Open 188 - Tweed Mafia - Over!

[farside22]

MrSuave, I'm starting to think you're scummy simply because of your overconfidence in the early game. Believe it or not, overconfidence is a scumtell. It's how I always catch KittyMo as scum, hehe.
Anyway,

Unvote. Vote: MrSuave.

You obviously seem to want my vote anyway.

Please explain better this post strike's me as cryptic.

@SC: What changed your mind from the two post below on KittyMo?

I want to be in a game with no RVS. Therefore, I will vote the next person to random vote.

Except that your reasoning for placing a vote will rely on the RVS's existence.

Vote: KittyMo.

A tad opportunistic, aren't we?

Since I apparently fail so much, what better plan would you like to grace us with?

Unvote: yabbaguy
Vote: KittyMo

If one plan for generating discussion fails, try another yourself. Don't ask people to generate discussion for you.

If kitty can keep up this intensity throughout she'll be an asset. If she can't than this will be a waste of our time. In general I agree with nik's assesment.

unvote, vote zach

. 39 and 41, taken together, rub me the wrong way. 39 is meta and 41 is defensive and meta.

@Lowell: What are your thoughts on KittyMo now?

@everyone: What is the best way to get out of RVS?

[Nikanor]

Having an abnormal amount of confidence is a scumtell, farside.

[Nikanor]

@everyone: What is the best way to get out of RVS?

Do something stupid.

[XScorpion]

@everyone: What is the best way to get out of RVS?

Do something stupid.

OK!

Unvote
Vote: XScorpion

[KittyMo]

Limited Access

until the new battery charger cable for my laptop comes in the mail. :<

Noted - DTM

[yabbaguy]

Do something stupid.

X

That's stupid.

[XScorpion]

NO U

[StrangerCoug]

@SC: What changed your mind from the two post below on KittyMo?

I want to be in a game with no RVS. Therefore, I will vote the next person to random vote.

Except that your reasoning for placing a vote will rely on the RVS's existence.

Vote: KittyMo.

A tad opportunistic, aren't we?

Since I apparently fail so much, what better plan would you like to grace us with?

Unvote: yabbaguy
Vote: KittyMo

If one plan for generating discussion fails, try another yourself. Don't ask people to generate discussion for you.

I saw little problem with KittyMo when she said she'd vote who wound up being me for random voting. I still don't, so obviously, the problem arose when she tried to get someone else to spark discussion, your second quote. I can't think of very many things that townies should be getting other people to do for them.

@everyone: What is the best way to get out of RVS?

I always considered the RVS over once someone made a serious vote, and that's a very good way to go about it.

XScorpion, would you like to be useful or should I switch my vote over to you?

[Zachrulez]

@everyone: What is the best way to get out of RVS?

Generally I will look for something to cast a serious vote on and try to get reactions and positions out of people.

[XScorpion]

unvote
Vote: StrangerCoug

You can vote me if you want, I don't mind.

[StrangerCoug]

Way to OMGUS anyway. But nah. I want to probe KittyMo a little more.

[XScorpion]

Aw why won't you vote me? Pretty please?

[Lowell]

I'd like to see some interest in a zach wagon if folks aren't doing anything other than telling jokes.

[farside22]

I'd like to see some interest in a zach wagon if folks aren't doing anything other than telling jokes.

I had a question on this page that I want an answer from you.

@Lowell: What are your thoughts on KittyMo now?

[Zachrulez]

I'd like to see some interest in a zach wagon if folks aren't doing anything other than telling jokes.

And I would like an answer to my question.

[MrSuave]

Nik, why do you not love me? is your new meta for scum against me ignoring me? D= you should just play normaly, and I might not notice you being a spy.

so far:

Nik town = nik hunting me down, even if it doesn't make sense (korlash + grim pokemon)

Nik scum = siding with me and being nice to me (classic wolf... thing... manbearpig)

This game: ignored! =O *sirens* I new challenger is aproaching!!!

the fact that you told me before that that would be the last time you use that meta on me, makes me wonder about this cold shoulder silent treatment D= this is why you are scum this game. GG Nik, dun QQ too much now =p

meta is overrated you know. I have this discussion so many times I feel like I'm on repeat. If a play is scum and knows what another player expects of them as town would they not act that way to ensure their townness.

yes, that would be the assumption. but this is a meta that has more than the proof on this mafia site. we (Nik and I) are RL friends, and he has never once spared me in a game, even if I was on his team. he is always out to get me, so that's why this has merit. yes, he continued his shinanigans in mafia, and when he broke away from that he was scum and I killed him for it =D. your argument has merit, but that only applies to people who mearly know one another in this game, or do not game together often. and yes, this does not mean that my whole case is perfect, but so far it has not failed me. and by your logic, Nik should be tunneling me right now, but alas, he is not.

Ah.
I'm confused then if you don't mind. You say as town he act as one way and as scum another. If he is acting in neither way how does that read for you about him?

well as you can see, right now I'm assuming he is scum. that is the logical conclusion. if A is not true, then B is the answer unless proven otherwise. and this would be my 4th game with Nik on this site, and even if we only count my games with him on the site, it still matches the meta I have for him. 2 games where he was "anti-Suave" he was town (I was scum in one, town in the other). The game where he swayed from that meta, in that case "being nice," he was scum(I was town obv. and we won =D). So his change in personality is what is giving me this scummy vibe about him.

MrSuave, I'm starting to think you're scummy simply because of your overconfidence in the early game. Believe it or not, overconfidence is a scumtell. It's how I always catch KittyMo as scum, hehe.
Anyway,

Unvote. Vote: MrSuave.

You obviously seem to want my vote anyway.

I'm sorry, but that is a case by case scumtell. just because that's how you catch KittyMo doesn't mean that that is a scumtell for me. infact, I have a game, several depending on how you look at it, where I am very confident about my claims =D. take example the mini normal labled Evil Eyes. I was a vig, and I was sure that Hoopla was scum, and I voted her right at the start for going against her town meta that I had for her. no one believed me, and it even pushed me to L-1. I ended up claiming, but we lynched someone else. I use my vig NK to kill Hoopla. she is scum. some other ones that I was sure about was my game with you that just finished. and guess what, I was right there too. all my other games where I'm sure about a vote, are based on gut, and I'm usually wrong there because I have no proof. but right now, I have my facts, and unless you give me a reason to believe otherwise, you are scum because the data says you are scum. period.

[Nikanor]

well as you can see, right now I'm assuming he is scum. that is the logical conclusion. if A is not true, then B is the answer unless proven otherwise.

So basically, guilty until proven innocent. They have a name for that, you know. It's called Texas Sharpshooting, and it's scummy.

I'm sorry, but that is a case by case scumtell. just because that's how you catch KittyMo doesn't mean that that is a scumtell for me.

Trust me, it's not case by case. It applies to everyone. Here's the reasoning, if you're interested:
Player A is town in Game A. He flails around a lot, not sure where to look for scum. This is because he is part of an uninformed majority, and he does not know the alignments of the other players.
Player A is scum in Game B. He is decisive and easily calls people scum. This is because he is part of an informed minority, and he does know the alignments of the other players, and can call someone town or scum without the uncertainty of being incorrect. This is where the confidence comes from.
I've applied this scumtell to other people, and I always get positive results. It's one of my more trusted (albeit less trusted by the rest of the players in games in which I happen to use this tell) tells.
However, it should be noted that this is a meta-based tell and requires Player A to have a general lack of confidence in a usual game.

but right now, I have my facts, and unless you give me a reason to believe otherwise, you are scum because the data says you are scum. period.

Yeah, your facts are wrong. Just because I tunneled you twice as town doesn't mean I'm going to do it every time.
Game A, where you were scum, my tunneling was justified (you turned out to be scum).
Game B, where you were town, I lynched you in lylo, but I'd hardly call that tunneling. Hell, I mentioned you in three out of my forty-two posts on day one in that game. I would hardly call that tunneling.
Game C, you were town, I was scum. I was only being nice to you because I wanted to keep the StrangerCoug-MrSuave cross-hate alive, otherwise I would have lynched you on day three. Don't try to paint this as the same sort of situation on page four.

[Nikanor]

I'm sorry, but that is a case by case scumtell.

Apologizing for no reason is scummy.

[MrSuave]

"However, it should be noted that this is a meta-based tell and requires Player A to have a general lack of confidence in a usual game."

does that not mean it IS a case by case scumtell? dudurp durp! contradiction much?

the second game, you still assumed I was scum, EVEN THOUGH I had claimed, and was even planning to try and save you because you were BP, and you almost screwed that up too. and as I stated, those were just examples on the site. I could give examples from brawl matches, monopoly, risk, pretty much any game we've played together you ALWAYS try to screw me over.

and that "I'm sorry" was not a serious apology, it was sarcastic. >_>

[Nikanor]

the second game, you still assumed I was scum, EVEN THOUGH I had claimed, and was even planning to try and save you because you were BP, and you almost screwed that up too. and as I stated, those were just examples on the site. I could give examples from brawl matches, monopoly, risk, pretty much any game we've played together you ALWAYS try to screw me over.

A) Your claim was scummy (you claimed miller with overpowered abilities who couldn't decide if he could use one or two actions per night).
B) There is no B).
In Risk, Monopoly, etc., screwing you over usually helps my win condition. Tunneling on you each and every time in mafia, however, does not help my win condition.
In rl mafia, the only time I actually lynched you was when you were scum. I'll admit that we only played three or four games together because the rest of the group failed at modding *shakes a fist at DTM*, but my point still stands.

and that "I'm sorry" was not a serious apology, it was sarcastic. >_>

I don't care what you say after the fact, you were appeasing the town, and that is scummy.

[MrSuave]

I cleared that ability thing up as well as I could. it was hard to tell with the bad descriptions of my skills.

a good example of when you don't care if you win or not, is in 2v2 brawl (we have FF off) and you don't care if you hit me. in fact, sometimes you TRY to hit me. how does that help your win condition?

and how was I trying to appease the town? I thought it was pretty obv sarcasm.

[Nikanor]

I cleared that ability thing up as well as I could. it was hard to tell with the bad descriptions of my skills.

Yes, but do you see what I mean when I say it was scummy?

a good example of when you don't care if you win or not, is in 2v2 brawl (we have FF off) and you don't care if you hit me. in fact, sometimes you TRY to hit me. how does that help your win condition?

Only when we're pretty much guaranteed a victory anyway.
Anyway, to steer this discussion back on-topic, the whole point of this argument was that you say I try to get you killed in every game where I'm town, while I deny that by saying you deserved to be lynched in those games. I'm refuting your point by providing evidence for why you did indeed deserve to be lynched there.
To provide more support for my argument with Game B where we were both town, I all but ignored you on day one, with only one question and one accusation (of Suave being chainsaw defended by another player, no more) shot your way. You're now accusing me of ignoring you on day one, three pages into the game, and claiming it doesn't fit my town meta. That does not fit the facts at all, and is quite frankly pretty scummy.

and how was I trying to appease the town? I thought it was pretty obv sarcasm.

It wasn't obvious. And saying it was sarcasm doesn't let you off the hook, either, to be clear.

[StrangerCoug]

Mod: Ill. I hope to recover soon.

Noted - DTMaster

I originally wanted to refrain from calling MrSuave scummy because I didn't see him behaving differently from my other game with him where he was town, but now I'm more willing to say he's scummy. Appeal to emotion and pointless discussion about non-Mafia games.

[Locke Lamora]

MrSuave: so Nik is the kind of person who, as scum, would rather go against the established town meta that you have of him and ignore you, as opposed to deliberately playing to that town meta? What's his motivation for that?

Nik: do you have any examples of MrSuave being overconfident as scum?

Getting a bad feeling from XScorpion. Self-voting, asking for votes - is there a point to this?

[Lowell]

@farside- I'm more or less uninspired by Kitty's recent play. She squirms too much for my liking, and overreacted to some mild comments. That said, KingMetaZach looks like a better option.

@zach- what question are you talking about?