Mini 885 - Boom, Game Gutshot/Abandoned by Mod!

[hitogoroshi]

5cvms opinion has changed over the course of the game and he's slowly becoming more coherent, I expect that trend to continue to a point. On the other hand I have a very strong scum read today.

I'd rather lynch somebody I'm 75% on day 1 then lynch someone I'm 15-20% on day 1. Especially when that 15-20% could change quite a bit by day 3

wait a golly gosh darned minute. 75%? Isn't your main point on Aran that he suggested we ignore 5cvm and then later changed his mind? Because that would just be a newbtell,

unless

you're postulating a 5cvm/aran scumteam. In which case, let's lynch 5cvm today and if he flips scum we can get aran tomorrow <3.

And squirrel, ask xvart on that one. I quite frankly don't see his connection as especially damning but that was the main reason xvart gave so that was the one I responsed to.

[xvart]

And squirrel, ask xvart on that one. I quite frankly don't see his connection as especially damning but that was the main reason xvart gave so that was the one I responsed to.

My point is Evilgorillaz originally said this:

the more I read 5cvm, the more sense his posts seem to make (unless he is setting up an elaborate gambit, to which I guess I have fallen for?).

I read this original post as saying he understood the content of his posts more. When asked to explain more, Evilgorrilaz said this:

I could explain what I think his posts mean, but then again I could be completely wrong because I'm not him.

I think hes just reacting to people reacting to his playstyle, which is why he finds some people (like hito) scummy.

Then again I'm not him, and you would probably be better off asking him what he means.

and this:

Point 2) I think hes just reacting to people reacting to his playstyle, which is why he finds some people (like hito) scummy.

I read these posts as first distancing himself by telling me to ask 5cvm about his playstyle and second saying 5cvm is reacting to others reacting to his playstyle. When EvilGorillaz first said he made sense of 5cvm's post and then says it is just a reaction to others I didn't see the connection that was originally implied.

xvart.

[hitogoroshi]

:3 so xvart, are you also postulating gorrilaz-scum based off of something that would only make sense if he was scum with 5cvm? because I have this fantastic idea about how we could go about checking that.

[ChiboSempai]

I'm so torn between wanting to lynch Aran and Hito. Hito's play is more just not helping town instead of being anti town though as time goes on. I'm with Button that if we're gonna lynch someone, it makes sense to lynch the person we have the highest scum read on - which is Aran.

Hito is doing whatever he can to sort of get us to lynch 5cvm though which really doesn't feel right. You're trying to force this idea of a policy lynch, but 5cvm isn't doing much besides rambling on about who his scumbuddies are. It's not helping town, but guess what - it's not hurting us. If anything it's more likely to hurt scum because if he happens to accidentally guess correctly (unless he is scum) saying someone else is scum, it might just bring unnecessary attention to them.

You try to use connections as well if we lynch 5cvm we can learn from his flip about gorrila, or we can learn about Aran from his flip. I agree with this, but you've got it backwards. Believe me, I've been considering this Aranfan <> 5cvm connection for a bit now, and if other people are as well...
Look at it this way, we can learn about 5cvm from Arans flip and we can learn about Aran from 5cvm's flip. So it doesn't matter really which one we lynch if we're aiming for information. HOWEVER, since it seems to be agreed here that we've got the scumtells on Aran and not as much on 5cvm (since he's just acting like an idiot, not anti town), then we lynch Aran first to learn about 5cvm for tomorrow, not the other way around.

[Scott Brosius]

We need to remove the distraction now, as it will just get worse on subsequent days and hinder our ability to scum-hunt. I gave my reads on other players, but 5cvm is being so anti-town it speaks for itself. I don't see another way to go D1.

[hitogoroshi]

It's not helping town, but guess what - it's not hurting us.

Guess what: if he's not helping town, he's hurting us. And more importantly, you seem to forget that 5cvm willingly chose his own playstyle. You have a player who you agree is not helping the town and you want to keep them alive. This boggles my mind.

Repeating another point I've made a thousand times, while we are getting information from the 5cvm lynch, I don't want him lynched because he's giving the most information. I want him lynched because he's not helping the town (which everyone agrees with) and will continue not helping the town forever (which I believe Button argued against, but I'm going to need to see serious evidence beyond '5cvm began refering to players beyond the three on his "scumlist"' to believe that one). How ****ing asinine is it that you want to lynch ARAN first for that one? 5cvm is being willfully anti-town. Think about those words. He is. deliberately. acting against. the best interests. of the town. And if you agree with this why-oh-why do you think we need to LEARN anything more?

Scott has compacted my crusade into a nice little tl;dr. thank you scott.

[5cvm]

With that said, I am finding Evilgorrilaz more and more scummy, with his sudden defense of 5cvm and lack of credible explanation for his defense. It is almost like he knows 5cvm is town and is trying to look like he is defending him now when his possible inevitable lynch is just around the corner.

I know you feel obliged to call people scum (so that you look like you're "scumhunting"), but you have this all wrong. I appreciate your use of my interaction with Evilgorrilaz to "hunt," and, yes, he did make a complete point-blank turnaround. But he's also been explaining himself. You should at least respond to the content of his explanation...

Post 301

That's not responding. If you want to look town, you should try to post logical stuff about what is going on, not "I read this as..." rewriting of people's posts and this...

When EvilGorillaz first said he made sense of 5cvm's post and then says it is just a reaction to others I didn't see the connection that was originally implied.

When he made this connection I didn't see the connection originally implied? Maybe this makes sense somehow but it's not clicking in

my

brain, at least.

EvilGorillaz didn't like me at first, and then decided what I was doing made sense. This is extremely towny. Scum (my scum buddies) aren't trying to make sense of me, they're simply taking the position they feel would benefit them most and sticking to it with all their might.

Thinking aranfan might be 5cvm scumbuddy

I can sort of see this, but sort of not... and he isn't... the only reason for you to think this would be a read, and when I go into iso to do my own read, that's not how it seems to me.

[5cvm]

5cvm is being willfully anti-town. Think about those words. He is. deliberately. acting against. the best interests. of the town.

For the sake of other people (since I'm pretty sure hitorogoshi is going to keep on doing what he's doing no matter what- he looks better that way), I should also comment on hitorogoshi.

He seems to think I could be either town or scum. Yet, somehow, he seems to think that if I was town, I would act against the town? What, does he think I would vote for someone and intentionally try to lose? That is madness. Or, at the very least, it's assuming I'm mad, a slightly mad act in itself, since I'm pretty sure I'm not.

[5cvm]

The town can all join me on an Xvart wagon! It'll be fun!

unvote, vote: xvart

TheButtonmen, you can join me too.

PS Don't you hate it when people split up what they have to say into a bunch of different posts?

[Humble Poirot]

My vote for 5cvm was because hito argued his point well enough to change my mind. Is changing one's mind scummy now?

If you don't explain convincingly how and why did you change your mind... yes it is.

The fact is that you totally flipped and are now willing to vote someone you thought was a jester.

EBWOP: Specifically, Hito convinced me that the benefit to the town of lynching 5cvm outweighed the benefit of keeping the Jester alive.

This is better. But we still need a lot more from you.

Who do you think is scum? why?

--------------
Ok. I'm going to forget my humbleness for a bit to deal with scott...

We need to remove the distraction now, as it will just get worse on subsequent days and hinder our ability to scum-hunt. I gave my reads on other players, but 5cvm is being so anti-town it speaks for itself. I don't see another way to go D1.

How the hell did you give your opinions on others?

You quoted #28 from xvart and said this: "Easy way to get out of RVS. Possible overreaction as scum here. "

You quoted #57 from xvart and said this: "
The sickening scum yet no vote is scummy. xvart---5cvm connection"

Then you said this: "I really don't like CS posts about discussing Jesters. They rarely occur and do not merit discussion D1. Very distracting. "

#168 from aranfan and said this: "The bolded part looks scummy. Almost as if he needs an excuse to vote and is attempting to "do a good thing for the game""

Then you voted 5cvm without having mentioned him before with this reasoning:
"I'm always on board for a policy lynch. It becomes too much of a distraction otherwise if we let him live. "


You haven't commented on anything in the game. You just said that 5cvm caused distraction and voted for him. We are not even sure if you even read the whole game.

Also, you clearly ignored my post.

I want to ask you. Is it lazyness? If so... why? Why did you join a game to post just 2 lines without a follow up and inmediatly vote someone to policy lynch them? Could you summarize the most important events of the game and what do you make of them?
----------------------------------

@ChiboSempai

: I'd like you to explain

beforehand

how do you think each flip (town/scum) of each player (5cvm, aranfan) would affect the other players (5cvm, aranfan, gorrila) and why? I'm strongly against lynching to get info on other people. It's a flawed premise. Why do you think you will get efficient information to decide someone's allignment?

In fact, I want anyone who pretends this info by flip is true to explain it in their own words too (hito, squirrel).

I repeat what I think. Deciding who to lynch based on connections without a flip is really open to scum manipulation and a direct way to fail.

Most of the suspicion on gorrilaz is based on the fact that he apparently likes 5cvm's play but has yet to defend his reasoning. But that's a lot of what-if that will condense into something far more tangible when 5cvm flips.

Wrong. EvilGorillaz hasn't added anything relevant to the game. He has been active lurking and not showing signs of scumhunting (Wich is what interests town. Scum doesn't need to do it. I know scum can fake it but sometimes they aren't able to do it), the same as this few posts by scott...
You, hito, despite going for the policy lynch (Something I don't like), have a lot of fervor and reasoning. You try to do what you think is best for town and firmly state it. You argue other arguments.

In two words: You try. That's why you're on my town list.

Evilgorillaz and newly replaced scott don't seem to be doing the same thing. That's why I'm very concerned about them. I'm also trying to figure Aranfan out.

Hito... you're doing it wrong... You keep talking about scumteams on d1... Bad idea. You keep trying to explain connections with no info on anyone and base your actions upon it.

@ChiboSempai:

Why would you lynch hito? Don't you feel he is earnest about the policy lynch? When you say "accidently guess correctly"... do you mean you think 5cvm might accidently be scum?

I'd like someone to prove me how scott is more helpful than 5cvm. With what we have so far.

I think 5cvm is town and I think he has potential to play pro-town (in his own unique way, but still). 5cvm is the easy lynch. We won't probably gain much from his flip. Scott has jumped on him without even commenting on the game and people are fine with it.

EvilGorillaz didn't like me at first, and then decided what I was doing made sense. This is extremely towny. Scum (my scum buddies) aren't trying to make sense of me, they're simply taking the position they feel would benefit them most and sticking to it with all their might.

So you think that saying you're town will help town more than scum? I had the impression that, right now, keeping you alive might be a nice scum move... For some reasons:
1) If you keep being anti-town you will keep hurting town
2) You will always be a great lynch candidate for many people.
3) If you're lynched (and flip town). They will be out of the mislynch waggon.

5cvm, the fact that you seem to play decently for a few secs and later fall back to your old lame jokes and unexplained votes makes me feel I can't blame hito for wanting to lynch you

He seems to think I could be either town or scum. Yet, somehow, he seems to think that if I was town, I would act against the town? What, does he think I would vote for someone and intentionally try to lose? That is madness. Or, at the very least, it's assuming I'm mad, a slightly mad act in itself, since I'm pretty sure I'm not.

You can't say this with a straight face. You've lost a great deal of credibility when you repeateadly ignored everyone and claimed scum every now and then. Unless you really start playing (with great reasons for everything you do and say) don't expect anybody to take you seriously.

[hitogoroshi]

Ooh, I really like hercule-town now.

I'd like to point out that I'm not going for a 5cvm to try to out other people. I was pointing out that both the cases on Aran and Evilgorrilaz simply don't work, logically, unless they are scumbuddies with 5cvm. Aran wanting to not lynch 5cvm and then changing his mind is not scummy, UNLESS 5cvm is his scumbuddy. Gorrliaz thinking 5cvm is town with no particular defense isn't inherently scummy, UNLESS 5cvm is his scumbuddy. I don't believe in those scumteams, but the fact remains that the main scum reads people are using ARE dependent on 5cvm scumteams. I'm not saying I think those reads are convincing!

And for the record I can totally understand where Scott is coming from. He just replaced in, it's kind of disorienting, and here is a player who needs to be lynched - it's an easy move to take, and it's what I would do in his situation regardless of role. It's hard to be certain about your scum reads replacing in d1, but it's pretty easy to understand the justification for a policy lynch, so while hopping on the policy wagon is an easy move for scum it's also a justified move for town.

But all the same, while I am not moving my vote from 5cvm today, I can still look at the other players. One thing I don't like about gorillaz is that his ISO 10 clearly shows he understands the reasoning behind a D1 policy lynch. In that case, yeah, he needs to do a fair bit of explaining because he's arguing the case that 5cvm is pro town, something that is pretty damn ridiculous. But as I said before, I can't think of any situation wherein Gorrilaz is scum, 5cvm is town, and this is a scumtell. What possible reason would a scum have to support a policy lynch on a townie, and then change their mind without warning? I suppose you could make the argument that Gorrilaz was suddenly trying to not be on a mislynch wagon, but tbh that's such a newb-scum move we can not follow it and be confident that Gorrilaz-scum will give up the game a different way D2 or something.

As for Aran, again, I dare anyone to come up with an interpretation where Aran is scum and 5cvm is town. Not every illogical thing is a scumtell, and to say 'X doesn't make sense, ergo the player who said it is scum' is just lazy.

[5cvm]

claimed scum every now and then

Wait, HP, you seem to be under the impression that I'm claiming town now. While I understand this impression (I mean, with my astounding play, how could I be anything but town?), I can't change what's in my role PM.

---

You try. That's why you're on my town list.

I understand this opinion, but I disagree with its surface meaning. I understand that somebody could play with that as their little mantra: People who try are town. However, it can be a severely misguided creed.

You underestimate scum. They can't scumhunt? Of course they can. "Scumhunting," the type that happens on day 1 with zero information, is painfully innacurate, scum can do it just as well as town can. If they hit their scum buddy, fine, it's "bussing," if they hit town, great, maybe people will follow onto the mislynch.

"But scum know who scum is so they'll be biased the whole time!"

Two things: First, we all have a little switch in our brains which lets us figure out what we

would

think if we didn't already know. It's part of what makes us humans smarter than lizards. Second, even if scum leaves that switch off and is completely controlled by who they already know is scum, they can still come up with reasons just as valid as the reasons town players provide. I'm happy to say that this could concievably change with alot of good players, but you've played and read games on MS just as well as I have, and you know that "scumhunting" ends up being "why I don't like this person" or "why this person was wrong about X" much more often than "why this person is scum."

"Fine, they can direct themselves at whomever they wish. But they won't have any motivation, hence 'people who try are scum.'"

Unless I'm overestimating the intelligence of your average mafiascummer, that's the first thing they think of is "In order to look town, I have to look like I'm really trying to help the town win." The solution? Well, it's easy to quote parts of people's posts and say snotty things back at them. You can even make it last for hundreds and hundreds of words if need be. If experience is any guide, that is one easy way to satisfy the "People who try are town" creed. It shouldn't be You can't let it be. Perhaps, knowing that, they move on to honest argument. This is where the switch comes in to play. Most people are significantly smarter than a lizard, and have a fairly reliable switch.

Honest

arguement doesn't tend to get far enough on this board for anyone's dishonest-honest argument skills to be significantly tested. Even if or when it does, there is a large grey area in which it is very hard to tell whether someone is arguing honestly dishonestly, considering we are using text. On a message board. No micro-expressions or nervous ticks here.

---

You can't say this with a straight face.

Wait,

if

I was town, do

you

think I'd intentionally try to lose? Maybe I need to seriously reevaluate the amount of faith people have in other players of mafia.

[Scott Brosius]

--------------
Ok. I'm going to forget my humbleness for a bit to deal with scott...

We need to remove the distraction now, as it will just get worse on subsequent days and hinder our ability to scum-hunt. I gave my reads on other players, but 5cvm is being so anti-town it speaks for itself. I don't see another way to go D1.

How the hell did you give your opinions on others?

You quoted #28 from xvart and said this: "Easy way to get out of RVS. Possible overreaction as scum here. "

You quoted #57 from xvart and said this: "
The sickening scum yet no vote is scummy. xvart---5cvm connection"

Then you said this: "I really don't like CS posts about discussing Jesters. They rarely occur and do not merit discussion D1. Very distracting. "

#168 from aranfan and said this: "The bolded part looks scummy. Almost as if he needs an excuse to vote and is attempting to "do a good thing for the game""

Then you voted 5cvm without having mentioned him before with this reasoning:
"I'm always on board for a policy lynch. It becomes too much of a distraction otherwise if we let him live. "


You haven't commented on anything in the game. You just said that 5cvm caused distraction and voted for him. We are not even sure if you even read the whole game.

Also, you clearly ignored my post.

I want to ask you. Is it lazyness? If so... why? Why did you join a game to post just 2 lines without a follow up and inmediatly vote someone to policy lynch them? Could you summarize the most important events of the game and what do you make of them?

I read the entire game. I'm not going to rehash points that have been beaten to death already (the useless Jester discussions). I gave my secondary scum suspects, but 5cvm needs to go. As I have said already, in my experience, distracting, anti-town players end up getting lynched D2 anyway, esp if we mislynch a town member D1. The anti-town player is sure to get strung up D2. I fail to see how we don't get information from the lynch if he flips town. It's not like he has been a lurking anti-town player, he has interacted with many people.

I'm not sure how I haven't commented on anything in the game? I gave my scum suspects with my vote going on the most obvious. It seems like you are almost coaching 5cvm, how do you think he has the potential to be pro-town. What in any of his posts merits saying that?

[5cvm]

Post 310 is an example of hitorogoshi's dishonest honest arguing skills being tested.

This

Not every illogical thing is a scumtell, and to say 'X doesn't make sense, ergo the player who said it is scum' is just lazy.

shows that he's a very smart guy, but this

But all the same, while I am not moving my vote from 5cvm today, I can still look at the other players.

and this

the case that 5cvm is pro town, something that is pretty damn ridiculous.

shows him dismissing or avoiding arguments that he doesn't want to get in to because he'd have to be dishonest.

This by the way is quite true:

I can't think of any situation wherein Gorrilaz is scum, 5cvm is town, and this is a scumtell. What possible reason would a scum have to support a policy lynch on a townie, and then change their mind without warning?

But isn't that good reason that Gorrilaz is town?

[Humble Poirot]

I repeat...

Hito... you're doing it wrong... You keep talking about scumteams on d1... Bad idea. You keep trying to explain connections with no info on anyone and base your actions upon it.

I know you're right when you say we can't say X is scum for interacting with 5cvm in a way that would make more sense if 5cvm was scum too...
But you can't try to clear them either. The thing is, we don't know 5cvm's allignment nor any of the other players in the game. So we can't try to clear or accuse someone by making up a connection + assuming his allignment. It's a flawed way of scumhunting.
I think that scumteam guessing might come near Lylo (specially if we have a scumflip) but not before. D1 is a great day to watch people's playstyles and see if they're focusing more on scumhunting, hiding, defending themselves, others or what. How they react, how convincing they sound, if they can argue and change their pov or act firmly on the first thing they say.

D1 is Read-day... We read individuals. Now, we must lynch the individual wich we think is more probably scum but never allow people to remain a complete null tell for the whole day. We need to know what everyone thinks about a big number of issues.
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PRE-EDIT: nice... more replies... I'll read them later... I need to work now...

[5cvm]

While I'm on the topic...

D1 is Read-day... We read individuals. Now, we must lynch the individual wich we think is more probably scum but never allow people to remain a complete null tell for the whole day. We need to know what everyone thinks about a big number of issues.

You're quite right, day 1 is read day.

But hiding is not at all automatically indicative of mafia membership (maybe he/she just has a lab report due friday...) and "scumhunting" is by no means the ultimate town tell. See part of my philosophical waxing above.

think that scumteam guessing might come near Lylo

Personally, when taking reads of alignment, I don't mind looking for interaction between scumbuddies. Sometimes it can be the most revealing thing. Maybe you think that scum interactions are not revealing. It's difficult to say who is right. I think, perhaps, precisely how you take your reads (and perhaps how accurate your reads are) comes down to personal intuition. Needless to say, no method is very accurate. You just hope that, when combined, the town's scum reads are strongest on actual scum.

As an example of the type of read that I really like, I'm going to quote DrippingGoofball from a game I just finished.

I'm been scum many, many times, and been part of a large number of scum teams. I know that no scum in their right mind would bulldoze into the game on what, page 1? the way Psycho did. It's a totally townie action. He doesn't care if he sounds like he's rolefishing or some such on his first or second post. I don't think he's experienced enough to fake it; in fact, I don't believe anyone is.

Now I don't expect anyone but me to give credence to this sort of experience-based "logic."

I, however, swear by it.

She even had to qualify herself, because she knew it wasn't the "ordinary" thing.

But she cought 2 out of 3 scum very early on. Quite impressive.

[hitogoroshi]

D1 is Read-day... We read individuals. Now, we must lynch the individual wich we think is more probably scum but never allow people to remain a complete null tell for the whole day.

Okay sweet, so you're gonna lynch 5cvm with me after all!

And 5cvm:

But isn't that good reason that Gorrilaz is town?

Nope! Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. What I'm saying is that the reasons people are offering to suspect Gorrilaz (and Aran) as scum are contingent on you being scum, not by any stretch that gorrilaz that is town.

[Aranfan]

My vote for 5cvm was because hito argued his point well enough to change my mind. Is changing one's mind scummy now?

If you don't explain convincingly how and why did you change your mind... yes it is.

The fact is that you totally flipped and are now willing to vote someone you thought was a jester.

EBWOP: Specifically, Hito convinced me that the benefit to the town of lynching 5cvm outweighed the benefit of keeping the Jester alive.

This is better. But we still need a lot more from you.

Who do you think is scum? why?

[Aranfan]

For the next five days I will be V/LA because of Finals.

[5cvm]

Nope! Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. What I'm saying is that the reasons people are offering to suspect Gorrilaz (and Aran) as scum are contingent on you being scum, not by any stretch that gorrilaz that is town.

Yeah my bad I realized after I posted that didn't exactly understand that sentence correctly. (Although what was that little catch phrase aboout absences and evidence? ^^ )

[Boxman]

Aranfan's V/LA is noted.

Vote Count 7 of Day 1

5cvm (4) - hitogoroshi, ConfidAnon, Aranfan, Scott Brosius
Aranfan (2) - TheButtonmen, ChiboSempai
Evilgorrilaz (2) - Humble Poirot, xvart
xvart (1) - 5cvm

Not Voting (3) - A_Squirrel, Evilgorrilaz, Seregil

[TheButtonmen]

Two point I feel need to be said, first off

@Hito

I was voting Arafan long before he voted 5cvm, My thinking he is scum has nothing to do with 5cvm, please stop trying to say it does. Secondly I think it's obvious I was correct in that 5cvm is becoming more useful over time. So Hito's "reason" for pushing the 5cvm vote is now clearly wrong, so Hito how about we lynch some scum now rather then continuing this rabid push for a policy lynch.

And to wrap it all up, Arafan is scum and needs a rope.

[xvart]

Sorry everyone, catching up now. Will post later tonight as time allows.

xvart.

[hitogoroshi]

Two point I feel need to be said, first off

@Hito

I was voting Arafan long before he voted 5cvm, My thinking he is scum has nothing to do with 5cvm, please stop trying to say it does.

Nothing to do with 5cvm. Really.

@Aranfan Eliminating someone as a possible scum because they are too scummy to be scum is a terrible idea! Sigh even if there was a a Jester; playing as a Jester is basically playing like scum (given that a jester wants to be lynched, thus they emulate scum). So if there was a jester there should be no way to tell their posts apart from scums. Thus to assume there's a jester and ignore scummy posts for being to scummy means you also ignore scum tells from the mafia.

That was about 5cvm.

MegaSuperConfirmUltraVote: Aranfan

Wow.... Just wow... In response to your statements, I have to ask you If being overtly scummy is a good way to not get lynched why would scum not be overt? Why would jesters want to be overt?

For reference the statement in question was:

@

Aranfan

Eliminating someone as a possible scum because they are too scummy to be scum is a terrible idea! Sigh even if there was a a Jester; playing as a Jester is basically playing like scum (given that a jester wants to be lynched, thus they emulate scum). So if there was a jester there should be no way to tell their posts apart from scums. Thus to assume there's a jester and ignore scummy posts for being to scummy means you also ignore scum tells from the mafia.

Except that Scum are trying to act like town so as to not get lynched. That means Jesters will be overt, while Scum will be covert. 5cvm is clearly and obviously a Jester, we can thus move on to hunting the real scum.

Although the question occurs as to who gets first place if the Jester lynched as the final anti-town faction.

This is all 100% about 5cvm.

@ Arafan you want to lynch a role who is a null tell (due to never having posted) rather then scum hunt. Every time you post you seem more scummy....

Okay, here is one (1) point about Aran that is not related to 5cvm.

Gorrilla is hitting my scumdar for saying that he can make sense of what 5cvm posts but refusing to share this insight with anyone else.

Exageration without supporting quote much?

You voted for 5cvm (a safe vote, a lot of people were in on that) and a policy lynch on someone who didn't even post. Yet you won't vote those you find suspicious.....

And here's one more.

So without 5cvm your case on Aran is that he's going for the policy lynch d1. On the lurker, I agree, that's an anti-town thing to do, and I'll keep that one in mind. But as I previously said, I disagree strongly with the idea that we should go for scum d1 and have to policy lynch later when it makes so much sense in the other order. I wouldn't call the second point a scumtell.

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Secondly I think it's obvious I was correct in that 5cvm is becoming more useful over time. So Hito's "reason" for pushing the 5cvm vote is now clearly wrong, so Hito how about we lynch some scum now rather then continuing this rabid push for a policy lynch.

You seem to be forgetting that

5cvm is and always has been claiming scum

. The fact that he is now talking about actual mafia theory does not mean he is contributing to the game at hand. He is not scumhunting because he will simply 'call out his scumbuddies' (and that I'm the informed sk, natch) when asked. The fact that he has gone from imbecilic to merely worthless is of no relevance. He is claiming scum and not scumhunting; that is not being useful to the town and the fact that he is 'more useful' because now he is having coherent thoughts means nothing. If you want to talk about mafia theory, there's a forum for that, but to be useful in the game you have to hunt scum. 5cvm (1) has claimed scum and (2) is not going to hunt scum. How exactly am I clearly wrong for voting him?

[TheButtonmen]

@ Hito

None of those points have anything at all, whatsoever do with 5cvm's alignment, if he flips town or scum all of those points still stand.