Mini 873 Plainview Game Over

[MordyS]

Some things on their own (like if you made the argument) aren't as troublesome in the context of a larger case. Sanjay had been attacking foilist13 all day. One slightly iffy case didn't raise my suspicions because of that broader context. If you had made that case, it would be scummy tho because it would be one piece.

That's the answer. Now keep to your deal. And answer my questions.

[Papa Zito]

You've invoked my name a couple of times now, so I feel the need to respond.

1) Cruelty is suspicious because Papa Zito found him suspicious, and MordyS trusts Papa Zito's opinion as a result of him having lead the wagon on Muffin.

This is completely and utterly bogus, especially since Papa Zito has said himself several times that he didn't actually have a strong scum read on Muffin. That Papa Zito happened to hit scum is no indication whatsoever of how good his read is on the game, since he never claimed to have thought Muffin was scum, meaning that Muffin's flip doesn't make PZ "right". And even if it did, this is an extremely lazy reason to find someone suspicious.

You're twisting this out of proportion. Let's review.

I didn't have a strong scum read on anybody, and why should I... it was Day 1 of a game I'd replaced into. I did, however, have a pair of competing wagons, one on a claimed (unchallenged) Doc and one on a player whose case I didn't really believe in.

Like I said earlier, I felt like I was facing a false dichotomy scenario... that the scum had quietly led the town around into a pair of wrong choices. That led me to casting my gaze elsewhere.

If you go back you'll notice I started popping questions at SpyreX. He wasn't receiving any attention at all and was quite capable of engineering what I described. But then I noticed that we had a player lurking, near deadline, with the false dichotomy looming.

This raised a huge red flag.

I'll admit that I didn't have much of an issue with Muffin. This was entirely about SocioPath and his lack of presence in thread. It grew more egregious as he posted in other games and avoided this one. Why replace into a game and refuse to participate? It was simply too off.

I'm a mostly gut player. I tend to do my best work early on in games before I start trying to puzzle things out logically. But that doesn't mean I don't have a basis for my actions. The above was my basis for this one.

Now, to the above. You keep saying Muffin, and I've said earlier that my issue was with SocioPath, not Muffin, so to keep repeating Muffin strikes me as disingenuous at best and scummy at worst. I also don't like how you're attempting to downgrade my scumhunting abilities here. Obviously I'm not a cop with guilties and innocents but that doesn't make my scumhunting crap either. Finally, to your last point... If nobody listened to or agreed with each other, despite not knowing alignments, then bandwagons would never form and we'd never lynch scum. So it's not "lazy" it's a freaking natural occurrence of the game.

/rant

[MordyS]

And here goes my connection. I've got access on my phone, so I might contribute short posts, but it's not conducive to long sprawling quote-filled posts. Anyway, things I'm waiting for: foilist13 to respond to my questions, archaebob to respond to my questions. ttfn!

[peanutman]

@Foilist, why did you say :

It now seems as though this is realistically between MordyS and Archaebob, and I am inclined to choose MordyS.

Before your vote, Bob was at 3, Cruelty was at 3, Mordy was at 1. After your statement, Mordy's wagon was tied with cruelty's (because of your flip) behind Archae's 3-vote wagon. What bothers me about it all is that you have presented a false situation. You spoke as if the choice was either Mordy or Bob. However, there was but one vote on Mordy (Bob's OMGUS). Are you supporting whatever Bob says because he doesn't think you're scum anymore? In that same idea, why do you seem to be Bob's sidekick as of late?

More importantly, why did you ignore any pressure on Cruelty and falsely claim the choice was between only Mordy and Bob? You are unnecessarily narrowing the town's focus? Worst of all, your underlying reason to look into and vote Mordy was because you were comparing only those two. I would ask you if you think Mordy is the scummiest right now, but I feel I already know that answer. However, was Mordy the scummiest in your eyes when you wrote post 1156?

[archaebob]

Additionally, archaebob, you now have three outstanding questions that I've asked you and you have not yet answered: 1) Why did you decide scum was on the Muffin wagon? 2) Please quote the attack Sanjay made on his scum buddy the last game, quote the one he made this game, and show the tone similarity 3) What do you think of Peanut's claim on its own merits. Not because you have a town read on him out of PoE?

1) I never decided this. I said I was becoming increasingly more suspicious that this might be the case. This is because I didn't feel like I could reconcile the speed and randomness of the Socio wagon with only town players having been involved. However, I've never pursued this seriously as an argument, so I'm rather surprised that you need to me answer it so badly.

2) I specifically said that this was a null tell. I'm not going to quote it and anlayze it for you, because it was based purely on a gut read. I haven't pursued this argument as a point of any kind, and i find this ridiculous.

3) That's not how I operate. I immediately decided that lynching peanutman was a very poor idea, so my mental energy shifted elsewhere. I honestly can't say what I think about it, since I can't imagine what it would be like if i didn't think lynching peanutman was lunacy. I can only guess that I'd be rather skeptical.

[archaebob]

@ Papa Zito -

i wasn't downgrading your scum-hunting, I was simply saying that the socio lynch was not an example of it. You have since indicated that this is incorrect, so I retract the statement.

But even all this aside, I still find the fact that MordyS used your suspicions of cruelty as a reason for suspecting him, because he "trusts" you, to be weird. Do you?

If you don't mind me asking, how are feeling about Mordy vs. me in general?

Also, you never answered this:

@ everyone

: does the fact that Muffin was trying to get cruelty lynched Day 1 at all mitigate the chances of his being scum?

@ Sanjay -

Nice try.

And props for finding a person you could drop your vote on without needing to take a stand in this little battle.

@ peanutman -

You don't like me. I follow you. Please don't let that blind you. I haven't been inconsistent with my play. MordyS has. At least look carefully at everything I and he are saying before making your decision.

Regarding foilist:

Not sure what the hype is about, besides the fact that he's the only one who agrees with me. I agree that his saying that this is down to just me or Mordy is stupid, but being stupid is consistent with his play. How is this suddenly a big deal, when he have long gotten over all the stupid things he said yesterday?

@ PharieM -

I'd love some input.

@ AGM -

Don't even think about trying to lurk right now. Who do you find most suspicious and why?

[archaebob]

Some things on their own (like if you made the argument) aren't as troublesome in the context of a larger case. Sanjay had been attacking foilist13 all day. One slightly iffy case didn't raise my suspicions because of that broader context. If you had made that case, it would be scummy tho because it would be one piece.

That's the answer. Now keep to your deal. And answer my questions.

You skipped all the points you ignored the first time yet again.

C'mon people, this should be right around the time where I start convincing you. Look at MordyS's reactions to my attacks on him. Does this seem like town?

I've got moar, much much moar, but i don't want to flood the thread until everyone is caught up. Can everyone stake out their current position, and vote? We are nearing deadline after all.

Side note: if everyone's current position is still to lynch me, then I guess i'd actually prefer if you don't ALL vote at once. L-2 is fine though, for reals. I want to see the landscape of opinions, as it is now.

[Sanjay]

@ Sanjay -

Nice try.

And props for finding a person you could drop your vote on without needing to take a stand in this little battle.

EXCUSE ME?

How am I not taking a stand in this little battle? At all?

I have a town read on MordyS and a town read on you. While I have enough town reads that at least one of them is undoubtedly wrong, I really don't see why either of you should be the lynch today.

Come on, archaebob.

[MordyS]

You skipped all the points you ignored the first time yet again.

I said ask a question and I'll answer it. Seriously, is there something wrong with you? I don't wanna sound rude, but this is getting annoying. Ask a question, I'll answer it. If you have a case, state it.

(Side note: Borrowed a friend's power cord, so I'm back in business.)

[MordyS]

On reflection, that was rude. Archaebob: State your case. Ideally in an easy to read list. Stop claiming you have more without writing it. Stop claiming I'm avoiding questions without saying exactly which questions I'm avoiding. Doing these things is scummy and make me feel good about my vote.

[AlmasterGM]

I have to produce 20 pages of text on Plato's Republic by tomorrow at 4:30. There will be no more posts until then.

[AlmasterGM]

From me, that is.

[archaebob]

@ MordyS-

Why is that, Mordy? Why am I scummier than cruelty? If you had some reason for thinking me scummier, it isn't even remotely clear from the thread.

I also don't understand why you left foilist out of your list of possible scum candidates.

You also need to show where I have been hysterical, and have reacted badly, rather than asserting that I have.

Ok, here's the question format, just for you.

1) Can you explain the contradiction in your stance regarding foilist, as outlined in the wall which the bolded quote is from? Can you also explain why you ignored this point twice? I find it difficult to believe that you missed it.

2) Can you please do what I said you should do in that last sentence.

There is no way you missed that, they were the first things in my last long post about you Mordy. Why so dodgy?

[archaebob]

I'm especially interested in this notion that foilist and I might be scum-buddies. First of all, I've already shown why this is idea is retarded, which I'll link to here.

Secondly, if Mordy actually was still entertaining the idea of foilist being scum (even despite the fact that foilist was on the socio wagon), it makes no sense at all that he would leave foilist out of his list of possible scum candidates in that first post I quoted just now. This is a major inconsistency.

You totally ignored this second point.

[MordyS]

Well, I want to lynch someone who wasn't on the wagon. I think I've said that a number of times. That's why I wasn't considering foilist13 for today. As for as acting hysterically, though you may actually not be able to see it, you've made a lot of awful cases and bad arguments -- which suggests to me that you're discombobulated. This is what I've been observing throughout the last couple pages.

This is seriously the big thing I've dodged, dude? I haven't dodged a thing. You need to read more carefully. Actually, can I recommend you read over this entire day? If you're town, I suspect you'll have a post in about twenty minutes about how you need to reevaluate everything you've thought. Almost everything you've said has been hysterical.

[archaebob]

@ Sanjay -

You've said my logic today was ridiculous. The only example you've cited was my interpretation of the Chinaman/Muffin dialouge. I agree, that was a little ridiculous. But you'll notice that i've since retracted that argument, at the expense of a significant amount of face, and "political capital", which I supposedly covet so much. Is this the extent of things you find illogical about me?

You can appeal to my emotions as much as you want, Sanjay, but you haven't demonstrated in any capacity why my attacks on MordyS are at all invalid. If you think I'm ridiculous, prove it. I'm inviting you to defend Mordy, since you've decided that he's town. Until you have explained why you aren't at all irked by the contradictions I have brought up in Mordy's play, i consider every assertion you have made regarding my being "ridiculous", "illogical", or even "wrong" to be a scum-tell.

And i really don't buy your foilist vote. Again.

[archaebob]

Well, I want to lynch someone who wasn't on the wagon. I think I've said that a number of times. That's why I wasn't considering foilist13 for today. As for as acting hysterically, though you may actually not be able to see it,

you've made a lot of awful cases and bad arguments

-- which suggests to me that you're discombobulated. This is what I've been observing throughout the last couple pages.

This is seriously the big thing I've dodged, dude? I haven't dodged a thing. You need to read more carefully. Actually, can I recommend you read over this entire day? If you're town, I suspect you'll have a post in about twenty minutes about how you need to reevaluate everything you've thought.

Almost everything you've said has been hysterical

.

Show of hands, how many people actually agree with the bolded?

I'm just curious.

[MordyS]

Until you have explained why you aren't at all irked by the contradictions I have brought up in Mordy's play, i consider every assertion you have made regarding my being "ridiculous", "illogical", or even "wrong" to be a scum-tell.

I think I've answered every "contradiction."

[archaebob]

@ MordyS -

And I'm not going to be re-evaluating anything at this point. Not this time.

Your post at the top of this page is the scummiest concession of guilt I have ever seen in a response to a case.

Everyone, read my big post at the bottom of the last page, and Mordy's response at the top of this one. Please.

@ Sanjay -

I especially want to hear your comments regarding Mordy's response at the top of the page. [/b]

[MordyS]

lol. Whatever dude. Either you're scum or awful town. In either case, I want you lynched today.

[archaebob]

Re: Archaebob, let's not lynch a townie just because he screwed up. I still have a solidly town read on him (much having to do with his defense of foilist) and I think he authentically believed Muffin was town. It doesn't make any sense to me that at L-1, with a lynch all but guaranteed, Muffin's scumbuddy tries to defend him. That's the time to bus (and bus, I believe, happened). In fact, I'm willing to bet that among the people attacking Archaebob at the moment, there are scum. So I think cruely and peanutman would each make a good lynch today. They're both trying to take advantage of what looks - to me - like innocent townie error - and turning it into a mislynch. If I'm right about who is scum, that would make one of them a fail townie and the other scum. (If they're both scum, well, yay.)

What happened to this, Mordy? And i'm not talking about between then and

now

. I'm talking about between then and the time you first voted me.

[MordyS]

My peanutman case disappeared? You're asking why I didn't default to cruelty? I basically flipped a coin after peanutman claimed cop to determine my next target. You came up. So I pushed a little and you went nuts.

Archaebob: Is it fair to say that if I hadn't attacked you, you wouldn't be so convinced I'm scum? Doesn't that make you a wee bit suspicious of yourself?

[Sanjay]

You really flipped a coin, MordyS?

[MordyS]

Well, no. I was using that as a turn of phrase. I did pick archaebob freely. I couldn't say exactly why, but my gut said attacking him might turn something up. But very a miniscule feeling. It was practically 50/50 in my head.

[archaebob]

@ Mordy -

Interesting.

Re: Archaebob, let's not lynch a townie just because he screwed up.

I still have a solidly town read on him (much having to do with his defense of foilist) and I think he authentically believed Muffin was town. It doesn't make any sense to me that at L-1, with a lynch all but guaranteed, Muffin's scumbuddy tries to defend him. That's the time to bus (and bus, I believe, happened). In fact, I'm willing to bet that among the people attacking Archaebob at the moment, there are scum. So I think cruelty and peanutman would each make a good lynch today.

They're both trying to take advantage of what looks - to me - like innocent townie error - and turning it into a mislynch. If I'm right about who is scum, that would make one of them a fail townie and the other scum. (If they're both scum, well, yay.)

If the bolded was true, then why on earth would you flip a coin when peanutman was removed from the picture?