Flash Mafia: You won!

[mikeburnfire]

iso 9 is the "I think ray is scum and rolf is his scumpartner, so I guess Ill vote rolf" wtfpost. Pom is definitely not thinking very much in who she is voting.

Or, it could be that she was trying to shift the wagon off of her partner. It would also explain why she jumped off the Ray-wagon so quickly.

I like your arguments, tajo, but not so much the "trusting somebody she just called scum" part. Seems like she was responding to elvis, not rofl.

I seemed to have not been clear:

I'm fine with being lynched.

I don't really agree with the vig shooting one of you stuff.

So, you only read the first six words of that 42-word sentence. Just couldn't finish reading the whole thing, huh?

Quick list of reads, since I'm gonna die:

You're only at two votes. By the way, I like how you're 'final' act of scumhunting is a one-sentence post for half the players, and calling out lurkers. And by "I like" I actually mean "I'm annoyed by"

[Pomegranate]

Sigh, me no likes being ignored.

Case on Plum.[/qoute]

Pom.

iso 2 and iso 3: after mbd attacks frost, spyrex and pom, she defends weakly with a)I didnt know my vote was the third and b)yeah mufasa acted strange but not scummy, but scum also try to avoid conmotion, but this its wifom, so yeah, not a solid stance. Also, yeah, that change of intensity regarding mbf's towniness is still weird.

iso 4 through 8 are total active lurking.

Check the timestamp of my vote on Mufasa. Also, he acted strange, but I don't have a meta on him- I don't know how normal it is.

One was about meta, one was answering a question of yours, and some others. It wasn't can o' content, but it was relevant (enough).

iso 9 is the "I think ray is scum and rolf is his scumpartner, so I guess Ill vote rolf" wtfpost. Pom is definitely not thinking very much in who she is voting.

Actually, I thought about that vote more than usual. I always get attacked for jumping on BWs(, in fact, look at an earlier attack of yours on me). I decided to vote who thought his buddy was.Then I reread, and someone pointed out how useless my vote was, so I thought more, and voted Ray.

iso 10 is a quick response due to elvis and rolf pressure. Pom unvotes rolf and votes ray. I mean, why would I trust someone I just called scum?

Who says I trust him?

iso 13 is a yeah, ray claim. Pom definitely adds some pressure to the wagon. Why is this important? See below.

iso 16 is still Pom supporting the wagon supporting the green crayons case and the terrible defense point.

But iso 18 is bye ray, hi spyrex. Notice the unvote and the posterior HoS. Why the unvote? Did Ray convince you he was town? Why the Spyrex HoS? Those posts were not even scummy...

iso 19 through 23. No more mention of ray. Not even a why. So what do I think? Pom pushed hard for a Ray wagon until it dissolved. Does she seem like a player that really thought ray was scum? Definitely not.

I got suspicious of Spyre. (I think it could be that I'm not used to his playstyle.) I was confused by his posts and attacks. I thought an HoS was in order.I decided to unvote Ray for the moment, and see how he acts now. I think his lynch me attitude is strange.

Also, Ray, where do the rest of us fall? Why did you leave us out?

[crypto]

I'm curious to what specifically you're referencing that one should glean from a reread of the thread.

Gosh, I don't know, maybe I was suggesting that Snow_Bunny point out the part where I said I believed RayFrost's fake claim.

you actually outright admitted that the Ray voting was a better path to follow

Nope. Reread. That's not what I said. It being good does not make it

better

. Hopefully there is more than one mafioso in this game. I am not obliged to vote for every player I find scummy (if I did, the mod's head might explode).

Your attacks are getting crummier by the minute. Keep them coming. Actually, no, don't keep them coming; I'm getting tired of them.

[RayFrost]

I seemed to have not been clear:

I'm fine with being lynched.

I don't really agree with the vig shooting one of you stuff.

So, you only read the first six words of that 42-word sentence. Just couldn't finish reading the whole thing, huh?

Quick list of reads, since I'm gonna die:

You're only at two votes. By the way, I like how you're 'final' act of scumhunting is a one-sentence post for half the players, and calling out lurkers. And by "I like" I actually mean "I'm annoyed by"

Yeah, it was oh so tl;dr.

Eh, I agreed with lynching me. Feel free to do so.

How I see it:

1. I'm a distraction

2. if I remain in the game, I'll just lead to the town having brawl outs over me every day, better to get rid of me early to everybody can deal with finding scum

[crypto]

It's a simple question, Snow_Bunny. You just posted in another game. Please take five seconds to answer said simple question in this game.

[Green Crayons]

(Bangs head on keyboard.) No. It's not about what I think of Ray before/after his claim.

Stop! Yes. This. Right here. It's

not

about what you think. I haven't criticized you about what you think. I've criticized - repeatedly, now - about the formation of your question. This has nothing to do with what you do or do not think. My criticism has been about the actual content of your question which, because of how it was phrased, warped any response into admitting that Ray's vanilla claim somehow excused his scummy behavior. I'm not the one conflating the flawed premise displayed in your question with what you, the player crypto, do or do not believe.

Nope. Reread. That's not what I said. It being good does not make it

better

. Hopefully there is more than one mafioso in this game. I am not obliged to vote for every player I find scummy (if I did, the mod's head might explode).

Your posts:

Ah, okay.

Guys, I like the RayFrost wagon and

if necessary

I'ma let it finish, but can we please wagon AGOTI now?

Actually, no, to be frank I like the Ray wagon better than I thought.

RayFrost's preemptive Snow White lurker vote was lame.

The bolded portion connects these two posts that were made two minutes apart. You initially expressed an interest in Raywagon but you still wanted girl pressure. You then come in and correct yourself, explaining that you like the Raywagon better than you previously thought. The fact that you initially were comparing Raywagon vs. girlwagon, decided in favor of girl pressure then came back to bolster support of Ray is a firm basis of understanding you supported Raywagon better than a nebulous girlwagon. Compound that with the fact that you have since dismissed your girl support and we're left with you thinking the Raywagon is a swell and grand idea - but, still, no vote.

Your attacks are getting crummier by the minute. Keep them coming. Actually, no, don't keep them coming; I'm getting tired of them.

Attacks? I was critical of your horrible loaded question and then questioned your nebulous support of a Ray lynch. Hardly attacks. I happen to think your town.




Done for the evening. See you folks on the morrow.

[Pomegranate]

My opinion on the AGOTI wagon: I saw crypto's case, and it didn't convince me. I'd call her neutral.

We need to see more of: Rofl, AGOTI, Snow White.

[mikeburnfire]

1. I'm a distraction

2. if I remain in the game, I'll just lead to the town having brawl outs over me every day, better to get rid of me early to everybody can deal with finding scum

Okay, but like I said... you've only got two votes. If you're really town and you want to win this game (and why would you join if you didn't), then contribute more.

[Snow White]

I was preciously voting AGTOI but its not registered. Oh wel i prob fucked up somewhere along the line

unvote

anyway just incase because i think he votes are accumulating and im nto sure why yet.

@RayFrost. Snow Whites been doing assignments until 5am this morning. Thats where Snow White's been. *head desk* Ill be nicer in the

morning

later in the day.

Post is due then.

ps/Id much prefer if Ray was left alive, for the minute (fight goddammit*providing yor town*!! You havent been tunnelledvisioned that hard have you?!?) why so resolute in you being the lynch dish of the day?

pps. you mother f*ckers. I do write up when im not able to get as much access as normal and ive been called out on it by Elvis_Knits, RayFrost and Pome. Please read!! *grumble grumble*

[Porochaz]

Ok so having read over, Ray is looking pretty bad, will wait for his response to GC before I act upon it though, rofl isnt looking so bad anymore, shifting him into the "neutral" zone (heaven forbid) So currently its a toss up between AGOTI and Ray... and Im waiting for Rays response so

vote AGOTI

Poro, what exactly were your reasons for your girl vote in this post?

Replying as I go through,the posts, if you look at my previous posts that will give you the reasoning why Im voting AGOTI at that point in time. I was holding off my vote until I had read rofl and ray more closely.

[Porochaz]

Now, I'm gonna be THAT GUY again and say I'm not seein the AGOTI business either.

To be honest, I lost more and more interest in my AGOTI case as I compiled it. It makes some valuable points, but overall I'm rather indifferent toward most of my own case. (I was sort of loath to admit this because I wanted to see how AGOTI replied and because, frankly, I was ticked off about it.) My gut feeling is still there about AGOTI, though – not the "I just know something's wrong about this person" feeling, but the "I don't like how this person's playing overall, even if I can't entirely put my finger on it" feeling.

Oh, and I stumbled across this while rereading: I don't know if I said it before (I know others did) but AGOTI did a really bad OMGUS of Poro. It's incredibly lame to the point where I don't even know why scum – especially experienced scum, assuming AGOTI is an alt of a vet player – would try it.

Firstly, I dont think its an alt of a vet player. Well if you were to look at my list of 5, the person I have at 1, makes it not a vet player, the other 4 yes it technically does. However that isnt the point of this post

My reread since I last posted has brought up something... which is related to what GC is saying in 330, when you wrote up your case, crypto, and became more disenchanted by it, why did you still post it? let alone vote for her? let alone vote... but you keep your vote on AGOTI until page 11, despite saying before that, that you dont particularly like your case... Im smelling serious bullshit here...

Also why is the excuse of being "a veteran" player being used to dismiss theories, especially one against an alt who we dont know who it is? Thats really stupid. Veteran players make mistakes too and to go "Oh, they meant to do that, they are a veteran player" is so incredibly dumb. Stop doing it.

In other news, vigging GC would be incredibly stupid. Vigging MBF would be a waste but not as stupid. Try AGOTI, Ray, someone whos currently in the background - ie tajo rofl etc, crypto (who apart from anything else I have a lost a lot of respect for, for the multi one word posts)

Im happy with Poms reply to tajos case, notice not many have commented on it so far. However in regards to her

@Pom,

did you read other peoples beyond cryptos case on AGOTI? I made a couple of posts and I believe elvis did also.

Im happy with the Ray wagon, am happy to go back to it. Im also interested in AGOTI actually posting, same with rofl who has disappeared. Most interested in crypto coming in answering to GC and explaining about his wishy-washy-ness regarding AGOTI and why he continued to vote her despite not believing his own case and by his own admission called out a list of people... Im also interested as to why he feels that scummy behavour can be let off if your a vet:

Oh, and I stumbled across this while rereading: I don't know if I said it before (I know others did) but AGOTI did a really bad OMGUS of Poro. It's incredibly lame to the point where I don't even know why scum – especially experienced scum, assuming AGOTI is an alt of a vet player – would try it.

[mykonian]

Vote count

A girl on the internet(2): Porochaz, Snow_Bunny
Snow_bunny(3): Roflcopter, Rayfrost, crypto
Rayfrost(2): Green Crayons, mikeburnfire
Porochaz(1): A girl on the internet
Mikeburnfire(1): Spyrex
Pomegranate(1): Populartajo
crypto(1): Elvis_knits

Not voting (2): Snow white, Pomegranate.

with 13 players, it is 7 to lynch

prodding rolfcopter

[Green Crayons]

Replying as I go through,the posts, if you look at my previous posts that will give you the reasoning why Im voting AGOTI at that point in time. I was holding off my vote until I had read rofl and ray more closely.

Yeah, I only found Post 154. From there the only real sticking points you make are that 1. you don't like girl's Bunnyvote reasoning and 2. you don't like girl using absolutes in her post 133. You take some issue with page number specifics but seem to dismiss that immediately and there's some confusion about productivity but that doesn't really seem to have any undertones of suspicion.

Am I correct in this assessment or did I miss something?

[elvis_knits]

pps. you mother f*ckers. I do write up when im not able to get as much access as normal and ive been called out on it by Elvis_Knits, RayFrost and Pome. Please read!! *grumble grumble*

I don't think I did this?

---

MBF hasn't said anything about my post 282, or tried to explain his obvious OMGUS reaction.

Also, and someone might have said this already, his play re: mufasa was pretty scummy.

Well, this is certainly stupid. Mufasa is at lynch-2 and it's not even page 3. I mean, I suppose I should be happier that stuff is happening, but this is just silly.

Mufasa, were you being serious when you claimed to be vanilla townie? Or were you just trying to start the pot?

Notice how he says the wagon is horrible, but he's more than happy to get a claim, and wants to make sure the claim wasn't just a joke. So he is simultaneously derailing the wagon, and fishing for role information on the same person. There is literally no reason you should be fishing for role information on someone when you think the wagon on them is crap. Oh, unless you're scum.

unvote; vote mikeburnfire

[Snow_Bunny]

Why did you like the Ray wagon?

After a quick read, Ray is top scummy. Mostly same reasons Crypto said (questions trying to look pro-town, vote on SW, bad vibe in general).

RF is scum. His playstyle has been scummy at best, and his last posts and his defence against GC's post just don't make it. I'd hammer, but I still think is too early to end the day.

I never voted for Ray, as by the time I'd vote I would either put him at L-2 (I think) at page 5 or so, or L-1/hammer.

Actually, no, I have a better idea: Read the thread.

If you actually read the thread, you would know why I like Ray's wagon and wouldn't need to ask.

Also, point out where I state that believe his claim.

Here:

Why did you want to lynch Ray after his vanilla townie claim?

The way the question is asked, it seems as if you believe his claim. Maybe your intentions were different, but sadly for you, I still can't read minds (and much less from far away), and I read it as it is written. For me, you are believing his claim and you are asking me why I want to lynch him after that. Simple, I don't believe his claim. His playstyle before the claim was scummy at best, and, as GC said, scum has been known to claim everything. A claim won't fix that.

"Why do you still want to lynch Ray?" that would have been fine. In fact, I would love for Bunny to answer that question, especially in light of her vote not being on Ray.

Well, nothing has changed from my read on him, but I'm finding AGOTI a better lynch for today. Not that I'd be disappointed if Ray ended up being it, btw.

It's a simple question, Snow_Bunny. You just posted in another game. Please take five seconds to answer said simple question in this game.

Quick fact about me: Just because I'm on the site, and I replied to another game means that I will reply to all my games. Sometimes I don't find anything good to add; other times I just don't have the time or motivation to reply; other times I'm just reading in my spare time.

[crypto]

This Is Madness, Poro

Try AGOTI, Ray, someone whos currently in the background - ie tajo rofl etc, crypto

Yeah, me and populartajo are totally in the background. Going after AGOTI and Snow_Bunny is totally in the background. Making a case about Pomegranate that's been repeatedly ignored is totally in the background.

(who apart from anything else I have a lost a lot of respect for, for the multi one word posts)

Hyperbole more. Melodrama more. You had null respect for me in the first place. My outrage at one player answering for another (which is a universal no-no on MS, and even then he could have had his say

after

Snow_Bunny responded to the same effect) and my ill-advised use of five posts (five whopping posts! – the world is ending! – crypto has ruined the purity of this thread! – I have never seen such horrible asshattery! – never again will I respect him as I did before!) for extra emphasis where one would have been sufficient were completely undeserving of your oh-so-deep response, which is completely irrelevant to the game itself and therefore a shameless sideways potshot dangled off the rump of your post. Regardless, your hyper-focus contradicts your statement that I'm lurking in the background or whatever. Make up your mind, Porochaz. Am I in the background or am I a trigger-happy ass clogging the game? You can't have both.

Now stop flailing.

I never voted for Ray, as by the time I'd vote I would either put him at L-2 (I think) at page 5 or so, or L-1/hammer.

What does that have to do with whether or not you liked the wagon? Stop dodging the question.

Your simultaneous attachment to the AGOTI wagon and obsession with loss of pressure on RayFrost are scummy and contradictory. You didn't say that the Ray wagon was good but that AGOTI should be lynched instead. You just complained about the decline of the Ray wagon. There's a distinct difference between the two.

If you actually read the thread, you would know why I like Ray's wagon and wouldn't need to ask.

I know, that's why it's such an easy question. I want you to tell me why Ray is scummy and why you like his wagon. I don't know if you've updated your opinions. Opinions usually get updated in Mafia.

The way the question is asked, it seems as if you believe his claim.

Not at all. I think I worded my question as plainly as possible. Stop piggybacking on Green Crayons (thanks for spoon-feeding her an escape route, GC!) and take it for what it is. There's no indication of whether or not I believe his claim. Some players' stances tend to change after a claim of any sort. Other players' stances don't. I wanted to know why you chose one over the other.

Simple, I don't believe his claim. His playstyle before the claim was scummy at best, and, as GC said, scum has been known to claim everything. A claim won't fix that.

Hooray for answering my question.

"Why do you still want to lynch Ray?"

It wouldn't have been any better than my question. There was no reason not to be perfectly clear about the conditions involved.

Sometimes I don't find anything good to add;

You were asked a question. Cross that excuse out.

other times I just don't have the time or motivation to reply;

It was a very simple question. I doubt you couldn't muster the motivation for a two- or three-line answer.

other times I'm just reading in my spare time.

You made a post in another game.

Why is AGOTI a better lynch than RayFrost?

---

I agree with elvis about mikeburnfire. His VT comment was obvious role fishing. Why would he think to question that claim?

[SpyreX]

.... I both want to hug and shake the hell out of both of you. THATS WHAT I HAVE BEEN SAYING FOR PAGES NOW.

[elvis_knits]

Sorry, Spyrex, your point was burried in lots of other stuff!

Crypto, vote mbf. It's time this wagon take off.

[elvis_knits]

Let's make this clear: snow bunny or ray, might be scum, but they're sort of VI's, and beating on them right now is not really productive as they are just going to make themselves look worse no matter their allignment. They are easy targets and being fueled by the other VI's (trying to save their own skin) and legitimately scummy players who I know for a fact are not village idiots. mbf is not a VI. He is our best hope for scum at this point. Wagon him.

Pom is also scummy. Tajo is on point.

GC is town who is expecting a bit too much from rayfrost.

Prozac I'm not sure. GC asking some good questions.

Rofl is MIA.

Basically, we need to start getting our shit together and putting votes together. Spreading out is doing nothing. I suggest people vote mbf.

[mikeburnfire]

MBF hasn't said anything about my post 282, or tried to explain his obvious OMGUS reaction.

Didn't realize you wanted me to comment on that.

I don't really see any OMGUS going on. Even before Spyrex commented on me, I had already commented negatively on Spyrex twice (MBF iso 2&6). Spyrex then said he was "getting a nasty twitch" about me (which I didn't mind) and also said that I seemed like I was "hyper-aggressive posturing", which was partially true. (It was aggressive. That was my intent). My response to it was not to vote, finger, or accuse him, but to point out some of his behavior that I thought was suspicious (Talked exclusively about Mufasa, and commented little on RayFrost).

In fact, and this may surprise you because we've argued so much, but I *DONT* think Spyrex is scum. He's been suspicious, though, and I think his logic is terrible and his arguments are flawed beyong belief. But I really think RayFrost is scum, and if that is true, then Spyrex is probably town. RayFrost is an easy wagon, of that there's no doubt, but if so, why would Spyrex come in and fight the lynch so vehemently if they were both scum? The RF lynch was looking inevitable, and by defending him Spyrex would have just been setting himself up for a lynch tomorrow.

Notice how he says the wagon is horrible, but he's more than happy to get a claim, and wants to make sure the claim wasn't just a joke. So he is simultaneously derailing the wagon, and fishing for role information on the same person

*Sigh* Am I going to have to repeat the entire debate I had with Spyrex two pages ago? I wasn't rolefishing. Mufasa had already claimed vanilla townie. I wanted to make sure he was joking. He was. I don't know why this is an issue. We'd only have a problem if Mufasa said he was seriously vanilla townie because then we'd have an unwarranted role claim.

I cannot honestly believe thatyou think that I was willing to risk my neck to rolefish a claimed vanilla townie.

snow bunny or ray, might be scum, but they're sort of VI's, and beating on them right now is not really productive

So what if Ray's acting like a 'villiage idiot'? That doesn't excuse the evidence against him.

mbf is not a VI. He is our best hope for scum at this point. Wagon him

I don't even understand the logic here.

[elvis_knits]

mike -

You wanted to make sure mufasa was joking? Why? What if he had not been? What was the point of making sure he was joking?

You say the only problem is if mufasa answered you that he really was a vanilla townie because then we'd have an unwarranted role claim. WEREN'T YOU SETTING THAT UP BY ASKING?

I mean, if you just leave it alone or say "he's probably joking," then nobody knows for sure. But you had to ask him if he was joking or not. You had to pin it down.

I cannot honestly believe thatyou think that I was willing to risk my neck to rolefish a claimed vanilla townie.

I cannot honestly think of any reason a town player would need to know this either. Scum have a better reason because they know they don't have to kill this person, and it helps narrow down power roles though. So it's slightly in their favor.

[a girl on the internet]

Basically, we need to start getting our shit together and putting votes together. Spreading out is doing nothing. I suggest people vote mbf.

i'm on board with this. mbf's a good enough choice, though i still think prozac is better.

i'm also in a sharing mood, so i'm actually gonna answer some of crypto's qs from earlier.

^ town

Why the heck do you feel the need to mention this?

btw, i like that you ask why i mention it, not why i think it. much better question. anyway, two reasons:

1. cuz that post was not a post i think snow white would make if she was scum. unless she was scum with ray, and she can't be, cuz he's town. anyway, by pointin this out, i hope to get smart town peeps to think about that post more and realize i'm right.
2. to see who gets all mad about how can i possibly be sure and whatever. no surprise it was prozac.

Why does RayFrost give you warm fuzzies if you don't like how he disagreed with whoever said he was opportunistic? Or was that comment of yours not intended to be a criticism (in which case it was just more crap fluff in a post full of crap fluff)?

yeah, it was crap fluff, i guess. def wasn't trying to accuse ray of anything with it.

Why do you suspect mikeburnfire?

at the time, cuz his first post was lame "oh no, someone has too many random votes" stuff. p. much just slowing down the progression out of RVS.

now, we can add in the rolefishing, cuz spyrex and elvis are totally right about that. and the "i'm not saying ray is scummy for not scumhunting, but ray is scummy for not scumhunting" doublespeak, cuz spyrex was totally right about that too, and mbf's response made like zero sense. something about red and blue pens, idk what he was talkin about.

Why are you liking roflcopter if you don't even know why he's voting for populartajo – or are rofl's mere actions so pro-town in your eyes that you don't even care for the underlying factors?

fair enough. i actually like your answer

this. concedin that ray's response was reasonable made me think he was actually trying to figure ray out and not just lookin for a scapegoat.

rofl wasn't voting tajo, btw, just called him scummy. i asked him why cuz i wasn't seein it, and normally i do see where rofl is coming from. (OMG, i am someone who knows rofl! it's a CLUE!)

Why do you suspect Mufasa?

i agreed with spyrex. seem to do that a lot.

You haven't so much as mentioned his actual play?

that's not a question?

Is your Mufasa suspicion just your attempt at trying to cover your bases and hop on his bandwagon if you need a quick wagon?

nope! ^_^

What's wrong with voting for players who are replacing out?

nothin, in general. but at that particular time in this particular game, i didn't think keepin my vote on mufasa's replacement would be helpful.

Bang, FAIL. You didn't like Mufasa. That is to say you announced suspicion of him. In that case it's not about pressure. It's about voting for scum. Are you expecting Mufasa's replacement to just claim scum and admit defeat? Your cute little vote won't make the slightest difference in the degree of pressure he feels.

um, no. votes in the early game are prob gonna be a lot more about pressure than about voting scum. you pressure to help you figure out who is scum. then you can vote them.

like, you gotta find some sorta scummy point to decide who to pressure, but that's mostly just cuz no one feels any pressure from totally random votes.

bored now.

unvote, vote mbf

[SpyreX]

.... my eyes glaze over at AGOTI's posts.

*Sigh* Am I going to have to repeat the entire debate I had with Spyrex two pages ago? I wasn't rolefishing. Mufasa had already claimed vanilla townie. I wanted to make sure he was joking. He was. I don't know why this is an issue. We'd only have a problem if Mufasa said he was seriously vanilla townie because then we'd have an unwarranted role claim.

I cannot honestly believe thatyou think that I was willing to risk my neck to rolefish a claimed vanilla townie.

We would have only had a problem because you asked in the first place. The cause is the issue, not the potential effects.

[mikeburnfire]

I cannot honestly think of any reason a town player would need to know this either.

If he confirmed his claim of vanilla townie, then that would restrict his ability to fake claim later, which is particularly handy if a cop investigates him. Also, a doctor wouldn't waste his protection ability on him, because he's either a 'powerless' townie or mafia.

@AGOTI: That was the definition of opportunism. You haven't said a single thing about me being suspicious, yet when there are a few votes on me you join in because you're "bored"?

Note: I might disappear until Monday. Getting very busy and Real Life is not being kind.

[populartajo]

Im finally doing my thesis, so these days Ill post once a day or two. If things get hard, Ill prob ask for a replacement in a couple games, though I doubt this is going to be one. Just letting you all and mod know this.

Bigger post tonight.

also agoti is obv xyl.