Mini 873 Plainview Game Over

[foilist13]

Confirm vote:Cruelty

I'm pretty much done for now. If I see something new that jumps out at me I'll comment on it, or answer questions if people have them, but I've found who I want.

[AlmasterGM]

Sorry for the flake; will post as soon as possible. Barring some startling revelation, however, I don't think I'm moving my vote.

[archaebob]

foilist, i'm not understanding your cruelty vote.

can you concisely summarize, with like a numbered list or something, what your reasons are for voting him? I generally can see the picture, but I'm not totally sure what the full extent of your argument is.

[foilist13]

I'll do my best.

1) Yesterday he behaved like text book scum, i.e. by slipping on the back of bandwagons, posting infrequently, and having poor arguments that felt distinctly fabricated.

2) Today he seems to be going after the easiest lynches, which could be a null tell, but is also text book scum.

3) His defense is exclusively arguing semantics, OMGUS statements, and poor logic.

4) What seems to be a lack of serious scum hunting.

5) Misrepresentation on day one, i.e. saying he was withholding information until the opportune moment, then when repeatedly questioned revealed he had none.

6) In his latest defense he ignored several points and essentially called me an idiot based on his inability to read.

That's about as concise as I can make it.

[cruelty]

1 & 2: My votes were backed by logic, however poor. You jumped onto the Sociopath wagon without so much as an explanation. This is fairly blatantly hypocritical. I'd also note that you implied support for a peanutman lynch early today (whilst he had votes on him + support for his wagon), voted for AGM, then switched to me when that wagon built a little steam. Also:

I still hold pretty much the same opinion of peanut. He still seems fairly scummy, but there are things about him that seem townish. My biggest suspects, as I said before, are Almaster and Cruelty.

Why the fuck are you taking shots at me about looking for easy lynches when your voting/suspicion history is a) very similar and b) a LOT more inconsistent than mine?

3: You often say things like this, but never address anything specifically. Let's quit the generalisations and quote some specifics hmm?

4: Right. I think I have a fairly decent case on you based on facts - things you've said, your voting inconsistencies etc. I'm pretty sure I have a couple valid points on archaebob, and I think the things I've said in the past re: AGM still stand. Whereas you're completely and utterly tunneled on me.

5: That's not misrepresentation.

6: I addressed everything single one of your numbered points I believe. Why lie?

So what you're saying is you can't push a decent case on me, and your main reason for lynching me is information? If that's the case, why are you making no effort to gain that information without the negativity of a potential mislynch?

I'll ask again. Why are you making no effort to gain the information you think you'll get from my flip? Why are you tunneled solely on me?

[Benmage]

Vote Count:
Cruelty (4) Papa Zito, AlmasterGM, Gammagoey, foilist13
archaebob (2) peanutman, PharieM
peanutman (2) cruelty, MordyS


Not Voting (2) Archaebob, Sanjay

[foilist13]

@Cruelty - Go back and read my earlier posts. I've answered all the points you just brought up, except for your OMGUS stabs at me.

I have no issues looking at other players, and I fully intend to. Recently though you and I have both been caught up in a sort of give and take and I'm in six games right now. I plan on reading everyone in iso after rereading the whole thread, but I'm not promising I'll have anything new or brilliant. It all depends on what I find.

[archaebob]

Foilist, all of your points are either factually inaccurate, or extremely poor. I strongly recommend that you go back over your points, check your sources, and think seriously about what your over-arching theory is.

This really interests me:

Cruelty (4) Papa Zito, AlmasterGM, Gammagoey, foilist13

All of you, 'splain please. I'm not seeing the case here.

[foilist13]

@Archaebob - Why don't you tell me specifically what you take issue with so that I can have a clear idea of it, and we can judge whether or not you're defending him without ulterior motives.

[archaebob]

@ foilist -

yeah...I could do that. But I want to see these other people outline their arguments against cruelty first.

SO,

Let it be recorded in this

very official

record that I owe foilist13 a rebuttal to the six points against Cruelty in his post 953 before Day 2 comes to a close.

Signed, Archaic Robert

There. Sorry, it's the best I can do right now.

But seriously, I'd take this opportunity to look them over yourself before getting royally trashed.

[foilist13]

I'd take this time to post something worth reading, since you've said effectively nothing all day. I'll take you up on that though, and formulate a stronger case.

[archaebob]

@ foilist13-

Well, I'm saying right now that I don't at all see the case on cruelty. And that means that I'm automatically suspicious of everyone who's on that wagon until I see some good reason why they are there.

I'll also add in now, as a little teaser, that I don't think you are cleared at all, and that I still do strongly suspect Sanjay.

@ MordyS-

why peanutman?

@ cruelty-

given the option, would you still want foilist lynched today?

[MordyS]

I explained why Peanutman. But here's an argument in a nutshell (pun, lol):

He argued that we should "shift" the lynch to Muffin, but without actually shifting his vote at all, which strikes me a lot of secret intentions. He hasn't answered why he didn't vote after he said he would. His answer for not voting only makes sense if he's the hammer vote, but he could've voted long before that. And then today he basically tried to take full credit for the lynch, which strikes me as LOL.

[cruelty]

@Cruelty - Go back and read my earlier posts. I've answered all the points you just brought up, except for your OMGUS stabs at me.

Points I brought up? I was responding to you, I think you're losing the plot here man.

OMGUS? Elaborate.

[archaebob]

@ MordyS -

Can you show me where he tried to take full credit for the lynch?
Also, what happened to wanting AGM lynched?

@ Cruelty -

@ cruelty-

given the option, would you still want foilist lynched today?

[cruelty]

@ cruelty-

given the option, would you still want foilist lynched today?

It's more along the lines of, if I could lynch 3 people today he'd be one of them. He's not my first pick for a lynch right at this second (as my vote indicates).

That said, I would absolutely support his wagon.

[foilist13]

@Archaebob - Several people have posted vague opinions on whether or not I am likely to be town based on muffin/socio's flip, but I honastly have no idea what the general consensus may be. There is no wagon on me at the moment, and Cruelty's suspicion of me feels OMGUS driven, which I can relate to, but you are the only person to indicate any real suspicion. Can you elaborate on that?

[archaebob]

The political capital thing is interesting to me as well, it seems that archaebob thrives on being in the middle of all that is going on in a game, on being the leader who sways and guides the town, discusses only the things that he tells us to discuss, etc. It's interesting that as soon as he *lost* that political capital, i.e. the power shift at the end of Day 1, he has just vanished from the game, as if all of the joy in the game went out of it for him now that he was no longer calling the shots. I think it's extremely important to him or his ego that he be the leader, and I think he felt like after the events of the end of day 1, he couldn't just simply reassume his place at the top of the town, the leader of discussion, and go on like normal, so I wonder if that has something to do with why he has stopped posting. That's certainly what it feels like, but I don't know what (if anything) that indicates about his alignment. It could just be an ego thing, and it's not fun for him anymore, or it could be that he doesn't know how to play it after his scumbuddy was outed and so quickly lynched, giving him no chance to game-plan and twist it around to his advantage, and making him look bad for not being ok with the Muffin lynch. His last several posts have seemed very flustered, so I'm I guess more inclined to go with this option. The third option is that he is town, & is simply telling the truth about being busy & unable to post. I find this one the hardest to swallow. I have never seen *anyone* post as much as he did on Day 1. I just find it hard to believe that his circumstances changed so drastically, so quickly, and at just the perfect moment of the Muffin bandwagon beginning.

Lol.

I just want to clear a few things up.

1) I don't have an obsession with "political capital". Whatever "power" I might have had in the town yesterday was due simply to several players deciding they thought I was town after I linked foilist's meta in this thread. This was not something I could have planned for.

Now, in general, I'm a very active player. This is mostly because when I get into a game, I get

really

into a game, sometimes to the point that I wind up compromising my RL a little more than I should. Also, I am never in more than two games at a time, because I like to focus my attention. This also helps contribute to an unusual amount of activity on my part in any given game.

Now, it seems that me being super active, and me asking a lot of questions, and me boldly declaring what I think the town should be doing at any given moment have given you all this impression that I fancy myself some kind of dear emperor. Dismiss this silly notion from your heads. What I fancy myself as is an invested player, who's arrogant enough to think that he can convince other people about what is best for the town. If I ever wind up in a leader position, it's because I've managed to convince you of things, not because I've barked orders at you. Honestly, being the leader is not something that I particularly care about, or aspire to be.

2) I'm not emotionally invested in this game, and I don't actually have an uber-ego.

Let it be known that I am the farthest person in the universe from being personally offended by anything in a game like this. My not posting in a game will

never

be related to me being pissed off, or something idiotic like that.

Also, I'm not really a big ego. Really. I'm not. Or at least, my ego is not related to social factors. I might be arrogant enough to think that I'm right about who the mafia are, and that you all would do well to listen to me, but I'm not arrogant enough to "not be having fun anymore" if you guys decide to tell me I should get real. Seriously, this paragraph that I quoted made me laugh, it's such an unflattering depiction of me.

3) Believe it or not, I

actually

was really busy in the last week.

Also, I'm making a conscious effort to moderate my activity in general, both because I think it helps to clutter the thread, and also because I need to be more responsible with my computer time.

And...guess what! I thought I knew who the mafia were, and I was wrong! Maybe, just maybe, I'm actually humble enough to realize that I might not totally know what's up, and therefore want to

avoid

assuming any sort of role as top of the town immediately at the start of Day 2.

Truth is, I don't really know what's going on in here right now, there's a lot to go over, and I'm biding my time. I think that I influenced the discussion in Day 1 more than was helpful (something that is a recurring problem for me), and I'm interested in seeing what y'all will come up with if I'm less of a dominating presence than I usually am.


Hopefully this clears things up, Pharie .

[archaebob]

@Archaebob - Several people have posted vague opinions on whether or not I am likely to be town based on muffin/socio's flip, but I honastly have no idea what the general consensus may be. There is no wagon on me at the moment, and Cruelty's suspicion of me feels OMGUS driven, which I can relate to, but you are the only person to indicate any real suspicion. Can you elaborate on that?

Sure. But first, explain how anything but your last sentence in this quote is of any relevance.

@ Sanjay -

I'd love to know what you think about cruelty. Love as in

love

.

[foilist13]

I'm betting it took you more than 5 min to write that post, so now that you see mine can you respond to it?

[foilist13]

The first sentences were leading up to the last sentence, and meant to explain why I was asking you specifically.

[Gammagooey]

@ ze archae- reasoning is in post 901 and 911. reasoning for why I think foilist is likely village idiot is also in 901.
question for ze archae- cruelty was the 4th vote on your bandwagon way back in the day(1) and only recently decided to vote peanutman over you. If you think cruelty is town, why do you think he made those decisions and who is your #1 suspect.

6: You like it because it clears you. I'll also note that GG only states there's information from a cruelty scumflip. He doesn't even mention what happens if I flip town.

My response to your earlier post included a small bit:That AGM would be absolutely mafia in my eyes, and if you flip town we also have suspicions from a confirmed townie on multiple players, notably on archae and peanut.

3) His defense is exclusively arguing semantics, OMGUS statements, and poor logic.

I don't think his defense is that bad, although he seems to be completely ignoring what I said about his flip giving info on AGM earlier. However, cruelty was very reluctant to give opinions on players and generally didn't say much of use throughout the day. You don't get a lot of scummy posts from lurking scum (a la Sociopath) because they aren't making opinionated posts that people disagree with and examine further.

Cruelty and foilist, could you stop insulting each other? Thinking someone has flawed reasoning in a mafia game doesn't mean you should act like a dick to call them out.

[archaebob]

@ foilist - I still do not see the relevance. Why should I care what the general consensus of the town is? More importantly, why should YOU care? You seem to be implying with your post that it is somehow odd for me to level any suspicions at you, given the fact that I am alone in doing so.

"No-one else finds me suspicious. How dare you!"

[archaebob]

@ everyone -

Given what we now know about Muffin's alignment, does anyone have a new perspective on the Muffin vs. Chinaman dialogue near the beginning of Day 1?

At the time, I thought it was town on town. We know now that it wasn't that. However, I'm still getting the vibe that they had the same alignment...

[foilist13]

You are misreading me Archaebob. I want to know why you think I'm scum. That's it. Answer the question please.