890: Cults of Darkness and Shadow - Game over!

[Seacore]

Preliminary thoughts on players

Chaco - Engages in the idea of a controlled multi-lynch, which I consider a protown concept, but something about his reaction the buddying accusation rubs me the wrong way. And no, it's not just OMGUS from me. It's like he didn't like the attention and decided to say "oh no, I was just laying a trap for him" Vibe: neutral

Datadanne - Has yet to post anything meaningful - Vibe: neutral

Deathsauce - Has a proactive approach to getting answers. I'm happy with the nature of both of his incants, (as in, I'm happy with his reasons for why he did it) although I don't agree with him that Mipe is scum, just weird. - Vibe:townish

Discode - I'll try to summarise because I've made it clear I think he's scum. He's taken things out of context, as mentioned before. Even if Chaco does think I'm scum, that's not what he said when Discode referred to it. Seems to pick and choose quotes for his desired meaning. Also pushes the tactic that I think will become very hard to hold people accountable to during late stage of each day- Vibe:scum

Faraday - Provides as little reason for his actions as possible, which is not very accountable. Seems to pick up flavour text as a point of issue when there are other more relevant things around. However, is decent at focusing on unanswered questions. Vibe:scummish

Magua - Hasn't posted much, but what has been there has been thoughtful and clear. Spoke about his suspicions with reasons, even examined his own biases which leads to a lot of accountability. Vibe - slightly townish, but there's not enough to go on.

Mipe - No idea what he's doing. He asked two questions which would be questions I'd want to know if I was in the scum teams, although they are good to know as town too. He's voted for the mod. He was trying to be clever with the rick rolling gag. Vibe - scummish.

Seacore - Awesome guy, totally town.

Semioldguy - Hasn't posted yet, which is consistent with his confirmation post.

Serialclergyman - Claims he didn't see that multilynches were an option, and the moment it was raised tries to turn it into a conversation in which almost everybody mass-suicides, which would play right into scum hands if it ever happened. Accuses me of over-analysing the setup when barely anybody had posted anything else to analyse. Claims that it's very unlikely that scum have power roles, I don't think that it's "unlikely" at all, and it would serve the scum very well if we believed it was true. Vibe: scum

Snowbunny- hasn't posted much, but seems vaguely townish, but not enough to go on. Vibe:neutral

Starttransmission - the least scummy of my main attackers. actually seemed to consider my answers rather than look for ways to attack me. However, hasn't really invested any energy into other players - Vibe: neutral.

So Discode and Serialclergyman take the lead on my scum thoughts. Faraday is a close behind.

Haven't heard enough from Data, magua, semioldguy, snowbunny and starttransmission, or serialclergyman for that matter. I imagine the americans among you will probably post more now that the holiday weekend is over.

[Chaco]

Chaco - Engages in the idea of a controlled multi-lynch, which I consider a protown concept, but something about his reaction the buddying accusation rubs me the wrong way. And no, it's not just OMGUS from me. It's like he didn't like the attention and decided to say "oh no, I was just laying a trap for him" Vibe: neutral

I didn't deny buddying. My wording may have been off, but upon elaborating I never denied it. Anyways, to the point, I feel that you aren't understanding my method as you are on the wrong end of it. First, let's start out with a simple question: Have you ever tried odd tactics to catch scum?

[Snow_Bunny]

My, too much to read. Even more than all of my other games combined.

Will read everything, and post something soon.

[Seacore]

Yes, I've tried some odd stuff, but I usually try and make it accountable the whole way through.
Anyway, it's fine that you may have been trying something odd to catch me out if I was being scummy. It's just that the way you did it didn't make me feel comfortable enough to declare you town, thus I gave you neutral.

Although, question: What about me seems scummy to you, since you said that you were willing to vote for me.

[Faraday]

* Deathsauce needs to answer my question as to why I'd pass a random vote off as series.

*Seacore, how come you haven't asked for his reasons? I thought saying things w/o explanation was IYO, scummy? Yet you haven't questioned him on it at all and find him townish?

*Mipe's Mod vote is very odd. I don't even know what to think of it, it's a semi-open game, there's not gonne be a mod-player.

*Also you say I provide as little reasoning as possible, to my knowledge I've only done that once. You seem (and iirc Mipe too) seem to have taken it as a recurring theme in my posts, when it doesn't seem to be there.

*what is the flavour text comment talking about? I've legit no idea what you mean here, so clarify, please.

*Snow_Bunny, Data and Mipe need to provide more.

[Faraday]

series = serious.

[Seacore]

You've questioned him on it, and I've given yuo a slight commendation for being proactive in the regard, but you're completely correct on that front. I too want Deathsauce to answer that question. Deathsauce, please do so.

Many of your posts are very short and you don't go into your reasons as much as I'd like, but I've possibly been biased by your first post. I'll stop holding this against you unless I see more concret examples.

The flavour text is where you point out that you don't like how I say it's a shame that I'm going to be lynched and that if I'm lynched, when I flip town, etc. It seems a pointless thing to have a go at somebody about. I was thinking through a long post and I didn't stop and triple analyse each phrase, I just wrote it as I thought it. I can kind of see your point when people try to subtley put in suggestions that they are town, but I was too lime light for that to ever work. I half wrote that post from the point of view that I was going to be lynched and I wanted to contribute something before I died.

Massive agreement on your final point, but there's more than just those three that need to post more. In response to that I'm going to shut up until they do.

[mipe]

Sigh.. I think that there is something fishy going on with all the 'no comment'ing. I just wanted to be 100% sure that mod isn't a cultist (Yeah, what are the chances that when mod plays, he's town?)
I wouldn't be suprised if there would be only 1 cult, or something like, 1 cult has 4 members and other has 1 member..

And for people that think my questions were scummy:
We have no idea how many cultists are on each team. We have no information if there is same amount of them on both teams. We don't get a notice when we terminate a team. That's the information we've got so far with questions. IMHO, that information can help town, and I wanted to know more.

[Seacore]

We'll likely be able to tell that there is only one cult left because there'll be only one night kill. (Granted that cults doubling up combined with guardians mean that it's not 100% effective.)
I don't think there will be a solo cultist, that seems unfair, but I could imagine a 2/3 split assuming that the 2 team has a power role.
I'm going to operate under the assumption that each cult has 3 members and one of each power role. Not because I think it's the most likely, but because I think it's the worst case scenario.

[startransmission]

The flavour text is where you point out that you don't like how I say it's a shame that I'm going to be lynched and that if I'm lynched, when I flip town, etc.

I had a problem with this as well. It came off as a bit of an Appeal to Emotion, and that ties in with playing the victim.

It's also way too early to say something like that. You have a mere three incants on you, well shy of the 11 that is needed.

[DeathSauce]

* Deathsauce needs to answer my question as to why I'd pass a random vote off as serious.

There's really nothing here, it was when I thought you had made the first post of the game (obviously random) and were defending it as non-random, just a general Lynch All Liars thing I was looking for. Since I had the posts mixed up, there is nothing to it and I do not consider you a liar.

[semioldguy]

I am back. Thoughts so far:

Regarding the page one posts not thinking it is a good idea to throw around incantations, I strongly disagree. Too many times I see people fence sitting or not backing up suspicions with votes and this mechanic helps force them to both put there vote somewhere and have to back it up. The random voting stage is not significantly better or worse in this game than it is in others.

The idea that random voting stage incants could be around when someone isn't here that leads to a lynch is ridiculous since there would have to either be an overwhelming support for that lynch of the random vote would be sitting there for a coupe weeks without ever having moved, which would be huge points against that player regardless. No one should be gone multiple weeks. Random voting wasn't dangerous. Everyone who is discouraging voting gets scum points from me. Voting is the town's main power and our only way to make kills.

We also don't want a no-lynch on day one. Ever.

@Seacore
Voting without explanation isn't necessarily scummy. You also defend you information over analysis as being helpful due to the odd setup. I don't see how you information helps progress or advance the favor of town at all. It is a distraction to actual scum hunting and is definitely information over analysis.

Seacore also has a lot of buddy-ing and "I agree" attitude.

Random bandwagons being bad
Power roles being evident of being "pro town" and thus less trustworthy
Pro town tells being significantly less helpful compared to scum tells in this game as opposed to normal games.

In fact, I would like to hear from other people on these points as well.

Random bandwagons aren't bad at the beginning of a game, they provide a lot of information and help to bring out scummy people. Power role claims should be treated as they are in most other games. Somoene claiming cop in a normal game isn't just automatically assumed cop whether they are or not, why should we have trusted any power role claims here? Not any more or less trustworthy in my option. Pro town tells are not less helpful, just not all necessarily the same.

Faraday is right about his stance on these issues.

Players shouldn't hide behind an excuse not to vote. That is scummy. Put your vote somewhere.

@Seacore Post 70
You are defending the mindset of scum. It looks sympathetic to the scum agenda. Town should not defend an accusation of what the scum should or shouldn't do. That is scummy. Why do you think it is a good idea to defend the scum's ideal actions?

All this discussion of crafting a multi-lynch is bad. Let's just lynch whoever we find most scummy. If two players get lynched, great. If not, well then we lynched the most scummy person by majority. I am not going to try cooperating to try and get a double lynch, I m going to be voting for the player I find most likely to be scum.

re: DeathSauce vs. Faraday (and Faraday's opening vote)
I didn't see Faraday's vote as a random vote. I would have voted Snow_Bunny there too, and for the same reason.

@Magua
You weren't the only one to break the game Perhaps I'm not on your radar because I have be V/LA until today, seems like an odd oversight by you since I hadn't even posted.

@Chaco
Saying you are almost ready to incant someone is scummy. If you were almost ready to incant, what kept you from doing it?

@Seacore
Several of your more recent posts and defense appear as an appeal to emotion.

Incant: Seacore

[SerialClergyman]

semioldguy - what do you think of mipe?

[semioldguy]

He has been mostly useless thus far. He needs to post more, and about relevant things. No strong read, neutral to slightly scummy. There are worse players than him.

[SerialClergyman]

Then we agree on essentially everything. Good man.

Any reason you didn't mention the whole vote the mod thing?

[semioldguy]

Because it is pointless to discuss. It's also both in the rules and is not reflected on the most recent vote count. Any reason you're asking?

[Chaco]

Regarding the page one posts not thinking it is a good idea to throw around incantations, I strongly disagree. Too many times I see people fence sitting or not backing up suspicions with votes and this mechanic helps force them to both put there vote somewhere and have to back it up. The random voting stage is not significantly better or worse in this game than it is in others.

Semi, I can't agree with that. There's a difference between casting Incants, and as you phrased, throwing them around. You CANNOT remove these. They have to stick somewhere. So as the incant number tocks down, bad tings can happen. You honestly seem hella scummy to me for saying throwing around incantation isn't bad. You don't see the potential of the mistakes here.

As far as the RVS, the RVS is near pointless here. Start it out someway different the only thing RVS does is create a larger incant pool in this game.

The "all in for Incanting" attitude is really odd. Right now there is no pressure, but as the day comes to an end it will cause loads. You do realize that however many incants we have down determines the length of the day, right?

All this discussion of crafting a multi-lynch is bad. Let's just lynch whoever we find most scummy. If two players get lynched, great. If not, well then we lynched the most scummy person by majority. I am not going to try cooperating to try and get a double lynch, I m going to be voting for the player I find most likely to be scum.

That is a flimsy stance, Semi.

IGMEOY

as the game progresses to see how you hold to this opinion. Scum would say that, but also flip for a town double lynch.

@Chaco
Saying you are almost ready to incant someone is scummy. If you were almost ready to incant, what kept you from doing it?

I'm watching Seacore more closely and seeing how he responds to things. I want a better read, so as you say...I actually can thoroughly backup my vote.

[Chaco]

To reiterate my point so that people will read it:

The games deadline is based on the Incant pool. The larger the incant pool, the shorter the day, no matter how you look at it.

[semioldguy]

I am a strong advocate of voting. In order for an under-majority lynch to even occur on the first day, 18 days must have gone by. That's nearly three weeks, which is pretty standard for a normal deadline in minis. We aren't losing anything by all having our votes somewhere. Having a lynch go off when only four votes are required instead of six or more is bad because less total people are accountable for a lynch and provides the town with much less information regarding stances. Letting the day go so long as to ensure we don't have a majority lynch is bad in my opinion.

Do you (or anyone else) intend to not vote for three whole weeks? Would you recommend players not vote for this period of time? If everyone votes for someone before 18 days has passed, then what difference did it really make by them not random voting?

To reiterate: If ANY lynch is reached before 18 days, it will be a majority lynch no matter what.

It is not possible to have a non-majority lynch before eighteen days have passed. Why are you so concerned about having too many votes out to cause an accidental lynch? This is an unrealistic concern.

I think forcing players to stick their vote somewhere else when they unvote someone is a good thing. It keeps them actively scum hunting and targeting their top suspects.

[Seacore]

Actually, and this is probably going to bite me, but I think I've finally been persuaded into the "go ahead and vote" camp.
Semi's numbers have finally clicked it in.

I think it's because I'm used to much faster games than this so the deadline seemed more ominous.

Although I do disagree with your comment that if fewer people have caused the lynch that we get less information from it.

I don't understand what you're getting at from Post 70.

I also disagree with your multilynch comment. I think a mutlilynch needs to be organised for it to work. That way we can point the finger at anybody who unlevels it, whereas with your plan its just "hey, I was voting for who I wanted"

[SerialClergyman]

I'm asking because usually play like his draws a cooment from people who do a big summary. You didn't even mention it. Either we think alike and you aren't someone who goes after VIs, or you didn't want to go after this particular one. But your answer was a good one, and a town tell too.

[Snow_Bunny]

Ok, some quick comments on what I've read:

Magua -> town. Few posts, but they are good so far. His vote on mipe is noted.
star -> neutral, leaning town. A few good reading in general, though there's something in this post I don't like. Maybe is telling Seacore what to do in case of suspicious.
chaco -> scummy. Putting the idea no-lynch for future days in the table; his appeal of shrugging off the buddying just don't make it to me.
Seacore -> scummy. Among others, discrediting budding; his long post tries to say things but in the end nothing. However, his comments on the incants in play seem rather townish.
Faraday -> neutral, leaning scummy; the whole vote with reason no stated at the beginning of the game is scummy. Though something tells me he's town.
mipe -> scummy; question to the mod about last words of the cultist just stroke me as scum (apart from his general lack of comment, but well, I can say much either)
DisCode -> neutral, leaning town. Gut tells me is town, but I'm not sure.
DS -> neutral, not enough to get a read; though I didn't like his reaction towards DisCode's request. Too aggressive.
Semi -> Neutral, leaning towards scummy. Didn't like his last big post, we differ in many things, and I find scummy many of those.
Data -> Neutral, not enough to get a read.

Well, I guess that's all for now.

Mipe is looking quite scummy now, gut + that odd question. So, for now

Incant: mipe

. I'd also be happy with a Seacore lynch.

[Chaco]

I'll reply tomorrow Semi, too long of post for my phone. But I think we missed each other. In terms of the posts.

[Faraday]

The flavour text is where you point out that you don't like how I say it's a shame that I'm going to be lynched and that if I'm lynched, when I flip town, etc. It seems a pointless thing to have a go at somebody about. I was thinking through a long post and I didn't stop and triple analyse each phrase, I just wrote it as I thought it. I can kind of see your point when people try to subtley put in suggestions that they are town, but I was too lime light for that to ever work. I half wrote that post from the point of view that I was going to be lynched and I wanted to contribute something before I died.

Okay to me flavour text = the text the mod provides to set the scene for the game, so that's why I was confused.

And the reason I point them out is that they're appeals to emotion, which I find scummy. It's also softly asserting your town for no real reason, as it doesn't help anyone,
And defeatism, obviously doesn't help anyone.

---

Post 132 is generally very horrible for a number of reasons.

He's obviously no commenting as he wants to keep as little information to hiomself as possible, plus there not really answer I'd expect him to answer, as it doesn't generally happen in any mafia game.

I've also no idea as to why you would possibly think the mod is a cultist. I don't even know if I find that scummy, it's just really, really weird.

----

Fair enough @ Deathsauce I'd misunderstood and thought you were mid-reading the insult, that makes more sense though actually.

136 by semioldguy is all quite correct, good catch by SC on noticing his lack of Mipe but I also kinda like his answer, so it's forgivable.

Chaco why is that a flimsy stance? It's pretty much my position, if it happens it happens, I think if we have 2 good candiates and can agree fair enough, and if not meh it's not a massive deal.

And yeah, 18n days is more than enough time to find a lynch. I abhor long days anyway.

----

Snow_Bunny's 146...

Magua -> town. Few posts, but they are good so far. His vote on mipe is noted.
star -> neutral, leaning town. A few good reading in general, though there's something in this post I don't like. Maybe is telling Seacore what to do in case of suspicious.
chaco -> scummy. Putting the idea no-lynch for future days in the table; his appeal of shrugging off the buddying just don't make it to me.
Seacore -> scummy. Among others, discrediting budding; his long post tries to say things but in the end nothing. However, his comments on the incants in play seem rather townish.
Faraday -> neutral, leaning scummy; the whole vote with reason no stated at the beginning of the game is scummy. Though something tells me he's town.
mipe -> scummy; question to the mod about last words of the cultist just stroke me as scum (apart from his general lack of comment, but well, I can say much either)
DisCode -> neutral, leaning town. Gut tells me is town, but I'm not sure.
DS -> neutral, not enough to get a read; though I didn't like his reaction towards DisCode's request. Too aggressive.
Semi -> Neutral, leaning towards scummy. Didn't like his last big post, we differ in many things, and I find scummy many of those.
Data -> Neutral, not enough to get a read.

Well, I guess that's all for now.

Mipe is looking quite scummy now, gut + that odd question. So, for now Incant: mipe. I'd also be happy with a Seacore lynch.

Too many neutrals here for me, basically takes very few definitive stances. Lots of neutrals.
Seacore is a second lynch choice despite having some townie points. Chaco has none of these and isn't her 2nd lynch choice. odd.

basically she doesn't seem to be sure on a lot. Her stance on me is perfect to show that. Neutral leaning scummy? Yet something tells her I'm town. Wow @ that whole bunch of nothing. I've no idea why there's any point to this if you've got so little positions, though I appreicate the contribution.

Seacore is fairly scummy, but I think Snow_Bunny's is at this point more likley to be scum.

[Faraday]

l/a (hopefully) the next few days, as I have an essay to do. So if I'm hear it means I'm procrastinating, which I shouldn't be doing