California Trilogy: City of Angels - On Camera (Game Over)

[hewitt]

Um I'm not really sure what to say here. I thought Goofballs was scum and that doesn't really matter anymore because I was right. I would go with my other gut instinct and say that Talilan is scum and I'm probably right again.

[ortolan]

Before anyone else says their piece, I wanna get it on the table that I feel Thesp and Mighty Orbots are most likely to be scum

StarKiss is pending review

- ortolan

[Talilan]

by the way, that should have been me

tee hee

[Talilan]

Actually Talitha has pointed out to me that I've overlooked post 2634 off-stage, which is massively, massively, massively scummy from StarKiss. StarKiss did not even attempt to explain it, and still hasn't. Thesp has also brazenly ignored ckd calling him out on his lack of response.

- ortolan

[StarKiss]

I dont consider there is anything to be explained... Given the choice to switch alignement, its much more of a thrill to pick the mafia side <<

Also, once this game is over i REALLY want CKD to explain what the hell he was ranting bout with his SMG.

[Talilan]

StarKiss

In order for CKD to switch his alignment and join the mafia (as you suggested to him), he would have to NOT be mafia, correct?

Then you got defensive when SL said you should be lynched, and said you lynched CKD because he claimed scum.

You OBVIOUSLY did not believe the "scum claim" even one little bit.

Your behaviour is only consistent with someone who knows CKD isn't scum, but who really wants to lynch him anyway.... i.e. your behaviour is only consistent with scum.

~Tal

[VP Baltar]

Ok guys, I'm back from V/LA and will be catching up in all of my game over the next couple of days.

[VP Baltar]

Yeah, so the brief few posts here (which I just caught up on) don't change my feeling since early in the game that Starkiss is scum. I want to look back at DGB and Thok's reads on Starkiss, but my memory seems to indicate that they weren't very much in favor of his lynch.

I still think MO is town. Talilan I'm unsure about. Hewitt I think might be town despite my bettter judgement.

zu faul is basically an empty slate.

If anyone who is alive now was the AP, now is the time to speak up.

[StarKiss]

StarKiss

In order for CKD to switch his alignment and join the mafia (as you suggested to him), he would have to NOT be mafia, correct?

Then you got defensive when SL said you should be lynched, and said you lynched CKD because he claimed scum.

You OBVIOUSLY did not believe the "scum claim" even one little bit.

My only opinion on scumclaims is that they should be lynched on sight. Not questions, no arguments. Kise can believe it or not or skate all he wants, I wouldn't have left CKD alive and had a dayvig been possible for me I'd have used it on the spot.

[zu_Faul]

If anyone who is alive now was the AP, now is the time to speak up.

There is no good reason why the AP should claim now, and not when he is pressured, is there? It just confirms to scum who they should kill between scenes.

Obviously the scum knew for sure what would happen if they got us down to 5 innocents in the last scene. Otherwise they would not have lynched SL so blatantly.

Eh, we did know as well, it was going to be the worst setup possible... and as scum could not all migrate into this phase there was no risk for them lynching blatantly anyway...

[VP Baltar]

There is no good reason why the AP should claim now, and not when he is pressured, is there? It just confirms to scum who they should kill between scenes.

Why the hell should we waste time running up a confirmed innocent to a claim and then having to reanalyze the situation? Eliminating lynches with confirmed town is top priority in an open game, as it greatly increases our odds of lynching correctly twice in a row.

I think I have an idea of who it is, and I'm just going to assume the scum do as well, so I would like to get it out there.

[VP Baltar]

EBWOP: Also keep in mind that we only get one mislynch, so it is best if we do this right the first time and give ourselves a bit of breathing room tomorrow.

[VP Baltar]

I need to do some reading in the other thread, but I'm definitely for a Thesp or Starkiss lynch today. I think it's pretty likely they are the scum.

[StarKiss]

{Kise}

Actually Talitha has pointed out to me that I've overlooked post 2634 off-stage, which is massively, massively, massively scummy from StarKiss. StarKiss did not even attempt to explain it, and still hasn't.

As dram said, there is no explaining. It is exactly how it is. But I get the feeling you don't remember Scene 1. In a nutshell, when CKD was advocate and saying he didn't want to convert, I asked him if he would be willing to convert and expose the scum, even if that meant he would die. Iso me (post 7) and you can look at that entire exchange. CKD basically told me he'd like to be on the winning side, so.

My eyes are on Talilan to vote for. Haven't liked them for a long time now. There was a comment made weeks (maybe a month) ago about not wasting a lynch on me. Talitha skirted around answering what she meant for the longest. It took around 4 or 5 exchanges before I could get you to settle down and answer it concisely. The explanation was dookie anyway. I could retrieve a link from where Talitha begins dodging me if anyone's interested.

You're on my back over 1 mislynch. {Kise, keep in mind} CKD needed to be lynched in order for us to separate SMG from Scientologist, if that's still even a debate. Based on how Thesp was , I had 2nd thoughts on who to vote for, but Locke needed to go for info's sake and Thesp hadn't done anything else I thought was bad except pestering zu to claim AP or not. If you don't agree, then you're likely trying to justify not getting your hands dirty. His [mis]lynch literally provided information.

@dram - I could care less about CKD claiming scum. It was a Mastin'ish attempt to muddle everyone's thoughts; in other words, null. Even now, if someone outright claimed scum, I would have to assess whether there is actual knowledge to be gained from it, as was the case with CKD's lynch.

[StarKiss]

You OBVIOUSLY did not believe the "scum claim" even one little bit.

You're right, KISE didn't believe the scum claim. Kise is the one who placed the vote on CKD, keep in mind. Extra scum points to you for trying to mix up dram's & my opinions as a singular person's inconsistency.

I tag all my posts. If it's not tagged, it's more than likely from dram. With that said...

{Kise, again}

[Talilan]

You're on my back over 1 mislynch. {Kise, keep in mind}

Nono. The mislynch of ckd is immaterial. I thought he was basically obv-town for the whole game but once he called for his own lynch it was necessary for WIFOM reasons. After that point I wouldn't call anyone scummy for having lynched him.

This is besides the point. The point is that you stated that he "should" have joined the mafia. This implies that he didn't join the mafia, which implies that he had the option of whether or not to join the mafia, which means he wasn't mafia already; thus you knew he wasn't mafia, yet still voted him. It's quite simple, and quite scummy.

This is besides the fact that your original suggestion was pretty preposterous- I can't exactly see mith letting someone spoil the game on day one by snitching on their buddies (especially because at that point it would constitute playing against their wincon).

I would like to remind everyone that time is of the essence here. Lurking's just going to autoloss the town. We only have less than two weeks to decide a lynch. I would particularly like to know where we stand with everyone else.

The challenge here isn't insurmountable. We only have one mislynch, but we have a paper trail lasting the whole game. I want people to give reasons drawn from the whole game for why others are scum, not just drawn from the events most fresh in one's memory (which would be easiest for scum to manipulate, as they were edging closer to end-game).

In particular we know that DGB and Thok felt confident sacrificing themselves for whichever two scummies are left alive (the automatic "very bad" setup might also have had something to do with it, but if they were sending in two players who were automatically going to be lynched then they must have known it wouldn't do them any good).

I feel Thesp has been very very scummy. I'm not familiar with his playstyle, but he has in my eyes lurked constantly throughout the game, as though he seems to have been way more interested in self-preservation and not forming links with anyone than catching scum. He's given us no reassurance of his alignment throughout the game, hasn't taken a meaningful stand which might expose him to criticism (apart from a few recent things which can be discussed in due course). He looks perfectly like someone who DGB and Thok permitted to go off by themselves at the beginning of the game, in order to have the best chance of non-linkage in end-game. Plus, to be honest, I get kind of the same brazenly conceited vibe from him as I got from Thok. These two points are separate by the way, please don't attack them on the basis "YoU ArE SaYIng he is a lone woLF but he iS Also aCting Like Thok. That DoESn't Make Sesnse Ortolan, yu are scum." One is an emotional vibe, one is a more behavioural thing.

Thesp, would you please explain your recent hounding of zu_Faul. I don't see how that originated.

Also

Talilan not answering the question Shadowlurker asked on top of this page bothers me.

wrt to

btw, if ckd is scum then the scum would have needed to start with at least 6 players. How likely do people think this is?

- ortolan

Can't remember if I ever answered this. It was simple logical entailment from the setup information. If scum started with 5 players and were sacrificing ckd, then his lynch would bring them down to two. Therefore either ckd wasn't scum, or scum started with 6+ players. I realised this wasn't a very effective argument though, because it in fact was very likely that scum had about 6 players rather than 5, for game balance reasons (and was correct).

- ortolan

Tags fixed. - Mod

[StarKiss]

The point is that you stated that he "should" have joined the mafia. This implies that he didn't join the mafia, which implies that he had the option of whether or not to join the mafia, which means he wasn't mafia already; thus you knew he wasn't mafia, yet still voted him. It's quite simple, and quite scummy.

No

The point is that CKD claimed scum, then once he got pushed off-stage played as if nothing happened. This implies he says he's town. To this, Kise respond he "should" have joined the mafia. This implies that he believes the choice was possible and that CKD might be telling the truth. This doesn't imply anything about previous knowledge.

Yet I still voted him. Yet you said in the paragraph right above he should be lynched anyways, but now you blame me for voting him.

It is quite simple and you are quite scummy for proposing such an erroneous chain of implications.

[StarKiss]

~Dram, btw~

[Thesp]

I've been doing a lot of thinking about the game, and I'm still hung up on D1. I've been thinking about the game in light of other games mith has run, particularly the five year anniversary game. It was a vanilla game with mechanics which allowed the mafia to make it look like there was more going on than there really was. (There were no power roles, no kill N1, 2 kills N2, and one kill on all nights afterwards, and the mafia could invent the manner of killing.) The mafia used their flavor construction to make it appear that there were two separate killing groups, including the threat of a cult via "poisoned Kool-Aid".

I'm thinking back to that in light of curiouskarmadog's innocence, trying to make sense of D1. He was insistent that he would become scum, that there was a SMG, etc., and there was a great bit of detail to his supplied information. Contrasted this with Panzerjager, who basically gets "you should drive". There's an asymmetry to their information that I've been screaming about all game to no avail until the last scene. Now that curiouskarmadog has turned up innocent (with a bizarre tale of the Screen Mafia Guild), and Panzerjager/zu_Faul under the veil of "we all think he's the AP", I've been doing some reconsidering. From a mechanics standpoint, I'm beginning to think that the mafia have been writing the advocates' information (with some moderator proscribed restrictions - presumably the information has to tell something truthful and useful?). This would explain the asymmetry of the D1 advocate PMs, at the least.

This is all to say I'm a little less gung-ho about zu_Faul, but I still want the AP claim (from everyone, actually, but him first). I don't want the AP dying and his info lost, then scum trying to pose.

I'm looking over some prior scenes decisions. I've also looked more closely at the StarKiss quote in question, and agree it's crazy scummy:

It's best not to fight this. You should have just converted and snitched on the maf like I suggested.

I overlooked it at the time, and somewhat wish I hadn't. He's already presuming that curiouskarmadog is town. (PPE: Talilan covers this, but in more detail just a bit before me.) I refrained from pushing on any case (or really looking for them) between Scene 7 & 8 because I didn't want a possible scum-Talilan from deliberately putting me in a situation where I'd lynch someone they knew to be town (particularly when she pushed for two willing StarKiss-lynchers), and I've been out of town more often than I've been

in

town over the last two weeks. I've also pulled up my spreadsheet of choices made over the first 4 scenes (I haven't updated it since), and see StarKiss's name plastered in red. I'm most happy with a StarKiss lynch at this point (as apparently the rest of the world is), and I want to see some other things addressed first (particularly the AP).

I'm crazily distrustful of Mighty Orbots. (In part, Mighty Orbot's question to end D7 is sooooooooo bad - looking back, checking (56, 41} is so much better, even if hewitt is lying you discover it.) I'm hesitant about hewitt still, but he's lower on the priority-meter right now than StarKiss. I also need to tease my thoughts out about VP Baltar - I feel somewhat trustful of him because I'm agreeing with most of what he says (which contrasts somewhat strongly with the last game I completed with him - I thought this while amidst that game as well). There's a paranoid bit of me that says I need to re-evaluate this (as this thought has been dormant with me for a while, and I see a red mark by VP Baltar's name on an onstage choice), but I don't think he's worth looking at today. And there's a lot that bothers me about Talilan, but I'm warming to the townside on them, if not in some small part to the manner in the thought process on claiming information on what they were provided on the endgame scenario. (That is some driving force behind why I suggested Talilan ask the question as well as myself.) I want to get a claim from zu_Faul.

There's more analysis for the days to come, but I wanted to go ahead and get my thoughts out now.

PPE:

Thesp, would you please explain your recent hounding of zu_Faul. I don't see how that originated.

It's been since Panzerjager's weird D1 (it's been for most of the game, in fact, he's been my longest-held-and-stated suspicion) - he seemed a bit dumbfounded that curiouskarmadog claimed his info the way he did. (See my first paragraph or so on how that's evolving.)

Condorcet vote:

Vote: StarKiss, [Mighty Orbots, hewitt, zu_Faul], [Talilan, VP Baltar], No Lynch, [Thesp]

[Mighty Orbots]

Arrite, read through this. My list stands at:

Talilan
hewitt
Starkiss
Thesp
zu_faul
VP Baltar

I want people to give reasons drawn from the whole game for why others are scum, not just drawn from the events most fresh in one's memory (which would be easiest for scum to manipulate, as they were edging closer to end-game).

Convenient.

Let me make sure I have this straight. You want us to believe that putting two scum offstage with the most pro-town player in the game, leading to a quicklynch, leading to the worst possible scenario was all a coincidence. Right? And it's also a coincidence that GaB didn't fire you, preventing that scenario from happening, right?

I have a long-standing case on hewitt. He refused to vote KY Krew even though he said he would, instead staying on Panzer. Later, after calling for Pooky's lynch time and again, he softened his tone (from "scum" to "wildcard") and when presented the opportunity to wagon Pooky instead hammered Gaspar. His only interaction with GaB was to answer questions and act irritated. And I invite you all to find him mention Thok anywhere.

Starkiss' post is bad, I agree. And they've been pretty useless all game.

Rather like Thesp.

I'm going to come out and say I'm assuming zu_faul is the AP here because I'm sick of dancing around the issue. That's the only reason I have him this high though.

VP has played a pretty solid game.

So yeah. I have way too many possible candidates and we're in a damn 2:5 vanilla setup. Way to go town. Jesus.

[Talilan]

Obviously the scum knew for sure what would happen if they got us down to 5 innocents in the last scene. Otherwise they would not have lynched SL so blatantly.

Eh, we did know as well, it was going to be the worst setup possible... and as scum could not all migrate into this phase there was no risk for them lynching blatantly anyway...

Just how did you know? Ortolan actually asked about it quite early in the game and got no answer. In the rules it is not clear, IMO, that the final lynch of the final scene would count as 'triggering endgame early' and I'm actually a little annoyed that scum apparently had that information but town didn't.

There was definitely a downside to them lynching blatantly... because they sacrificed and exposed G&B & Thok, they did not have any choice about which two would go forward to endgame. And we effectively get two scum flips... something we've been desperately needing.

~Tal

[Talilan]

MO, think about it. If we were scum assistant director, and planned to blatantly lynch to get best possible endgame we would have done things very differently.

DGB was generally more trusted than us... we would have left her out of it.

Most likely we would have left ourselves offstage with Thok and a townie who couldn't run away by stunting. We certainly wouldn't have chosen to stay offstage and blatantly lynch someone who had zero chance of being the AP.

~Tal

[Talilan]

That last sentence is a bit weird. Try... "If we were scum AD and could organise to lynch whoever we liked, it would not have been SL who had zero chance of being the AP".

~Tal

[Talilan]

I don't know why DGB didn't fire us, but my guesses are that either she didn't want to appear to eager and give her scummy self away, or she foresaw it might be a nice way to link herself to us if her (or our) alignment got revealed.

Also, if we were scum we would have fired CKD way, way sooner. There were plenty of reasons we could've given for doing so, and no-one would've thought anything of it.

~Tal

[Mighty Orbots]

I'll leave out the acronym.

DGB was generally more trusted than us... we would have left her out of it.

I disagree here. You were, until recently, more trustworthy in my eyes. I'd have to go mine the thread and see if this is true of the rest of the living.

[1]Most likely we would have left ourselves offstage with Thok and a townie who couldn't run away by stunting. [2]If we were scum AD and could organise to lynch whoever we liked, it would not have been SL who had zero chance of being the AP.

1. This is irrelevant. The quicklynch prevented stunting from being an option.
2. As I said, I don't think anyone suspected SL of anything, making him just as good as the AP really.

Also, looking at it numerically. We knew the setup would be 5 innocent, 2 scum for a while. Obviously there were 4 scum left at the start of Day 7, making two of them expendable (since two were destined to die regardless). So what better way to use them than to quicklynch a really townie player and guarantee their best possible endgame at the same time?

We should keep the choices under wraps to not give info to scum, but I'll explain my reasoning tomorrow.

:/