Mafia 103 - Ktown Mafia (Game Over)

[Haylen]

Oh well, you know that state of mind where townie just give up after being attacked from all sides. Take that into account. Nothing I said would have helped in the slightest.

The correct attitude is to not talk about things that you dont understand and to not piss off other players for the hell of it.

[Faraday]

Oh well, you know that state of mind where townie just give up after being attacked from all sides. Take that into account. Nothing I said would have helped in the slightest.

I know what you mean, but that's still not a great attitude imo. Might as well try.

The correct attitude is to not talk about things that you dont understand and to not piss off other players for the hell of it.

I wasn't trying to piss you off, not

really

[Haylen]

I know what you mean, but that's still not a great attitude imo. Might as well try.

Here's a story.

There was once a player, she was a pretty good townie. Never got lynched, from her first game she was always night killed. In fact, that first game, she got night killed on night one cause she was making the IC-scum edgy. A few games into her mafia career, she played another game as town. Except this time was different. This time, she spent 30 pages defending herself from being attacked by everyone in the game, she defended herself til the cows came home, but was still lynched. After that game, she was able to play really well as scum, make proper good defense, fake scumhunted to a very good degree and was made the most protown player in a few of those games. But her town play was blocked. All of a sudden she found she couldn't play as town, she couldn't scumhunt and she couldn't defend herself well.

She doesn't know what happened. All she knows is that since that one game as town, she's barely been able to play at all as a town role. Any ideas what could be wrong?

[Furry]

Dont worry if haylenn is town guys. I take good care of my

prisoners

house guests

[Kdub]

Vote Count

CrueKnight (3)

- Torqez, Scott Brosius, Wickedestjr

Furry (0)

-

cruelty (1)

- Haylen

Sir Chris (0)

-

Scott Brosius (0)

-

Rhinox (0)

-

Wickedestjr (0)

-

malpascp (0)

-

Faraday (0)

-

SolemnJ (1)

- Furry

The Inquisition(0)

-

Torqez (0)

-

foilist13 (0)

-

Katniss (0)

-

Haylen (8)

- cruelty, Faraday, Rhinox, foilist13, Sir Chris, malpascp, The Inquisition, SolemnJ

No Lynch (0)

-

Not Voting (2)

- Katniss, CrueKnight

You string up Haylen in the town square. After checking her body, you find a loaded revolver. Success? Unfortunately, Haylen was a

Vigilante

.

Because of the holiday, Night 1's deadline will be extended to Monday night, ~11:59 pm MST. Please send in night choices before then.

[Kdub]

As dawn breaks, the citizens of Ktown gather once again in the town square, but you quickly realize that two of you are missing. After a brief search, you find the body of Scott Brosius, riddled with bullet holes. Nearby, you also find The Inquisition, hanging from a noose. A suicide note posted nearby reveals that they were town-aligned

Lovers

.

Day 2 has officially started.

Vote Count

CrueKnight (0)

-

Furry (0)

-

cruelty (0)

-

Sir Chris (0)

-

Rhinox (0)

-

Wickedestjr (0)

-

malpascp (0)

-

Faraday (0)

-

SolemnJ (0)

-

Torqez (0)

-

foilist13 (0)

-

Katniss (0)

-

No Lynch (0)

-

Not Voting (12)

- Katniss, CrueKnight, Torqez, SolemnJ, Wickedestjr, Furry, cruelty, Faraday, Rhinox, foilist13, Sir Chris, malpascp

12 players alive, 7 votes needed to lynch.

Deadline is December 19, ~11:00 am MST

[The Inquisition]

I knew my tryst with Scott would come back to haunt me. Goodbye. aaaggghhh

[Wickedestjr]

Hey guys. I'm a few pages back, but I will start catching up now. May be a bit slow, cuz I'm also watching a movie.

[Wickedestjr]

Crueknight has only spammed
and defended himself. And was kinda dumb about it, too.
His voting pattern consists of his random vote, and then his self vote.

He fits my mold of scum/badtown.

-Spamming (which almost everyone was doing)
-Defending himself "dumbly" (what exactly is 'dumbly' and why is it a tell?)
-Random/selfvote (why is this a tell?)

SJ is already saying that he could easily be newb town though, still keeping the groundwork for a jump if its needed.

This is misrepresenting SolemnJ. You are starting to look scummier. Also, the SolemnJ case isn't good.

Let me ask you, why? Why is this misrepresenting SolemnJ? What do you think of SolemnJ? And why are you defending him so?

His points were very valid tbh.

I will explain once SolemnJ responds to Furry's post.

Why do you pick wagons?

If I continue to vote for foilist, what good will that do?

1: If you have valid points against him, reveal it and we may all agree upon it.
2: Now you are acting pretty scummy.

1: I gave reasons. I don't recall you saying anything about them. Why don't you pay attention?

2: Really? So, I join my favorite bandwagon, because the deadline is close, and I don't want the day to end in a no-lynch, and that is scummy? I think you are just angry that I critisized the case against your defender. Am I right? OMGUS?

[Furry]

You still need to respond to my color code thing hun...

Just need to be completely sure that im going back to my yesterday vote so im going to do some skimming.

[cruelty]

lol @ haylen. grudge kill? bringing in the chuckles. i was wrong about your alignment but you played fucking atrociously.

vote: mal

Basically anonymous yesterday, a few vote changes and most notably hopped onto the Haylen wagon very late and without any real explanation. You got some questions to answer.

[Wickedestjr]

It is of course possible this is just how wicked plays, and if so, that can't be helped.

What kind of townie doesn't even check my meta? There is no reason not to. You just keep making up stupid excuses not to.

But SK in a game of 15 presents seem odd balancing issues I have found in the past. Talking about my own balancing, I'd never have a game of 15 with an SK, when 16 fits it so much better.

CK I would put a decent wager on being town (I would target him as a hider for example). The case on him mostly seems to be on weak reasoning, when I went through I had a hard time figuring anything out on it. Out of the four people voting him I have a slight town read on one (SB), the rest I wouldnt shed a tear if they got vigged. It just has quite a few of the markings of a wagon on town that is being pushed enough to be an alternative if a big wagon falls apart.

Haylen I dont see my vote going to outside of a deadline lynch, mostly due to a case *mostly* based on lurking. Im not a big lynch lurkers fan untill there is evidence (role or connection) that they are scum. When there are people who are legitimately scummy, they are a really poor lynch choice. If they are town, it has good chances of resulting in another mislynch.

You don't seem to be trying to divert the bandwagon to somebody you do suspect.

Please explain why the points against CrueKnight are bad. Don't just say they are bad. That doesn't do anything.

Also, you are underestimating the case against Haylen. It is not just lurking.


Also, please explain your town reads.

Crueknight has only spammed

and defended himself. And was kinda dumb about it, too.

His voting pattern consists of his random vote, and then his self vote.

He fits my mold of scum/badtown.

-Spamming (which almost everyone was doing)

-Defending himself "dumbly" (what exactly is 'dumbly' and why is it a tell?)

-Random/selfvote (why is this a tell?)

SJ is already saying that he could easily be newb town though, still keeping the groundwork for a jump if its needed.

This is misrepresenting SolemnJ. You are starting to look scummier. Also, the SolemnJ case isn't good.

???

So which of my colorful lines is wrong then?

Back to SJ case in a little

The orange and purple lines were misrepresentations.


foilist seems to be copying VistaSoldier's scummy behavior.

1: When is it acceptable to try and pressure vote someone that you have a town read on?
2: When is it acceptable to ever have a vote on a player you have a town read on?

1: There is nothing wrong with it, but I don't think it is unneccessary.

2: For pressure. There is nothing wrong with voting somebody to pressure them to confirm your town read on them. I have done it before.

Pressure voting a player is always fine, but you should always be willing to have that player lynched. A vote to lynch is a little more serious about that then pressure, but you should never say "damn I didnt want them lynched, I though they were town" if somehow a 10x multipost occurs lynching a player.

I mean frick, how hard is it for people to grasp this concept. Dont vote town, vote scum, pressure slight scum. Tah-dah!

Alright then. Consider the following possibility. DeathNote is still in the game and is hardly posting in the thread. For this reason, I have a neutral read on him. I vote him to pressure him and make him come and defend himself. When he does this, I look at his reaction to the vote to try and determine his allignment. Even though I voted him, and even though I didn't have a town read on him, and even though I didn't want him lynched, it was still a pressure vote. This is an example of how pressure votes aren't always towards players you want lynched. So, you did in fact contradict yourself.

[Wickedestjr]

@wicked - If Haylen flips town, you might have to take her place in the fuzzy handcuffs... or maybe cruel... Ill have time to ponder im sure

Why me? Why cruelty? Why not SolemnJ?

[Wickedestjr]

Vote: Furry

Respond to my last few posts please.

[Furry]

CK I would put a decent wager on being town (I would target him as a hider for example). The case on him mostly seems to be on weak reasoning, when I went through I had a hard time figuring anything out on it. Out of the four people voting him I have a slight town read on one (SB), the rest I wouldnt shed a tear if they got vigged. It just has quite a few of the markings of a wagon on town that is being pushed enough to be an alternative if a big wagon falls apart.

Haylen I dont see my vote going to outside of a deadline lynch, mostly due to a case *mostly* based on lurking. Im not a big lynch lurkers fan untill there is evidence (role or connection) that they are scum. When there are people who are legitimately scummy, they are a really poor lynch choice. If they are town, it has good chances of resulting in another mislynch.

You don't seem to be trying to divert the bandwagon to somebody you do suspect.

Please explain why the points against CrueKnight are bad. Don't just say they are bad. That doesn't do anything.

Also, you are underestimating the case against Haylen. It is not just lurking.

I was trying to get something on SJ started near the end of the day

Give me a clean outline of a CK wagon and I will explain why each point
is bad, that way im not missing things.

It was enough of lurking based things for me to not like it at all.

Also, please explain your town reads.

CK is town, the wagon on him is weak and most people are treating him as "yeah, kind of scummy", so the wagon is always there. This is something that I associate more with a town wagon then a scum wagon, especially when its one of two competing wagons. Couple that with what I said yesterday about SB being the only one on that wagon I even has a slight town read on, and im calling him town.

I liked what I saw from MS early in the exchanges, and rhinox came in looking town to me. Less then CK, but still enough to bring up. Kat is also gut-ish town, nothing concrete to back it up, but I dont really see him as scum.

Crueknight has only spammed

and defended himself. And was kinda dumb about it, too.

His voting pattern consists of his random vote, and then his self vote.

He fits my mold of scum/badtown.

-Spamming (which almost everyone was doing)

-Defending himself "dumbly" (what exactly is 'dumbly' and why is it a tell?)

-Random/selfvote (why is this a tell?)

SJ is already saying that he could easily be newb town though, still keeping the groundwork for a jump if its needed.

This is misrepresenting SolemnJ. You are starting to look scummier. Also, the SolemnJ case isn't good.

???

So which of my colorful lines is wrong then?

Back to SJ case in a little

The orange and purple lines were misrepresentations.

Purple I can see you argue, but orange I dont see as a misrep in the least bit.

1: When is it acceptable to try and pressure vote someone that you have a town read on?
2: When is it acceptable to ever have a vote on a player you have a town read on?

1: There is nothing wrong with it, but I don't think it is unneccessary.

2: For pressure. There is nothing wrong with voting somebody to pressure them to confirm your town read on them. I have done it before.

I dont like putting any pressure on town reads, they just move up and down in strength usually do to observation. Putting pressure on town reads will normally open up doors for others to put pressure on them, plus if I see you voting someone and calling them town at the same time, im going to be pushing your lynch.

Pressure voting a player is always fine, but you should always be willing to have that player lynched. A vote to lynch is a little more serious about that then pressure, but you should never say "damn I didnt want them lynched, I though they were town" if somehow a 10x multipost occurs lynching a player.

I mean frick, how hard is it for people to grasp this concept. Dont vote town, vote scum, pressure slight scum. Tah-dah!

Alright then. Consider the following possibility. DeathNote is still in the game and is hardly posting in the thread. For this reason, I have a neutral read on him. I vote him to pressure him and make him come and defend himself. When he does this, I look at his reaction to the vote to try and determine his allignment. Even though I voted him, and even though I didn't have a town read on him, and even though I didn't want him lynched, it was still a pressure vote. This is an example of how pressure votes aren't always towards players you want lynched. So, you did in fact contradict yourself.

Ummm... if you are coming up with a scenario like that doesnt mean I have contridicted myself. First off, I wouldnt ever of voted DN for that scenario, using others to get reads on him is better. Second, when I am voting someone for pressure, I am always at least somewhat ok with their lynch. I could be pressuing a secondary suspect, or a slight read, but whoever I am voting I would always be ok lynching.

This really does not have anything to do with alignments in this game though, just difference of opinions.

@wicked - If Haylen flips town, you might have to take her place in the fuzzy handcuffs... or maybe cruel... Ill have time to ponder im sure

Why me? Why cruelty? Why not SolemnJ?

You staying on the CK wagon while seeming content with the Haylen wagon going to a mislynch. It seems like you were avoiding the mislynch while staying on a different wagon I consider a mislynch. Cruel... just bothers me a bit on a gut level, nothing too much on that. I would rather play house with people who I dont think are top picks though.

Either way, its just fuzzy handcuffs. You are in good paws hun. Also reading a bit too much into me having fun, fun is an essential in these games you know.

[Faraday]

vote torquez

need to re-read the thread a bit but from memory he was worse than useless yesterday '-.-' iirc.

but i'm off to watch New Moon now (LOL I'M SO GAY) so yeh, that'll be tomorrow.

[Rhinox]

FYI: I will be on limited access until possibly next saturday.

I hope to be able to make brief posts between now and then. I'll be back home in PA trying to shoot me a deer. If all goes to plan I'll get one tomorrow and call it a week, but I have until next saturday blocked off for hunting if I need it.

I should be able to post something substantial later today once I get back to PA. One thing that makes me curious is why is furry so strongly defending ck as if he knows he's town... this was going on yesterday as well. I can understand saying that there isn't enough evidence to support ck being scum, but I certainly wouldn't call him town enough to avidly defend against his lynch. This sorta reeks of hypo-scum furry wanting to get town cred for trying to prevent a townie mislynch.

vote: furry

V/LA is noted

[Wickedestjr]

CK I would put a decent wager on being town (I would target him as a hider for example). The case on him mostly seems to be on weak reasoning, when I went through I had a hard time figuring anything out on it. Out of the four people voting him I have a slight town read on one (SB), the rest I wouldnt shed a tear if they got vigged. It just has quite a few of the markings of a wagon on town that is being pushed enough to be an alternative if a big wagon falls apart.

Haylen I dont see my vote going to outside of a deadline lynch, mostly due to a case *mostly* based on lurking. Im not a big lynch lurkers fan untill there is evidence (role or connection) that they are scum. When there are people who are legitimately scummy, they are a really poor lynch choice. If they are town, it has good chances of resulting in another mislynch.

You don't seem to be trying to divert the bandwagon to somebody you do suspect.

Please explain why the points against CrueKnight are bad. Don't just say they are bad. That doesn't do anything.

Also, you are underestimating the case against Haylen. It is not just lurking.

I was trying to get something on SJ started near the end of the day

Give me a clean outline of a CK wagon and I will explain why each point
is bad, that way im not missing things.

It was enough of lurking based things for me to not like it at all.

Okay

See my post #7, my post #25, and my post #26 in isolation. Also, please explain how forgetting his reasons for voting somebody wasn't scummy.

Then you are in fact underestimating the case. There were pretty good points on page 10.

Crueknight has only spammed

and defended himself. And was kinda dumb about it, too.

His voting pattern consists of his random vote, and then his self vote.

He fits my mold of scum/badtown.

-Spamming (which almost everyone was doing)

-Defending himself "dumbly" (what exactly is 'dumbly' and why is it a tell?)

-Random/selfvote (why is this a tell?)

SJ is already saying that he could easily be newb town though, still keeping the groundwork for a jump if its needed.

This is misrepresenting SolemnJ. You are starting to look scummier. Also, the SolemnJ case isn't good.

???

So which of my colorful lines is wrong then?

Back to SJ case in a little

The orange and purple lines were misrepresentations.

1: Purple I can see you argue, 2: but orange I dont see as a misrep in the least bit.

1: So it

was

misrepresenting?

2: I'll explain this one when SolemnJ returns.

[1: Ummm... if you are coming up with a scenario like that doesnt mean I have contridicted myself. First off, I wouldnt ever of voted DN for that scenario, using others to get reads on him is better. ] [2: Second, when I am voting someone for pressure, I am always at least somewhat ok with their lynch. I could be pressuing a secondary suspect, or a slight read, but whoever I am voting I would always be ok lynching.]

[3: This really does not have anything to do with alignments in this game though, just difference of opinions.]

1: What's wrong with coming up with another scenario? You said voting for somebody means you want them lynched. You also said pressure votes can be very helpful (or something like that). It doesn't matter that I brought up another scenario. It just shows that there are scenarios where pressure votes don't mean votes for a lynch. Also, who cares if you wouldn't have voted for him? It is just a scenario I came up with. You are doing a poor job of defending yourself.

2: I understand. You have reiterated this point over and over. That is the reason why I brought up that scenario.

3: Sort of. You contradicted yourself, and now you are trying to pretend to have this strange opinion on the subject in order to defend yourself. I can not see how you wouldn't understand this.

@wicked - If Haylen flips town, you might have to take her place in the fuzzy handcuffs... or maybe cruel... Ill have time to ponder im sure

Why me? Why cruelty? Why not SolemnJ?

You staying on the CK wagon while seeming content with the Haylen wagon going to a mislynch. It seems like you were avoiding the mislynch while staying on a different wagon I consider a mislynch. Cruel... just bothers me a bit on a gut level, nothing too much on that. I would rather play house with people who I dont think are top picks though.

So your reasons for suspecting me are basically because I supported the Haylen lynch and also suspected a person you believe to be town? Also, what about SolemnJ?

[Wickedestjr]

I should be able to post something substantial later today once I get back to PA. One thing that makes me curious is why is furry so strongly defending ck as if he knows he's town... this was going on yesterday as well. I can understand saying that there isn't enough evidence to support ck being scum, but I certainly wouldn't call him town enough to avidly defend against his lynch. This sorta reeks of hypo-scum furry wanting to get town cred for trying to prevent a townie mislynch.

vote: furry

Goodposting.

[Furry]

I should be able to post something substantial later today once I get back to PA. One thing that makes me curious is why is furry so strongly defending ck as if he knows he's town... this was going on yesterday as well. I can understand saying that there isn't enough evidence to support ck being scum, but I certainly wouldn't call him town enough to avidly defend against his lynch. This sorta reeks of hypo-scum furry wanting to get town cred for trying to prevent a townie mislynch.

vote: furry

This is how I play, I get a town read and im going to all out defend the town read. I dont think there is a game where I have not done this, in some cases much more then what I have in this game. Hell I know what happens in these scenarios too, if they get lynched I get ran up. If I can stop the lynch though its worth it.

[cruelty]

This is how I play, I get a town read and im going to all out defend the town read.

I don't really like people defending others. There's no real reason to do it as town (provided the person in question has an opportunity to defend themselves) and multiple reasons to do it as scum. Don't misunderstand - I have no issue with attacking a case, but you've definitively said that CK is town, and this is an example of a personal defence. To the point where there's been attacks coming in at him, and he hasn't replied at all today.

Hell I know what happens in these scenarios too, if they get lynched I get ran up. If I can stop the lynch though its worth it.

How is it worth it if you (as town) get "ran up" anyway? Surely that'd be a) a massive distraction for town (pro-scum) and b) a mislynch and again, pro-scum.

I don't like this stance in general. Defence won't win the battle for town, we need scumhunting, and regardless of CK's alignment, you're not actually contributing to this. You look busy, but I'm not sure how much actual pro-town content you're firing out.

First off, I wouldnt ever of voted DN for that scenario,

using others to get reads on him is better

.

How would you suggest others get those reads? He has no incentive to post as lurking scum with no pressure on him.

He looks to be the biggest bandwagon that I actually prefer, and we only have three days

You voted for CK.. fine. After that you never even mentioned the Haylen wagon. I find this highly contradictory to your playstyle throughout the game - you've been quoting and replying to basically everything, so how come you had nothing to say about a wagon building on someone who wasn't in your

top 4 suspects

? Not only that, but you're content with voting for your 4th placed suspect purely because it's a bandwagon. I really, really don't like this.

I am going to keep my vote on CrueKnight, but I would prefer to lynch foilist, Furry, or Katniss.

Then

He's number 4 and I'm guessing there's at least 4 scum. Also, I doubt I would be able to convince everybody to change this close to deadline and none of my top three suspects seem to be big bandwagon candidates.

This sort of apathy towards who gets lynched reeks of scum for me. I think I would be a lot less suspicious of you had you at least attacked the Haylen wagon - obviously you must have thought it a mislynch if she wasn't in your top 4 suspects - or actively pushed an alternate case, but you did neither. Explain.

[Furry]

This is how I play, I get a town read and im going to all out defend the town read.

I don't really like people defending others. There's no real reason to do it as town (provided the person in question has an opportunity to defend themselves) and multiple reasons to do it as scum. Don't misunderstand - I have no issue with attacking a case, but you've definitively said that CK is town, and this is an example of a personal defence. To the point where there's been attacks coming in at him, and he hasn't replied at all today.

I feel that under no scenario you should be letting someone who you think is town get lynched. If it means outright defending someone, I will outright defend someone. If it means moving a vote to stop them from getting lynched, then I will move a vote. Not allowing town to be lynched is quite an effective way of letting town win.

Hell I know what happens in these scenarios too, if they get lynched I get ran up. If I can stop the lynch though its worth it.

How is it worth it if you (as town) get "ran up" anyway? Surely that'd be a) a massive distraction for town (pro-scum) and b) a mislynch and again, pro-scum.

I don't like this stance in general. Defence won't win the battle for town, we need scumhunting, and regardless of CK's alignment, you're not actually contributing to this. You look busy, but I'm not sure how much actual pro-town content you're firing out.

I said ran up, I didnt say lynched. Im good enough at being able to talk my way out of most scenarios, mostly because in these situations the majority of the case against me is "called someone town" when that is exactly what I did, and will readily admit to doing.

Its not really ever a distraction, as after people burn out on that, scumhunting returns. I did quite a bit of pushing at the end of the last day on SJ, who on a skim-read of day one, I still like as the best pick for scum.

[foilist13]

Furry's defense of CK depends on his meta. If in his other games he does the same thing as town and scum indiscriminately then it's a null tell. If he's never done it, or gotten a good result from it the one time he did it as scum (or something along those lines), then it looks like a scum tell.

@Cruelty - Is wicked your top suspect?

[cruelty]

I would say I find his behaviour the most questionable.

[Torqez]

vote torquez

need to re-read the thread a bit but from memory he was worse than useless yesterday '-.-' iirc.

but i'm off to watch New Moon now (LOL I'M SO GAY) so yeh, that'll be tomorrow.

Sorry guys, I just got back from Australia on a business trip and coupled with me being inactive on Weekends made for some non-contributing.

I'll be active as of tomorrow! And will do a proper read then.