Mini 884 - Last Man Standing (Over)

[Nachomamma8]

why are you assuming anything in the first place?

Please tell me what I was assuming. If I recall correctly, my first post directed at you was a question so that I wouldn't have to assume. You did not answer and that sparked this whole discussion {between you and I}.

I'm guessing that your answer is that it was a serious Vote {because you still have not said}.

Would you say that the discussion helped move the town in a much better direction?

How does this make you feel?

While I'm wary that someone I find a bit scummy {due to the RVS extension thing} is following my lead, I don't have too much of a problem with Ecto's post. It would be rather odd for me to go after someone who shares the same opinion as me. I'm more concerned with a few of the others on my wagon, but nothing overwhelming for the moment.

Why would it be odd for you to attack someone who shared your beliefs? If you believed someone was piggybacking onto your reasoning, wouldn't it be the for the benefit of the town to point that out?

Wow, an actual answer.

Lol! You are the one who has been refusing to answer things, Nacho. Where have I dodged your questions {or anyone's, for that matter}? Was your Vote on Ecto Random or not?

You took the comment the wrong way. Switch out actual for legit and you are much closer to the original meaning. As to your last question, it was at first. But then I saw all of the interesting things coming along with it, so I just went with the flow.

Do you agree with Ecto's former statement that you don't need a scum motive to vote someone?

First, I think you're taking this a bit out of context. Let me pull the reference so it's clear in everyone's minds.

There does not have to be an assignable scum 'motive' for your reaction. Instead it illustrates a mindset of a player who does not wish to divulge any information or be held to a specific opinion.

I believe he is saying that we don't need to fully know the Scum motivation behind something to consider it scummy. I generally agree with this, although it's a bit flimsy for my taste.

For me, scummy things are things that have considerable scum motives behind it. What are scummy things to you?

@Ben: But when the RVS has already ended, is it scummy to attempt to extend it?

Where do you consider the RVS as having ended, Nacho?

The second time I deflected your question.

Mmkay, then demonstrate how my mindset can be attributed to scum by example.

Didn't I do this in p62? And wasn't it ignored? Is that a theme for you, Nacho? Or did you miss it 'wading through all the bullshit' of a 3 point post?

Didn't I ask Ecto this question?
[/quote]

[Sotty7]

Interesting how? I'm blind.

I am also allowed to change my mind as the game progresses. I am not liking Amished one little bit right now.

[Sotty7]

Sorry I didn't see the new page. The above was directed at Ben.

[Benmage]

Why is Sotty obv obv Town? For defending you...?

It's called a joke. However, I do have a town read on her. Her play here is consistent with Sotty-town.

How? Explain? or is this a reverse meta usage. (more buddying?).

[d3x]

d3x, would you like to actually take stances on people?

I don't like making Town/Scum lists because it gives Scum a lot of information, imo. I will give a few Scum reads I have though. Note- these are not the only players I feel are leaning Scum, just the ones I wish to discuss atm.

Nacho
He effectively disappeared when the heat came off of him. He still hasn't answered a growing list of questions and I can't figure any proTown motivation for it {though I can think of a few proScum ones}.

Amished
The third party speculation doesn't really hold water. Only Scum truly know the balance of the game and would then be in the best position to guess at 3rd parties {aside from 3rd parties themselves}.

pwnz
This is mostly gut based on the sparse interactions and pretty severe lack of ScumHunting. He's lurking pretty well and when he does pop in, there's not really much meat to his 3 game related posts.

[VP Baltar]

Ben, do you think I have been avoiding commenting on people? Are my opinions on players not clear? If so, who would you like my opinion on exactly?

Also,

Let's for the sake of argument accept your attack of me coasting this game as being legitimate (which it's not). How is this absolutely indicative of me being scum? How do you know I would never coast as town? Do you think I am coasting the most out of everyone in this game? If not, why do you think my coasting makes me more likely to be scum than those other players?

These aren't rhetorical questions.

[Benmage]

Interesting how? I'm blind.

I am also allowed to change my mind as the game progresses. I am not liking Amished one little bit right now.

Sure ones allowed to change their mind...You may dislike Amish for whatever reason, i dont think you've really illustrated why.

Because the buddying thing is weak as hell.. Ok he buddy's me, fine you can dislike that.

But I, Vi, him... all were like 'awesome' when Con healed..so how can you hate on someone buddyin a doc?? doesnt make sense.

And you ignore VPB who appeared to be buddyin you(so this cant be a vendetta against "buddying")...soo not blind, interesting...alternative motive perhaps..idno, but definitely interesting.

[Sotty7]

Ben, are you saying you don't see the difference in calling someone Obvtown in the manner VP did and how Amished practically wet his pants over your case and confids heal?

[VP Baltar]

Why is Sotty obv obv Town? For defending you...?

It's called a joke. However, I do have a town read on her. Her play here is consistent with Sotty-town.

How? Explain? or is this a reverse meta usage. (more buddying?).

wtf do you mean explain? Her play is consistent with my personal town meta of her. I have a decent amount of experience with Sotty and consider myself a decent judge of her play.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho
He effectively disappeared when the heat came off of him. He still hasn't answered a growing list of questions and I can't figure any proTown motivation for it {though I can think of a few proScum ones}.

Find me the ones I've missed, then.

[Benmage]

Ben, do you think I have been avoiding commenting on people?

Probably, i'd have to look back and see, but i dont really care.

Are my opinions on players not clear? If so, who would you like my opinion on exactly?

Me again please. I'd love to rehear the reason for voting me.

How is this absolutely indicative of me being scum?

Coasting is scummy.

How do you know I would never coast as town?

It doesnt matter. Coasting is scummy. I dont care if you act scummy as town, all the more reason to lynch you.

Do you think I am coasting the most out of everyone in this game?

I dont know.

If not, why do you think my coasting makes me more likely to be scum than those other players?

See above.

Please dont just rattle off questions again, that really suck and lead nowhere and are more or less already stated or can be deduced. It wastes my time and I considered it fluff and an attempt to look busy/inquisitive without getting anything concrete on the table.

[Benmage]

Why is Sotty obv obv Town? For defending you...?

It's called a joke. However, I do have a town read on her. Her play here is consistent with Sotty-town.

How? Explain? or is this a reverse meta usage. (more buddying?).

wtf do you mean explain? Her play is consistent with my personal town meta of her. I have a decent amount of experience with Sotty and consider myself a decent judge of her play.

So this is what...a reverse of what i said about you right?

[Sotty7]

Interesting how? I'm blind.

I am also allowed to change my mind as the game progresses. I am not liking Amished one little bit right now.

Sure ones allowed to change their mind...You may dislike Amish for whatever reason, i dont think you've really illustrated why.

Because the buddying thing is weak as hell.. Ok he buddy's me, fine you can dislike that.

But I, Vi, him... all were like 'awesome' when Con healed..so how can you hate on someone buddyin a doc?? doesnt make sense.

And you ignore VPB who appeared to be buddyin you(so this cant be a vendetta against "buddying")...soo not blind, interesting...alternative motive perhaps..idno, but definitely interesting.

Okay maybe you have a point, I haven't explained it well enough the buddying is just part of my case. Here are my reasons in full:

I dislike Amished for his 3rd party chatter with d3x. I still don't know how you can spot scum from 3rd party so early in the game. Then we combine that with his weak jump on the VP wagon. Look back and you will see he barely mentions VP before his vote. One mention is a slight defense of VP early in the game and then later he mentions that VP hasn't been pushing the game forwards. This is forcing VP to live up to a crazy standard of play, and didn't take into account VP's V/LA.

I call him out on his vote, he then questions me as if I am silly

not

to know his VP reasoning. Does not compute.

You then post your case on VP and he jumps all over you for making such an awesome post. I am not calling the level of awesomeness in the post into account here, just the fact he latched onto it without having gone into detail for why he is voting VP himself, now he has a case to use. Also he doesn't state what is great about the post or why, it's just freaking awesome.

Fast forward and we get the confid heal and suddenly that is super awesome too. I mean seriously? I don't buy these reactions one bit, I think it is scum forcing.

Add all these things up and Amished is my number one and where my vote is.

[Benmage]

Ben, are you saying you don't see the difference in calling someone Obvtown in the manner VP did and how Amished practically wet his pants over your case and confids heal?

Do you think VPB was serious when he called you obv town?

[Benmage]

Alright Scotty, that was much better/clearer. I see why you hold your suspicions whether or not I agree. The Con thing imo is still null..the 3rd party and VPB vote holds weight, but i still think amish is town, especially with some of the little back n forth he and i had.

[ConfidAnon]

Go over the reason why its was on me..it was quite crappy.

And look at the pbpa, and the conclusion involving this game alone...ignore the meta crap...i keep saying this!?!??!

I thought the reasons for the wagon were quite valid, actually.

Nacho
He effectively disappeared when the heat came off of him. He still hasn't answered a growing list of questions and I can't figure any proTown motivation for it {though I can think of a few proScum ones}.

This is truth. Nacho come back and scumhunt.

Sure ones allowed to change their mind...You may dislike Amish for whatever reason, i dont think you've really illustrated why.

Because the buddying thing is weak as hell.. Ok he buddy's me, fine you can dislike that.

But I, Vi, him... all were like 'awesome' when Con healed..so how can you hate on someone buddyin a doc?? doesnt make sense.

And you ignore VPB who appeared to be buddyin you(so this cant be a vendetta against "buddying")...soo not blind, interesting...alternative motive perhaps..idno, but definitely interesting.

1. I'm not a doc.

2. The last segment of this post bothers me. Someone calls Sotty town . . . so you find a point on Sotty. You didn't call it scumy, but interesting. This reads to me like your trying to keep as many people from looking town as possible to increase the chances of a mislynch.

[Benmage]

Go over the reason why its was on me..it was quite crappy.

And look at the pbpa, and the conclusion involving this game alone...ignore the meta crap...i keep saying this!?!??!

I thought the reasons for the wagon were quite valid, actually.

Can you please restate them than.

1. I'm not a doc.

2. The last segment of this post bothers me. Someone calls Sotty town . . . so you find a point on Sotty. You didn't call it scumy, but interesting. This reads to me like your trying to keep as many people from looking town as possible to increase the chances of a mislynch.

1. whatever semantics obviously i dont know, but you healed.

2. This isnt a scenario where everyone is innocent until proven guilty. Noone is confirmed town for me. I'm in no way pushing a lynch against scotty nor even think him to be scum..but something i dont see d1 may come to light d3, or be tied into a multitude of things later. I noted his behavior is all, but he gave a better response so all in all, null.

[VP Baltar]

So this is what...a reverse of what i said about you right?

No, not at all. If you attack someone over meta, then the onus is on you to show the disparity. If I say I have a town read on someone over meta, I don't have any requirement to explain myself and reveal said meta. The reason being that if you are trying to get someone lynched, you are going to have to convince other people and will obviously have to tip your hand. I'm not trying to convince you of my town read. You're welcome to have a different interpretation of Sotty's play, but from my perspective she's town.

re: post 360- I want everyone to take a good look at ben's responses to these questions, as it is very telling of his mentality and the "case" he is presenting.

First he says he doesn't even know if I haven't been commenting on people and that he doesn't care if I am or not. Well that is funny considering that his main argument is that I'm "coasting". If I'm coasting, then I must not be taking stance in the game, correct? Isn't that what active lurkers do, avoid taking stances and merely "look busy"? However, ben doesn't even know if I am nor does he care. So, already he is showing that he doesn't even have a clear understanding of the accusation he is making.

Second, he continually acts as if I never stated a reason for voting him. This is also false.

you followed the nacho wagon without even really understanding it and now you're far to eager to jump on ConfidAnon before he has even had a chance to explain himself. If you have nothing original to add to it, I don't see any real reason for you to be in a clamor to join the wagon, especially when your previous post said that you had JUST read him in iso and didn't see any reason to be voting him.

After I said that, I also punched a bunch of holes in his alleged iso read of Confid that led him to a vote. It's all there in the thread for anyone who is interested, which ben is clearly not.

Third, after I showed that ben's argument really does have its roots in meta, I asked him how he knows I would never "coast" as town. His response:

It doesnt matter. Coasting is scummy. I dont care if you act scummy as town, all the more reason to lynch you.

So, it doesn't matter if I'm town, but we should lynch me anyway. THIS IS NOT A TOWN MENTALITY.

Fourth, he ignores the most important question of if he thinks I am "coasting" the most out of everyone in this game and if not, what makes me scummy for it as opposed to other potential coasters. This is a crucial question if this is really the case he wants to present. If "coasting is scummy", as ben puts it, then what makes VP Baltar more likely to be scum than a player like, say, pwnz, who it could be very easily argued has "coasted" a great deal more than myself?

It is quite funny that these questions that poke holes in ben's argument are nothing more than "fluff" to him. Keep pushing that rock, bud.

[Sotty7]

Ben, are you saying you don't see the difference in calling someone Obvtown in the manner VP did and how Amished practically wet his pants over your case and confids heal?

Do you think VPB was serious when he called you obv town?

I thought it was tongue in cheek really and I thought he was being semi serious while making a joke (considering what he quoted was me defending him). So either he is telling the truth and I have played

way

too many games with VP, or he lied about it being a joke and I was wrong.

Alright Scotty, that was much better/clearer. I see why you hold your suspicions whether or not I agree. The Con thing imo is still null..the 3rd party and VPB vote holds weight, but i still think amish is town, especially with some of the little back n forth he and i had.

Fair enough. Maybe when I get my energy back I will try and show you why you should see things my way.

[Vi]

Vi, what do you think of Amished's vote on VP?

My initial thought was "of course now that I'm dying someone listens".

If anyone's vote is purely based on meta, it's Amished's. And he jumped off the Benmage wagon to make it, also in a somewhat abrupt disappearance of suspicion. The posts surrounding the change of pace involve saying things like the whole third-party thing was "testing the waters", I'm obviously playing scummily this game so I can't be read as Town, and all kinds of other things that make me wonder how bad it could be to just have everyone shoot each other.

-----

Well, I'd hope there's a difference. I was scum in that game and I'm town here.

I wasn't comparing those two games.

Also, Mafia of Order is a unique situation where I was actually the only townsperson alive who was playing the game. Plus the scum were being so frakking obvious it was hurting my head to even look at that game and not see them getting lynched. As I stated in that game, mafia is a game about teams and no one person should have to do all of the leg work to find the scum. I'm not about to go through that experience again.

Well, you'll notice that everyone's NOT lynching ConfidAnon, we're not doing a great job of lynching Benmage, and attention is on... you. What's the difference now?

Also, are you sure you're not a Tarhalindur alt? He's the only other person I know who fraks.

-

Based on my expectation of Benmage's experience I want to call Town, albeit a very misunderstandable Town.
I read him as doing his best,
tho' it be love's labor all but lost,
and besides, his scumtell is
one of mellifluous diction.

Your vote on him is basically for reasons that were already stated by other people (though they did apply at the time). Likewise with your ConfidAnon vote. And that's... *checks* all of your votes.

----

I don't like making Town/Scum lists because it gives Scum a lot of information, imo.

Frankly, your opinion is incorrect.
Is Nacho the best place for your vote right now?

----

It wounds my soul to move my vote from Ectomancer-scum, but I can hop onto an Amished wagon.

Unvote: Ectomancer
Vote: Amished

(L-5)

----

Also, while rereading I saw this

Donkitty

and the mental image is now

rightfully

ingrained >.>

[Benmage]

So this is what...a reverse of what i said about you right?

No, not at all. If you attack someone over meta, then the onus is on you to show the disparity. If I say I have a town read on someone over meta, I don't have any requirement to explain myself and reveal said meta. The reason being that if you are trying to get someone lynched, you are going to have to convince other people and will obviously have to tip your hand. I'm not trying to convince you of my town read. You're welcome to have a different interpretation of Sotty's play, but from my perspective she's town.

I made a comment..Nothing of too much worth, on something i noticed regardin meta...I wasn't and have repeated this multiple times that I wasn't going to try and convince people of a meta argument. You keep running this broken record tangent.

re: post 360- I want everyone to take a good look at ben's responses to these questions, as it is very telling of his mentality and the "case" he is presenting.

The post is a little, crappy and cynical.. Surely I could've came up with better answers, but i didnt want to put in the effort, and was actually frustrated that you just rattled off these really in my opinion bad-useless questions that seemed more like deflection than anything. I can build on the original questions, but not now..brain hurts.

First he says he doesn't even know if I haven't been commenting on people and that he doesn't care if I am or not. Well that is funny considering that his main argument is that I'm "coasting". If I'm coasting, then I must not be taking stance in the game, correct? Isn't that what active lurkers do, avoid taking stances and merely "look busy"? However, ben doesn't even know if I am nor does he care. So, already he is showing that he doesn't even have a clear understanding of the accusation he is making.

Your right. I'm sure there are people you havent focus'd on, or maybe barely mention to look busy, but when i answered your deflection i didnt care to cipher through everything and check all the facts. My point remains, and I could back it if I had to. (given some time to rest)

Second, he continually acts as if I never stated a reason for voting him. This is also false.

False, come on...I asked you to restate. Throughout our argument/discussion/bickering there shouldn't be a need to exaggerate. Or i guess, AtE to make things sound better our way.

you followed the nacho wagon without even really understanding it and now you're far to eager to jump on ConfidAnon before he has even had a chance to explain himself. If you have nothing original to add to it, I don't see any real reason for you to be in a clamor to join the wagon, especially when your previous post said that you had JUST read him in iso and didn't see any reason to be voting him.

After I said that, I also punched a bunch of holes in his alleged iso read of Confid that led him to a vote. It's all there in the thread for anyone who is interested, which ben is clearly not.

Okay i really dont feel like looking over that early nacho thing..but will if i have to, feel free to consider it a bad vote at the moment, we can rehash is latter if we need to.

The Confid Iso was real little post of mine...Are you talking about it in conjunction with the iso reads i did on the people voting Con??I didnt see you punching holes through it. I have read it and reread it. Please dont ignore this, and please dont say its in the thread but actually show me. Answer me. Illustrate where you punched wholes.

Right now I'll yield the nacho thing, but I want more on how my actions as a whole revolving Con in its entirety were bad, or scummy.

Third, after I showed that ben's argument really does have its roots in meta, I asked him how he knows I would never "coast" as town. His response:

It doesnt matter. Coasting is scummy. I dont care if you act scummy as town, all the more reason to lynch you.

So, it doesn't matter if I'm town, but we should lynch me anyway. THIS IS NOT A TOWN MENTALITY.

Third? I thought 1st bullets revolved around the case on me?? Your posts just reek of you trying to sound/look good....anyways...

Hell yeah it is. Going by the games we've previously stated with you and me, you going to say i've never pushed a policy lynch? What you are essentially suggesting is that we allow scummy behavior to slide because "its how you are as town" bullshit scummy behavior sees the rope. Zwet for example should see the ropes in pregame of every game he signs up for.

Fourth, he ignores the most important question of if he thinks I am "coasting" the most out of everyone in this game and if not, what makes me scummy for it as opposed to other potential coasters. This is a crucial question if this is really the case he wants to present. If "coasting is scummy", as ben puts it, then what makes VP Baltar more likely to be scum than a player like, say, pwnz, who it could be very easily argued has "coasted" a great deal more than myself?

Haha i knew what answer you wanted. I said idno because yeah pwnz was in mind. I havent had the opportunity to focus/readup more on him because my energy is spent elsewhere.

It is quite funny that these questions that poke holes in ben's argument are nothing more than "fluff" to him. Keep pushing that rock, bud.

I dont think i called anything even about me "fluff" in my pbpa, do you want me to requote the ones i did call fluff?

[Benmage]

Also on point 4 VPB. There is a gut read within me on you (meta, whatever) that is going to give me more reason to focus my energy on you in convincing others of your scummy behavior.

[d3x]

Find me the ones I've missed, then.

Seriously? Up until p350 {which was posted right before my post} you had answered next to nothing.

Now let me get to my responses...

You were refering to my guess at your intent? Because you wouldn't tell me? Fine, then I accept that I assumed your meaning due to your refusal to answer my questions.

Would you say that the discussion helped move the town in a much better direction?

Yes. I feel that this has helped me to get a read on you. I also believe that it helped to end the RVS.

If you believed someone was piggybacking onto your reasoning, wouldn't it be the for the benefit of the town to point that out?

Yes, but I don't believe that Ecto was. He came out with a full post with details. As I said, I felt stronger that others on the wagon were suspiciously joining the wagon.

For me, scummy things are things that have considerable scum motives behind it. What are scummy things to you?

I include things that have the strong potential to have Scum motives behind it.

Didn't I ask Ecto this question?

Yes, but you asked me first and then ignored my answer. When you brought it back up to another player, I couldn't help but connect the two.

-------------------------

Frankly, your opinion is incorrect.

Then we must agree to disagree on this. As Scum, I've used others' lists to play Town off of each other and gauge where I stand with others as a barometer. 'Incorrect' or not, that's my experience.

Is Nacho the best place for your vote right now?

I'm comfortable with my Vote being here for the time being. We're not pressed for deadline right now and I feel like there's something more here. I came back from V/LA, called him out, and he immediately started posting again.

[Nachomamma8]

I include things that have the strong potential to have Scum motives behind it.

Not sure what you meant by this.

[Amished]

*sigh* this is gonna take a while. I'll try to keep it as short as possible, but I can't promise anything.

@PCE: {why pwnz and nm8} Because I haven't seen them for a while, d3x had already posted that he's catching up, you were around and everyone else was as active as they said they'd be (VP being V/LA factors into this).

@VP/Sotty {d3x third party} If there's a third party, d3x is my #1 candidate. I have never pushed against him, nor really put any effort into questioning him directly about it. Reading what he's posted now; he's still likely it. If I had wanted to, it'd be relatively easy to justify the position that we should get rid of a third party and reduce the number of kills that we're up against. However, I've continued to scumhunt despite what I've said the whole game about d3x. This is not the course of action of a scum (Yes, scream WIFOM)

@VP specifically on this point: It was not wild speculation. I'm using the same manner of looking at everyone that EMPTyger used in LOST mafia. The correlations between d3x and Zone are pretty darn high for tone of posting; so it's not wild, nor baseless, nor anything else you really want to say. I call them like I see em; I didn't feel the need to withhold my suspicions about a player if later in the game something points to me being right.

{Benmage's post} (no offense, Bm) I've never seen a post from Ben that was that long and had a single thought and coherent tone throughout. They're often fragmented and kinda all over the place, but with this one he had one purpose and he spoke as concisely as I've ever seen. Sure, attack me for actually congratulating the best put together post I've seen from another player. Also, his post wasn't so much about meta; as what you've done this game. His meta about 91 is weak as I remember that I thought you were protown and active til Vi came and rained on your picnic.

@d3x: It was mainly that post (59? no clue to the accurate number) that stuck in my mind. I can point to some now that further emphasize the point that I would make; but that's not the crux of the issue. Just from that post (probably some others that I saw, but that one in particular) I haven't had a gut-scum read like that since I read one of Rhinox's early posts in cowboy bebop mafia (that was a pretty excellent game, too bad it was slightly broken for the town).

@Sotty: After Vi was shot, the reactions she made made her intensely pro-town. I wasn't impressed with her game before (obviously) but after shooting; I would've fully expected scum to shoot whoever they could in an attempt to bring the town down with her. Therefore, I was happy as hell that a new strong town read not going to die.

I also want to dissuade this line of attacking (mostly cause it's bogus): Before Vi was shot (or around that time, either way, before CA came out as a healer) I had dropped my suspicion of CA. He was neutral-town; and when he healed Vi; he jumped to basically confirmed town in my opinion.

Nacho, d3x: FOCUS. Stop squabbling and weigh in on the matter at hand. You attacking each other is distracting from the major issue here!

@Sotty: I don't expect him to lead the game to victory stomping on scum's heads just cause he can. I expect him to scumhunt (which isn't unreasonable) and I'll show how he's failed to meet that criterion. My question to you about why I'm voting for VP was to see what you thought it was. Here's a hint:

Unfortunately, I'm agreeing with Ben's vote; VP's activity this game (content, not necessarily number of posts) is awful (both in content and driving the game forward).

I specifically mention his content twice; and the lack of driving the game forward does not equate to OMG FIND SCUM NAO OR I SHOOT U!. Lack of driving the game forward is asking questions, trying to find out alignments, actually doing stuff when he's around.

Apparently, I'm being voted for thinking that benmage is becoming a better player, having somebody remain alive for the day that I finally have a town read on, getting a solid town read out of it because of the healing, and not stating my full case when I voted when not questioned about it at the time. (hint: most/all are terrible reasons)

@Vi: Your play really confuses me

Finally, I want to point out that I was the one that helped to figure out why dj should almost certainly be considered obvtown based on non-WIFOM data.

When it's not midnight; I'll address VP and Benmage's posts.