Mafia 103 - Ktown Mafia (Game Over)

[Faraday]

Erm that's 4 days away, so soon enough. K back to re-reading.

[Rhinox]

actually... its 6 days I think... unless I forgot how to count. so about a week.

[Faraday]

or that.

[Kdub]

foilist13 replaces VistaSoldier. Thanks Faraday and foilist13!

[Kdub]

Vote Count

CrueKnight (4)

- foilist13, Torqez, Scott Brosius, SolemnJ

Furry (1)

- Faraday

cruelty (1)

- Haylen

WarWound (0)

-

Scott Brosius (0)

-

Rhinox (0)

-

Wickedestjr (0)

-

malpascp (0)

-

Faraday (0)

-

SolemnJ (1)

- Furry

DeathNote (0)

-

Torqez (0)

-

foilist13 (1)

- Wickedestjr

Katniss (0)

-

Haylen (1)

- cruelty

No Lynch (0)

-

Not Voting (6)

- WarWound, Katniss, malpascp, CrueKnight, Rhinox, DeathNote

15 players alive, 8 votes needed to lynch.

Deadline is November 25, ~ 8:30 am MST

The deadline being a day before Thanksgiving might be a problem, so if you would like an extension, send me a PM. If the majority of the players want an extension, I will grant one, probably an extra week.

[Rhinox]

foilist13 replaces VistaSoldier. Thanks Faraday and foilist13!

Wait weren't you lynched already???

oh.. wrong game

welcome enjoy the read

[Faraday]

BLAH REPLACING, gonna run through the thread and see what pops out. I hope to just get involved quite quickly and interacting with players, makes things easier. Ask any questions or stuff, I may have missed things in my read...

Has anybody figured out who's scum yet?

Yep. J-Fox and YamiJoey. She hasn't been around long enough to know his name unless they have been talking pre-game. So bleh! Haylen, awesome scumhunter ftw.

How serious was this?

Voting for yourself is bad, don't do it etc etc.

Wicked's question are mostly useless but at least he's trying. Nice pouncing on the 'slip' btw, I'd give it more credence if I thought 2 scum was especiall likely, but I don't see it in a Large game.

Haylen = Mastin, apparently. But moving on.

Post 95 makes me want to smack my head against a wall. Why did you vote yourself here? And you hate being in the spotlight but voted yourself. WAT. Does not compute.

Fucking hell wicked 'why aren't you the serial killer' is an awful question to ask someone /facepalm. Does make some good points though. Feels different to when I played with him before, he was town, I was scum in that game, but yeh he seems to have improved.

SQUIRREL'S 106 is stupid, even if you don't like his posts ignoring him is bad play.

Nothing is necessarily 'wrong' with bandwagoning, but mafia do use that as a tactic to pile up votes on a person, for a quick lynch. On the other hand, as seen in this day 1 it appears to be a good thing, because it can start up more serious discussion. 

I didn't vote, because there are two options I had to pick between. I'm also giving them a chance to defend themselves, so I can get an accurate read, before using my vote. 

Mafia aren';t the only ones who bandwagon. Bandwagons are great and should be used more often.

I don't understand the second part, why not put down a vote on one of them? It can always be removed, it's not there for the day. Plus it adds some pressure to them.

Furry is :goodposting: so far.

Solemn: Do you believe chainsaw defence to be an accurate tell? Have you used it before in games to find scum?

120 is goodposting.

 I disagree. Asking stupid questions just spams up the thread and distracts us from any real evidence that other players might have or any scummy actions of theirs. Plus, it just makes you look stupid and detracts from any credibility I give your posts in the future. 

Asking questions is worse than voting for yourself or just fucking around for the first 2 pages? Don't they distract us from any real evidence too?
Last sentence is BAD. I can understand your frustation I guess, as the question originally was pretty pointless, but meh ignoring people is bad.

Don't understand katniss's vote and unvote of wicked. He didn't really do a lot in that time to make you unvote, and I don't like the reasons for you voting him in the first place.


Hey How do you distinguish between scum and badtown with this method though? It'd also be nice if you said which you thought he was.

Big giant fucking wat @ Vistasoldier's first post(I think) 155. Defending yourself is scummy now, apparently?

Agree w/ cruelty. Good vote too. Haylen's response of it being early game is a terrible excuse.

Hey Malpa, nice to see you just checking in dude. This is like a cool hotel, and stuff. Idk maybe post some content dude?

'Stop going for an easy lynch' says haylen. YO Haylen I'm really happy for you and Imma let you finish but

Vote Haylen

I'm just voting for pressure. I do not have any intentions to lynch you. So can you quote it? We can then look from there.

By saying this you remove all pressure from your vote. Happy Birthday.

Wicke/Squirrel makes my eyes go sleepy. I find the whole argument pretty uninteresting.

Need to get caught up, but this is a fail of a HoS. Pressure votes work wonders. People play differently under pressure 

Agree that it's a FAIL. But, mostly b/c what he HOS'd for wasn't scummy, just not optimal play.

Wicked has twice now pointed out that he's never been scum. Noted.

Katniss stop being so indecisive. Fence sitting is scummy.

Imo, people have a tendency to overuse smileys and make light of a situation they otherwise would prefer to not be in

Agreed. I think it's probably quite useful as a tell.

Haylen instead of pointing out rule breaking, maybe post content. Also what was the point of pointing that out in the first place?

Agreed with the Haylen votes. More wagon now quickly.

234 is a post that's not needed. Perhaps you should have spent that time re-reading the thread instead?

HAYLEN DOES DO OMGUS, in 239, lmao.

Just read her in ISO after this. Absolutely nothing. V happy w/ my vote.

259, Deathnote you disagree with the Haylen votes then? Why?

Haylen wagon is bad, furry? Why? She's done absolutely nothing.

Post 273. Wicked you're willing to vote yourself? WTF??

For the point - Cruelty, removing everything regarding lurking/fluff, what do you think of Haylen? 

Why are we removing these things when they're both scummy?


Eh kinda skimmed the last page or 2. Rhinox has came in with a bang, his sig was also the reason I replaced in.

Anyway quite happy with my haylen vote at the moment. This is not a pressure vote, this is a 'your lack of content and lurking have been scummy' vote.

Katniss's lack of position on everything, pretty much, is worrying, though some of her posts do give me a generally newb town read.

Wicked seems town so far too.

CK is also fairly scummy and I don't mind the wagon on him.

There's a couple of people who need to post a lot more.

[Furry]

Haylen wagon is bad, furry? Why? She's done absolutely nothing.

Almost every lynch ive seen that concentrates on "lurking" as much as this does ends up being a town lynch. Lurking is kind of a scum tell, I prefer to see a few flips and then if lurkers look scummy kill them off fast. Or policy vig habitual ones.

For the point - Cruelty, removing everything regarding lurking/fluff, what do you think of Haylen? 

Why are we removing these things when they're both scummy?

They are applicable to multiple people. Its worth noting where his vote would be if everyones activity level was the exact same, as these are more core (and reliable) tells. Also if he is putting Haylen-town ahead of scum players primarily due to this, then thats a whole 'nother tell on its own.

Also replacing is awesome. I only replace (except for one good theme) although usually its later in the game then page 3. Fuzzy handcuffs are awesome too, dont knock it if you havent tried it.

[Faraday]

I don't believe I did knock fuzzy handcuffs, now with the most important part of the post oput of the way..

Well I'll flatly disagree with the first bit, but obviously your personal experience, is well your own. She's posted enough non content posts, and zero content.

I don't think asking to remove things from a person's play is helpful though, I mean I guess I see what you're after just don't think it's very helpful.

[Faraday]

Also too many pointless quote walls in the thread, try and condense your posts and make your points, they're far easier to read, and look more pleasing to my Irish eyes. <3

(yeh yeh I used quotes too but w/e)

[Furry]

I don't think asking to remove things from a person's play is helpful though, I mean I guess I see what you're after just don't think it's very helpful.

Why?

Its worthwhile to see what is considered as equivilant or greater then lurking, the more you can force someone to give opinions on why X > Y >> Z the better chances you have of catching them trying to save partners later by switching stuff up.

[foilist13]

Hello everyone,

/confirm replacement.

I'll start reading the thread now and bust out with some content when I'm done.

unvote

[Furry]

Seven people are not voting. This should be fixed in 48 hours.

[Faraday]

I don't think asking to remove things from a person's play is helpful though, I mean I guess I see what you're after just don't think it's very helpful.

Why?

Its worthwhile to see what is considered as equivilant or greater then lurking, the more you can force someone to give opinions on why X > Y >> Z the better chances you have of catching them trying to save partners later by switching stuff up.

Because it just doesn't work like that. You can't just remove an aspect of someone's play, that's scummy, it's nearly impossible to then analyse the rest of their play. It's everything together, and in general I don't think there should be concrete opinions on scumtells, per se, it all depends on the context.

[foilist13]

Ok, I'm still on page 7, so this has probably already been addressed, but wicked looks ridiculous. I'm not sure what the purpose of his anti-rvs questioning was, but it certainly wasn't scumhunting.

[cruelty]

Faraday has future knowledge, therefore in Faraday I trust.

For the point - Cruelty, removing everything regarding lurking/fluff, what do you think of Haylen? 

Why are we removing these things when they're both scummy?

They are applicable to multiple people. Its worth noting where his vote would be if everyones activity level was the exact same, as these are more core (and reliable) tells. Also if he is putting Haylen-town ahead of scum players primarily due to this, then thats a whole 'nother tell on its own.

Haylen-town?

My vote is where it is, I'm not sure what you want from me? The second-most scummy player on my list? I aint gonna delve into that. I'm not ruling out the possibility that she's town, but I'm happy enough with my vote given 4 things.

1: The lack of content preceding my attack.
2: The lack of content following my attack.
3: The OMGUS vote that she claimed wasn't OMGUS (lol??).
4: Her reaction. Very, very defensive, bad excuses, etc etc.


I don't know why this is so hard for you to understand Furry - this isn't a case of my voting a lurker, this is a case of Haylen active lurking. Not only that, but there's been absolutely no attempt to rectify the situation. This would have made my vote go away - a couple of juicy posts with a bunch of thoughts would have been enough to compel me to move on to someone else, this never happened. I don't understand why, but I don't like it and thus the vote stays.

Also if he is putting Haylen-town ahead of scum players primarily due to this, then thats a whole 'nother tell on its own.

Huh?

I don't know why you're defending her, unless you're privy to some information I don't have. Thus far she's contributed nothing and this somehow isn't worth a vote? This isn't scummy? Are you serious?

the first several pages are messy full of jokes and non-sense.

Tend to agree with this. Tedious to read (although Wicked's walls are worse...) and filled with little to no relevant information. Don't really think revisiting the early game is going to illuminate anything. That doesn't mean you don't have to justify a vote, though.

Katniss's lack of position on everything, pretty much, is worrying, though some of her posts do give me a generally newb town read.

This I also agree on. I am not ruling her out as scum, but I think that her posts thus far seem like someone who is not confident with the game yet.


foilist we meet again...

[SolemnJ]

@wicked - What case of SJs? As far as I can tell its all misunderstanding/misrep over views on pressure votes.

Post 267 is the case I agreed with.

And that not an inconsistancy, which I addressed already too

I guess it was more convenient to attack Haylen.

lol... yeah im happy with my vote

Why does that comment make you more happy with your vote?

Taking a lynch of a lesser suspect because its easy when deadline is not forcing it to happen is a scumtell. He is more inclined to just get a lynch then to get what he views as an ideal lynch[/quote]

No, you're assuming things; that you are a greater suspect.

@Wicked:
My old attack WAS different.
I didnt post this attack because it was invalid and I think it may have been fallacitical. So I refrained from posting it.

I don't give up my furry case. I just need to wait for another scumtell.

***

@Faraday

I've never seen the effectiveness of the chainsaw defense scumtell in my few games of play.

[Rhinox]

cruelty:

I find you questionable WJ, I'd vote you but I'm uneasy about pushing a wagon this early. So you just get FoSed. Also your enormous posts with heaps of empty space are very irritating to scroll through for very little content. More conciseness please.

Why were you uneasy about pushing the WJ wagon so early? Do you believe an FOS has any utility at all?

Still would like an answer to this.

-----------------------------------------

Ok, I'm still on page 7, so this has probably already been addressed, but wicked looks ridiculous. I'm not sure what the purpose of his anti-rvs questioning was, but it certainly wasn't scumhunting.

Random questioning is a valid alternative to random voting.

See Mini 783 and this thread.

----------------------------------------

vote: Haylen

Answer my questions in this post...

and get on with the content filled post you promised here...

at least post the first half of it since you claim its already written in the post...

or die for lying.

[Haylen]

Im not defensive.
Clearly there needs to be OMGUS intent for it to be OMGUS. There wasn't. I had real reasons.

Bad excuses? I'm treating that with contempt.

I consider myself and easy lynch because my playstyle has flaws that I am still working on.
Easy lynch in this circumstance is completely different to the analogy with the guilty result, that was in the case of a confirmed role. I am not a confirmed role, but I am an easy lynch. Because I am me. Even with that analogy first, I think the town should continue talking through the day and then lynched the confirmed scum when the day ends.

I don't think you should leave an easy lynch alone, I think you should hear the player out before lynching them and take into account what they have to say.

And I am actually in the middle of 3 analysis posts right now. I had to restart this one because my computer restarted and I lost everything i was working on, including my coursework.

[Faraday]

Im not defensive.
Clearly there needs to be OMGUS intent for it to be OMGUS. There wasn't. I had real reasons.
[/Quotes]
You say that butttttttt, I find that hard to believe.

I consider myself and easy lynch because my playstyle has flaws that I am still working on.

So? How does a playstyle that's got flaws correlate to an easy lynch. I don't think you're an easy lynch at all, you're certaintly not a newbie, and you're not zwet or someone of that ilk, so the easy lynch argument is quite frankly absurd.

And I am actually in the middle of 3 analysis posts right now. I had to restart this one because my computer restarted and I lost everything i was working on, including my coursework.

Looking forward to it..

And @ Solemn, yeh I was just wondering, even Tar himself, who's the one who coined the term( I think) said it's not very effective without some flips.

[Rhinox]

FYI... the origin of the chainsaw defense.

crueknight: were you seriously asking about whether you should claim here?

[Furry]

I don't think asking to remove things from a person's play is helpful though, I mean I guess I see what you're after just don't think it's very helpful.

Why?

Its worthwhile to see what is considered as equivilant or greater then lurking, the more you can force someone to give opinions on why X > Y >> Z the better chances you have of catching them trying to save partners later by switching stuff up.

Because it just doesn't work like that. You can't just remove an aspect of someone's play, that's scummy, it's nearly impossible to then analyse the rest of their play. It's everything together, and in general I don't think there should be concrete opinions on scumtells, per se, it all depends on the context.

Im an engineer, I try and quanitiate things as much as possible due to it being how my brain functions. Every tell is not exactly the same as scenarios surrounding it cause it to weigh differently, but every tell does have a distinct weight, and seeing how much of the case comes from an exact tell is something I want to see.

For the point - Cruelty, removing everything regarding lurking/fluff, what do you think of Haylen? 

Why are we removing these things when they're both scummy?

They are applicable to multiple people. Its worth noting where his vote would be if everyones activity level was the exact same, as these are more core (and reliable) tells. Also if he is putting Haylen-town ahead of scum players primarily due to this, then thats a whole 'nother tell on its own.

Haylen-town?

My vote is where it is, I'm not sure what you want from me? The second-most scummy player on my list? I aint gonna delve into that. I'm not ruling out the possibility that she's town, but I'm happy enough with my vote given 4 things.

1: The lack of content preceding my attack.
2: The lack of content following my attack.
3: The OMGUS vote that she claimed wasn't OMGUS (lol??).
4: Her reaction. Very, very defensive, bad excuses, etc etc.


I don't know why this is so hard for you to understand Furry - this isn't a case of my voting a lurker, this is a case of Haylen active lurking. Not only that, but there's been absolutely no attempt to rectify the situation. This would have made my vote go away - a couple of juicy posts with a bunch of thoughts would have been enough to compel me to move on to someone else, this never happened. I don't understand why, but I don't like it and thus the vote stays.

Ok see now I get it a bit. 1 and 4 I dont see as tells at all, in fact I would be happy policy lynching anyone who uses "overdefensive" as a tell, worst tell ever. 2 I can see, but I think people acting scummy > not contributing, also I dont think the case is as OMGUS as you think it is. Everyone thinks something against them is more unfounded/OMGUSy then it is.

Lets try this though, why Haylen over other non-contributors?

Also if he is putting Haylen-town ahead of scum players primarily due to this, then thats a whole 'nother tell on its own.

Huh?

I don't know why you're defending her, unless you're privy to some information I don't have. Thus far she's contributed nothing and this somehow isn't worth a vote? This isn't scummy? Are you serious?

I defend people I dont want lynched, wait untill someone puts pressure on someone I think is town if you think this is defending. There are other noncontributors, including some which I know can be active, so just going for one is something im not comfortable with. Also I prefer legit scummy over lurker scummy untill the lurker does something scummy.

People not voting, vote now. Seriously

[cruelty]

cruelty:

I find you questionable WJ, I'd vote you but I'm uneasy about pushing a wagon this early. So you just get FoSed. Also your enormous posts with heaps of empty space are very irritating to scroll through for very little content. More conciseness please.

Why were you uneasy about pushing the WJ wagon so early? Do you believe an FOS has any utility at all?

Still would like an answer to this.

Sorry, didn't see it.

1: I don't like the very early game. I think it's easy to misread the active players as scummy (often there's an early game town vs town battle) so I'm hesitant about voting for outspoken players early on. I saw in Wicked a fairly controversial style of play and the potential for an early wagon, didn't want to push this.

2: FoS... I have mixed thoughts. Mid-game, I don't put much stock in it, end-game I think it can be used to point suspicion at scum pairings (eg: vote: X and FoS: Y) although I think you have to be careful with that. Early game is the only place I'm really comfortable using it, I tend to think of it as a non-aggressive note to a player that they should tread lightly.

Ok see now I get it a bit. 1 and 4 I dont see as tells at all, in fact I would be happy policy lynching anyone who uses "overdefensive" as a tell, worst tell ever. 2 I can see, but I think people acting scummy > not contributing, also I dont think the case is as OMGUS as you think it is. Everyone thinks something against them is more unfounded/OMGUSy then it is.

Eh, I'll just agree to disagree with you re: being defensive.

The OMGUS,

I was fucking defending myself. That's the whole point of the damn game.

vote cruelty

Strawmanning and misrep.

Then:

PS Haylen doesnt do OMGUS.

Yeah I guess you're right, there's no OMGUS there.

[Furry]

Overdefensive is a crap tell mainly due to it being subjective. You may think (and do) something is overdefensive that I dont, or others dont. Due to it being subjective, really anything can be called overdefensive if you try to make it. Plus you always defend yourself, either outright or subtely, in games. I see it as something that is used to bolster a weak case by attempting to add more to it.

What exactly makes something overdefensive as opposed to defending oneself then? I see absolutely no difference in this.

[Scott Brosius]

I think overdefensive is a decent tell only if compared to one's meta. In a bubble, you are correct, anything can be considered "overdefensive". But if a person is more defensive than usual, I think that can be worth something.