Mini 857 Disney Movie Mafia 2 - The Classics (Roll Credits)

[LlamaFluff]

Vote Count

curiouskarmadog(2) - Gorrad, semioldguy
Gorrad (1) - StrangerCoug
StrangerCoug (1) - Crazy
Kublai Khan (1) - Starbuck

Not Voting (3) - Kublai Khan, Jazzmyn, curiouskarmadog

Condolences to Starbuck, V/LA is noted

Deadline is temporarily suspended due to lack of replacement for YankCane151. Any help finding one would be appreciated. Deadline will be reinstated to 5-7 days after a replacement is found

[LlamaFluff]

curiouskarmadog replaces YankCane151

Deadline is November 25th, 9PM PST

[StrangerCoug]

#1024 is waiting for you, Jazzmyn.

[Kublai Khan]

Up to page 30. Sorry this is taking so long. By Sunday at the latest I'll have a big post ready to go.

[curiouskarmadog]

sweet christ...40 pages....hmmmm, dont know when I can get to it...

this is what I would like from everyone...

if you are voting, a quick line or two why you are voting who you are voting...feel free to link me or repost your case.

if you are not voting, a quick line why you are not voting.

if you dont want to do this, explain why you dont and why you think that it is a protown move.

[Starbuck]

I'm voting for Brandi (now Kublai Khan) and I have a full case 2 pages back.

[Crazy]

if you are voting, a quick line or two why you are voting who you are voting...feel free to link me or repost your case.

I am voting for SC because he changed his vote from Neopi (scum) to chamber (on a horrible reason, too) to Monkey (town, which was a critical vote to get him lynched).

I realize this is not something that he can defend easily.

[StrangerCoug]

sweet christ...40 pages....hmmmm, dont know when I can get to it...

this is what I would like from everyone...

if you are voting, a quick line or two why you are voting who you are voting...feel free to link me or repost your case.

if you are not voting, a quick line why you are not voting.

if you dont want to do this, explain why you dont and why you think that it is a protown move.

Voilà. This is important too.

[Gorrad]

I've been on a Monkey Island binge, so this read is taking longer than anticipated.

[semioldguy]

@curiouskarmadog
My vote was mostly a pressure vote on YankCane151 (now you) and it will remain there until you do something (since he didn't do much) or someone else does something I find scummy and deserving of a vote.

[curiouskarmadog]

going to try to get to this read tonight or tomorrow....40 pages are going to be skim-ish

semi, so obviously your pressure vote is void, because Yank had to be replaced...yet you will keep the "pressure" vote on? In a game with 40 pages in it, you dont find anything scummier, than someone who had to be replaced? Interesting.

[semioldguy]

I think YankCane was scummy. I also think Brandi was scummy. They both replaced out after me voicing suspicions on them. Moving my vote to my second top suspect in this case is not any more effective than keeping it here at the moment.

[StrangerCoug]

Do you suspect anybody else, semioldguy?

[curiouskarmadog]

Ok, keeping this running note as I read…
Not sure what “erased” means yet. Going into the read I know that Neopi is a GF. Well god damn, they are not in the players list…who did they replace in for? Fuzzy I think?
First couple of pages is RVS getting shit started..yawn.

Wow, this is so stupid. Monkey has to be scum. Not on the emotional appeals, but refusing to play the game means either scum or horrible town. And I think Monkey is too experienced of a player to do this as town.

this statement is silly? doesnt scum try to be as towny looking as possible? That being said, Monkey’s play is childish…(but it looks like he was indeed town)

chamber is attacking fuzzy, brandi is attacking chamber and defending fuzzy…(we know chamber is town, killed at night?)

Really like chamber’s 186 post.

203, jazz has not done anything in the game, opens with a case on chamber.

Page 13, MM claims….I assume the wagon shall pass.

327, SC votes chamber

331, Fuzzy votes chamber

333, Star votes chamber

353, mod’s vote count, just want the reference on top two wagons.
Starbuck (4) - MonkeyMan576, YankCane151, Crazy, Gorrad
chamber (4) - Jazzmyn, StrangerCoug, fuzzylightning, Starbuck

354, Star claims?

361, chamber votes Star

373, crazy comes of Star’s wagon, reasons based on flavor…blah

375, WTF?!?

Between Starbuck's fakeclaim and me recently seeing Toy Story & Toy Story 2 in 3D, I can't get this scene out of my head:

389, SC unvote chamber, votes Star

WHY IS THERE NO CRAZY WAGON AT THIS POINT?

410, star self votes, not a hammer though, interesting.
413, chamber unvotes star

418, jazz pushes stars wagon with a lynch…Jazz is all types of scummy

439, agree with semi’s scum list (fuzzy, SC, and Jazz). So why does he keep his vote on MM?

448, Neopi, enters game and vote Star…..(this puts Star in my town category)

---wagon develops on Neopi…Star, Semi, chamber

It appears that Neopi is super new…nice..

488,

Ugh, I'd swear SC and Starbuck were scum together if I didn't know better.

(And I never FoSed Gorrad, btw.)

you know better, how?

490, there is nothing I like about Jazz’s post

Wow Star and MM are back and forth for pages.

561, KMD killed? I don’t understand this kill from any perspective. Since the GF was erased Day 2…it has to be a vig or SK…more thoughts on this later.

Too much conversation about flavor and role names.

669, something about the timing of the this question to Neopi sounds town to me…I like his prodding in later posts

732, Jazz is still defending Neopi.

760, neopi claims watcher tracker

875,

Starbuck (3) - Jazzmyn, YankCane151, MonkeyMan576
Neopi (3) - chamber, Starbuck, Crazy
MonkeyMan576 (3) - semioldguy, Neopi, Gorrad

28 hours till deadline.

885, SC votes MM (surprised at the lack of Neopi vote…)

889, MM town lynched.

890, chamber town shot (during the night)

The next day (today) starts.
------------

Interesting, I know that Neopi is “erased” and flipped GF….so I have that in my favor going into this read.

That being said, here is my list before the start of today.

Scum:

Jazz, this guy has been super scummy all of Day one. His votes and post are pragmatic and his defense of the Mafia GF is horrid.

KK (brandi), lurker, what little she did do I think was scummy

Neutral:

Star, I think his back and forth MM, was two townie bumping heads…I would have put him in the town category, but his “hammer” looks bad. I have done the same maneuver as scum…”accidentally misreading the vote count”.

Gorrad, nothing from him really on Day 1….posting just enough to be overlooked as a lurker.

SC, would have put him in the town category, but his vote ended MM, and I am shocked that he didn’t vote neopi after neo antics….interested to see if anyone asks him about this Day 2.

Semi, going into this read I wanted to find that he was scum….(just from what I read on the current page)…not the case…he did things that were slightly scummish and townish.

Town:[/b]
Crazy, I was back and forth on Crazy during the Day 1 read, the fake claim post almost blew my fucking mind....if I felt that Star was scum, crazy would be there as well, if Star or crazy do flip scum at one point, I will be revisiting this....crazy's play at the end of Day 1 looks town to me.

These will be more finite once I finish the read…will hit tomorrow.

[Starbuck]

@curiouskarmadog - Jazzmyn and myself are both females.

[Jazzmyn]

@Starbuck: I'm very sorry to read of your loss, and wish you and your family all the best.

@Everyone else: I will be fully caught up tonight and will post my thoughts, comments, answers to questions, and suspicions then.

Regards,
Jazz

[curiouskarmadog]

meh, trying to read 40 pages of a game...details like gender are lost...I assume you got something else out of my day 1 read through other than I fucked up genders.

[Kublai Khan]

Okay, I'm all read up. Big post coming later tonight.

[Crazy]

373, crazy comes of Star’s wagon, reasons based on flavor…blah

Yes, flavor. I used flavor arguments in the first Disney Movie Mafia Game as town, so I know it can't count as a scum-tell.

And it's hard for me to imagine Starbuck claiming Buzz - Vanilla Townie as scum.

375, WTF?!?

Normal reaction.

WHY IS THERE NO CRAZY WAGON AT THIS POINT?

Because a wagon on myself would be based on the fact that I knew Starbuck was fakeclaiming. Which means wagoning me isn't any better than wagoning Starbuck (which is what did happen.)

you know better, how?

I know better because of me thinking Starbuck is obvtown because of his claim, and such.

SC, would have put him in the town category, but his vote ended MM, and I am shocked that he didn’t vote neopi after neo antics….interested to see if anyone asks him about this Day 2.

That's why I'm voting him.

[Crazy]

Jazz, this guy has been super scummy all of Day one. His votes and post are pragmatic and his defense of the Mafia GF is horrid.

What's wrong with pragmatic posting? Are you sure "pragmatic" is the word you mean?

Looking through his posts, I never saw him defend Neopi. I noticed he was on the fence to the Neopi wagon, which is scummy, though.

[curiouskarmadog]

I counted 3 different posts that he was defending him (or condemning his wagon)...

[Jazzmyn]

@ Kubla Khan and curiouskarmadog: welcome and thanks for subbing in. It is good to have a full complement of players.

@ Everyone: following is my current train of thought with my catch up on the thread.

As I've said previously, I am most suspicious of Starbuck and have been since Day 1. Here's the short version:

Starbuck voted Monkey with her very first post for a spurious reason. It looked like a random vote at first, which would have been entirely okay, and completely acceptable, but Starbuck dug her heels in and never did admit that it was random and insisted that it was legit somehow even though it clearly was not. Thus began a relentless campaign of Starbuck v. Monkey, which never really ended until Monkey's lynch at the deadline. Even though Starbuck got off of the Monkey wagon when he claimed his power role, she got back on it later, and then jumped off again before he was lynched, but she continued to go after him - relentlessly - without ever letting up, even while she purported to believe his claim. It just doesn't add up.

Also, as previously mentioned, Starbuck attempted to self-hammer despite her vanilla townie claim shortly after saying that she would only do so if she was scum. As it turns out, she was wrong about the number of votes required for a lynch, but the fact remains that by her own admission, she thought that she was self-hammering, which she says she would only do as scum. (And in my view, she's right, only scum would do that). After her self-hammer attempt was unsuccessful, backtracking ensued.

Starbuck also seems to have a habit of throwing votes or FoSes at anyone and everyone who calls anything she says or does into question. This might be more of a null tell than a scum tell, but it's worth looking at, I think, because it seems somewhat frantic on Starbuck's behalf and I don't think anyone but scum would be so frantic. (Long list of individual posts omitted here)

Then she started Day 2 saying that she didn't understand why others were on the Monkey wagon that she herself had started and that she has encouraged right up to the end even when she wasn't on the wagon herself. It strikes me as very scummy for a player to encourage a bandwagon right up to lynching, even though that player is not even on the very wagon that she's encouraging, and then purport the next day to cast suspicion at those who were on the wagon that she encouraged but had personally leapt from. In other words, on Day 2, Starbuck was accusing those on Monkey's wagon of being scummy even though it was she who started the Monkey wagon on Day 1 and she who continued to encourage the Monkey wagon right up until Monkey was lynched, even though Starbuck had removed herself from the wagon shortly before his demise.

Bottom line: Starbuck never stopped poking at Monkey. Quite literally until her very last posts of Day 1, even though she purported to believe his town power role claim, and even though she jumped off, back on, and back off his wagon, she was still gunning for him up until the very end of Day 1.

And then, what did she do at the opening of Day 2? She acted as though nobody should have been on the Monkey wagon that she started, fed constantly, nurtured for 30 pages, and then distanced herself from at the end of Day 1.

I really don't understand why there were still people on Monkey's train at the end of yesterday. I know I threw out the theory of him possibly being the Tramp, but his flavor definitely mirrored his role, no matter how scummy I found him to be acting.

What bothers me are those that didn't switch off of Monkey to Neopi with the fact that his claim made sense.

This just doesn't strike me as credible at all.

More to follow.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

It got to the point where the active players were in the minority in my mindset and I wanted to gauge if anybody was suspicious for their activity level. I don't like Gorrad right now and he was among those inactive.

Fair enough, I suppose. But I don't think that Gorrad is scum and, as I said previously, scum is just as often found among the most active players as among the least active players so I'm not convinced that this was a valid reason for you to sow suspicion

solely

upon the less active players while ignoring the more active players, who are just as likely to be scum.

Where did I discount the possibility that there are scum in the active players?

I never said that you discounted the possibility that there is scum among the active players, StrangerCougar. Strawman argument duly noted, though.

My question was why were you sowing suspicion

solely

upon the less active players even though scum is just as likely to be found among the most active players?

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

And it's hard for me to imagine Starbuck claiming Buzz - Vanilla Townie as scum.

Safe claim provided by LlamaFluff, the GM, perhaps?

(Just thinking out loud).

Regards,
Jazz

[Starbuck]

Starbuck voted Monkey with her very first post for a spurious reason. It looked like a random vote at first, which would have been entirely okay, and completely acceptable, but Starbuck dug her heels in and never did admit that it was random and insisted that it was legit somehow even though it clearly was not.

I never admitted that it was random because it wasn't random. I voted to get us out of RVS by starting discussion, pressure and for reaction, which I definitely said and also makes your accusation that my vote was spurious null and void.

Monkey gave a pretty damn scummy reaction all of Day 1, if I do say so myself, but when he claimed and then claimed his flavor. It didn't sound like something that he could just make up on his own, although the fact that he took so long to claim his flavor is quite questionable.

Thus began a relentless campaign of Starbuck v. Monkey, which never really ended until Monkey's lynch at the deadline. Even though Starbuck got off of the Monkey wagon when he claimed his power role, she got back on it later, and then jumped off again before he was lynched, but she continued to go after him - relentlessly - without ever letting up, even while she purported to believe his claim. It just doesn't add up.

You realize that you left out one vital piece of information here? I jumped back on Monkey because he was refusing to claim his flavor. I didn't just jump back on for the sake of jumping on. Way to leave out details in order to make yourself look better.

You say I went after him relentlessly without every letting up. Care to show some evidence of this?

Also, as previously mentioned, Starbuck attempted to self-hammer despite her vanilla townie claim shortly after saying that she would only do so if she was scum. As it turns out, she was wrong about the number of votes required for a lynch, but the fact remains that by her own admission, she thought that she was self-hammering, which she says she would only do as scum. (And in my view, she's right, only scum would do that). After her self-hammer attempt was unsuccessful, backtracking ensued.

I was quite frustrated at that time in the game, and seriously losing my Vanilla Townie self wouldn't have done our town PRs any harm.

My death would have given us information, just as Monkey's death has given us information. Everyone was pushing for information at the time and if my lynch were to give some information to the town, then I've done my job as a VT.

Starbuck also seems to have a habit of throwing votes or FoSes at anyone and everyone who calls anything she says or does into question. This might be more of a null tell than a scum tell, but it's worth looking at, I think, because it seems somewhat frantic on Starbuck's behalf and I don't think anyone but scum would be so frantic. (Long list of individual posts omitted here)

So you can say this, but won't provide the evidence.

Since you are too lazy to do so, I'll give you a history of my votes & FOS's in chronological order

RVS on Brandi
Pressure/Reaction/Attempt to Provoke Discussion Vote on Monkey
FOS on Chamber for his weak vote on Crazy
Vote on Chamber for his whiteknighting of Monkey
Frustration Vote of Myself
Vote on Jazzmyn for barely posting and only posting when it's convienient for her
Vote on Neopi for not coming up with his own case and piggybacking
Putting my Vote back on Neopi after KMD was erased
Vote on Monkey for not claiming his flavor
Unvote Monkey for his flavor making sense with his claim
Vote on Neopi, Lynch All Lurkers
Vote Brandi, after my long case post on her


So while I vote change a lot this game (which is abnormal for me), I have only one FOS. So where out of those was I throwing them at "anyone and everyone who calls anything I say or do into question"? I voted each time for a reason.

You want to call me out on something, but you can't even provide the evidence.

Then she started Day 2 saying that she didn't understand why others were on the Monkey wagon that she herself had started and that she has encouraged right up to the end even when she wasn't on the wagon herself. It strikes me as very scummy for a player to encourage a bandwagon right up to lynching, even though that player is not even on the very wagon that she's encouraging, and then purport the next day to cast suspicion at those who were on the wagon that she encouraged but had personally leapt from. In other words, on Day 2, Starbuck was accusing those on Monkey's wagon of being scummy even though it was she who started the Monkey wagon on Day 1 and she who continued to encourage the Monkey wagon right up until Monkey was lynched, even though Starbuck had removed herself from the wagon shortly before his demise.

Bottom line: Starbuck never stopped poking at Monkey. Quite literally until her very last posts of Day 1, even though she purported to believe his town power role claim, and even though she jumped off, back on, and back off his wagon, she was still gunning for him up until the very end of Day 1.

And then, what did she do at the opening of Day 2? She acted as though nobody should have been on the Monkey wagon that she started, fed constantly, nurtured for 30 pages, and then distanced herself from at the end of Day 1.

I really don't understand why there were still people on Monkey's train at the end of yesterday. I know I threw out the theory of him possibly being the Tramp, but his flavor definitely mirrored his role, no matter how scummy I found him to be acting.

What bothers me are those that didn't switch off of Monkey to Neopi with the fact that his claim made sense.

This just doesn't strike me as credible at all.

Wow, what a twist of my words.

I stated why I didn't understand and you even quoted me here on it. So how is the fact that I found Monkey's claim and flavor credible make me look scummy? Yes, I did push for his lynch, but I didn't push for it after he claimed the flavor. I threw out a theory, but I was pushing for Neopi at the end of Day 1.

Also, I ask again for evidence of my encouragement of the Monkey lynch "throughout all of Day 1" as you accuse me of.