Mini 876 - Tree Stump II [Day None] (Abandoned)

[The Fonz]

I'm pretty much done with that, and am concentrating on pressuring lurkers. Quag isn't here. Not sure about Shanba, but i don't think that's going to be a productive attitude.

[Sudo_Nym]

@Sud0: Do you have any unironic opinions?

Not really; a lot of people have been away for too long, the people I thought would be here (Shanba, Quagmire) haven't been, and it's making it hard to actually determine anything useful.

[Tjoe Min Ja]

*waiting*

[Sanjay]

saberwolf must be pretty pissed that despite all the effort he is putting into being the most anti-town player, half the town is outdoing him.

[Sudo_Nym]

saberwolf must be pretty pissed that despite all the effort he is putting into being the most anti-town player, half the town is outdoing him.

Personally, I could easily be persuaded to lynch saberwolf now, just to be rid of his anti-townieness.

[Empking]

Let's lynch SW.

[The Fonz]

saberwolf must be pretty pissed that despite all the effort he is putting into being the most anti-town player, half the town is outdoing him.

Personally, I could easily be persuaded to lynch saberwolf now, just to be rid of his anti-townieness.

Given the way the game is going, who do you expect to persuade you?

I am far from convinced that saying provocative-sounding things and asking people to discuss them is actually antitown/scummy.

@ Everyone- if SW is town, what is his motive here? If he is scum?

[scotmany12]

Unvote, Vote: Sudo_Nym

I see no protown motive for him wanting to lynch saberwolf. Given that he hasn't even said he thinks he is scum.

[Sudo_Nym]

@ Everyone- if SW is town, what is his motive here? If he is scum?

I don't think he has a motive, per se, just being a jackass. I don't think an honest determination of his alignment to be made here, except insofar as, if he's town, why wouldn't he even try? But then, there's an argument like that for a lot of people in the game right now.

I see no protown motive for him wanting to lynch saberwolf. Given that he hasn't even said he thinks he is scum.

Interesting that you would choose me to single out, given that my vote isn't on saberwolf. Trying to start a pile on me?

[saberwolf]

*notes that twice he has made himself a target, and twice now people have tried to BW him, and twice people have attacked those who vote for him...*



why?

[quote=sanjay]saberwolf must be pretty pissed that despite all the effort he is putting into being the most anti-town player, half the town is outdoing him.[/quote]

LOL

I wouldn't say pissed, but rather amused. I'm back at uni tomorrow, so if it pleases you I'll give this game some effort then and maybe post some content of my own.

[quote=Sudo_Nymph]Interesting that you would choose me to single out, given that my vote isn't on saberwolf. Trying to start a pile on me? [/quote]

meh, not the first time this has happened during the game. It's the same 3-4 people attacking and defending every point possible. Seriously, it's as if you guys have already decided you're going to play as opposing forces, and whenever one of you attacks a point made by someone else, the other side feels compelled to defend.

I'll get back to this later....I'll have to do a reread too.

[saberwolf]

ok, so quick reread, and here are some of my thoughts:

empking seems to be playing like his usual self, ergo towntell to me.
I have faith in fonz and shanba as town. Quag and sydo_nym would be just below them two, but theres something about them both that has me thinking something just isn't right. I don't think CM/scot is a lumberjack, for the reason that I see no reason for CM as scum to replace out, especially as the momentum was shifting off of him and forming onto somebody else. Cybele I was suspicious could be scum, but I have noticed that he hasn't just magically reappeared in order to please the town, in hopes of not getting lynched. For that reason, I'm not as inclined to think him as scum. The biggest person for me would be TMJ. THJ has not offered anything of value, and is one of three people that have been doing opportunistic BWing [TMJ, empking, sudo_nym]. However, out of the three, I just feel that TMJ is most likely, as sudo at least contributes in a pro-town manner [even if the way he words his posts give me a weird feeling, he is still keeping the ball rolling], and empking BWing and vote hopping with no reasons is normal for him. CM/scot would make a good BW for informational purposes, but in terms of who I think may be a lumberjack, it'd be TMJ.

*sigh*

are the inactivity going to be replaced or what?

If I am right about this, I would also take this post and interpret it as one of TMJ's scumbuddies is one of the inactives, and would like a new partner to help out in the game. I don't want to get too far ahead of myself though, and for now I'll just vote for TMJ.

unvote; vote: TMJ

[scotmany12]

I see no protown motive for him wanting to lynch saberwolf. Given that he hasn't even said he thinks he is scum.

Interesting that you would choose me to single out, given that my vote isn't on saberwolf. Trying to start a pile on me?

I didn't see your unvote and vote onto cybele. Still doesn't change my point. You are willing to lynch someone who you haven't even said you thought was scum. You said you would be willing to lynch saberwolf just to get rid of his antitown attitude. We should be looking to lynch scum. You aren't. That is why I'm voting for you.

[saberwolf]

quag prolly

...

Moving on,

vote: saberwolf

nope, but then again, I've been patiently waiting for this to wrap up so we can move on in the game, so I haven't been following in great detail.

I see no incentive for you to do this as town. None at all. I don't see why you would want to attribute something to the discussion, unless you were being extra careful and didn't want to slip up anywhere, which of course you would only do if you were scum.

Unvote, Vote: Sudo_Nym

I see no protown motive for him wanting to lynch saberwolf. Given that he hasn't even said he thinks he is scum.

I didn't see your unvote and vote onto cybele. Still doesn't change my point. You are willing to lynch someone who you haven't even said you thought was scum. You said you would be willing to lynch saberwolf just to get rid of his antitown attitude. We should be looking to lynch scum. You aren't. That is why I'm voting for you.

These posts when looked at together confuse me. You don't seem to have a problem attacking me for my "anti-town behaviour", yet when someone else decides to vote for me for the very same reason, you attack them for it...can you explain this?

[scotmany12]

There is a difference between thinking someone is scum for lying about their activity and avoidance of the thread (which I no longer believe because I don't see anyone brining up personal issues as an excuse unless it was a viable excuse) and someone who wants to rid someone without even regarding if they are scum or not.

[saberwolf]

There is a difference between thinking someone is scum for lying about their activity and avoidance of the thread (which I no longer believe because I don't see anyone brining up personal issues as an excuse unless it was a viable excuse) and someone who wants to rid someone without even regarding if they are scum or not.

what if I argued the point that by "lynching" me, he has been pro-town in the sense that he removed a possible liability from a lylo scenario?

However, I have to say the reason he voted for me is stupid, simply for the reason that if you all agreed to try and lynch me because of anti-town behaviour, I'd simply stump myself, and continue on with my anti-town behaviour, thus not really solving anything.

Now, I'm not trying to threaten you into not voting for me, in fact I'd encourage it, as it'd probably keep me active in the game, but I'm just showing how the reason behind Sudo_Nym's vote [or any other similar vote for that matter] is pointless from my POV.

But then again, you could then argue, "Well the only reason we try to lynch people is because they act anti-town." Yes and no. Sometimes they act anti-town to the point of scummy, or they slip up and say something they shouldn't, then in that case it's a no and we lynch them with purpose of reason. If we attack them because they are anti-town, then yes they could use the same excuse I used, and we would get nowhere. Once again, this is from my POV, and will be universal to everyone, from their own persprective POVS.

Then you could start thinking, "Why is he typing all of this? Only scum would need to cover their tracks and protect their ass." This is true. However, I am also just trailing off on a wall of thoughts because I have nothing else to do right now, and no other games are active.

But, I digress, back to my main thoughts.

At this point of the game, which isn't very far, we are coming up with as many reasons to vote anybody other than ourselves as we can, and weighing each accusation against all the others in order to see which ones seem more credible than others. Some will choose to follow these accusations in the form of bandwagons, while others will not. Others may choose to go in a completely opposite direction and try something different, in hopes that under a new viewpoint, they may see something that others may have missed while following the main route of scumhunting.

So, I ask you,

How are we to determine who are first lynch is to be?

let me show you some of our solutions thus far:

1. Lynch the ones who argue against us

We seem to think that anybody who has conflicting views to us has to be scum, when the truth is many people always have conflicting views on subjects and will agree to disagree. Just because someone oppose's your ideas and theories, it doesn't have to turn into a battle of posts where the loser becomes the next lynch target. [I'm a hypocrite for this I know, as I voted for quagmire using the debate as an excuse, but it was really more of a placeholder....but wait! That means I lied didn't I? Ah well. I like to think of it as more of a half truth, as I did think he wasn't doing as well supporting his views as the others, but I wasn't going to follow through with the lynch based on simply that, but would of been interested had anyone followed me with it.] However, we can go against those whose arguments are weak in terms of logic or have conflicting sentences later on. Once again though, our main problem is that everyone always seems to be dogmatic, that they think that they are always right, and that anyone who opposes them is wrong and therefore has weak logic. Solution: By opening our eyes and trying to understand the other player's POV, as well as the motivations behind the POV, may we actually get somewhere with our discussion. Looking to see how many people get involved in a discussion is a key indicator usually of who's town and who's scum. For example, if it had just been quagmire and shanba arguing by themselves and everyone else just kinda hung back and watched, I'd be more likely to place them both as town. In what I have seen though, it was at first a debate between 2 people, which became three, and then 5, with 2-3 people on the side in the peanut gallery. Looking at this, I'm inclined to think that one of the main arguers and one of the peanut gallery is scum. For the arguers, I'd tend to pick somebody who is more of an agreer than a main debater. [I gotta go back and read all those posts again to remember who they are...*sigh*] As for the peanut gallery, it could be anyone, including me. I, however, think that it is TMJ, but we shall see.

2. Lynch all lurkers

We have seen a couple of examples where some players have decided to place their votes on those who have not been contibuting as much as the others to the game. They either do not post at all, or they post little amounts of content that is basically fluff and does not help move the game forward at all. This can be deemed pro-town in the sense that, by lynching a lurker, we will get rid of a potential liability in the case of a lylo situation. However, I'd have to put this as anti-town more than pro-town, for the reason that by voting for a lurker, you are much more likely to lynch him than you are stump him, thus giving the scum an extra kill. To rectify this, it would be better to either simply ask for a prod instad of BWing, or put to L-2 and then ask for replacement. This way we would achieve a more communicable result.

3. Lynch those who appear anti-town

This one is similar to number two, but yields better results. Unlike number two, you don't have to worry about an accidental lynch, and even if you are wrong, at least you have an active stump to help you out. Getting rid of these players is good for the reason of lylo scenarios, as you rather not have these people around, as you may choose to vote them over the actual scum. The main problem seen with this option however, is it tends to lead back to number one, as people argue whether or not anti-town=scummy. The greatest part of this though, is sides and buddying up tend to happen more often here than anywhere.

So yeah, there are others as well, but they have not been as greatly pursued, or have been used too early in the game. We have not made much significant progress IMO, and I do not see us seeing our first stump anytime soon. However, there is nothing really wrong with that either. Discussion is a powerful tool, and it is in our best interests to utilize it the best we can...it's just when we misuse it or get off-topic that things get messy and stagnant. [Once again, I'm a hypocrite] I'm fine with taking our time, but I just feel that the arguments were looking at the wrong areas, that the wrong people are being targeted, and that the wrong reasons are given for those targets.

For now, I will say that I am pondering over the possibility of a TMJ scum, simply because I refuse to vote for a lurker as of right now [although circumstances may force me to change my views later...I'm flexible, but I just want to try to avoid LAL if I can if I feel it's in our best interests as town], and I don't really want to lynch someone because their argument was inferior [unless it was due to bad anti-town logic], and I just want to see where this goes. In my personal opinion, once again I will say that scot would probably be the best lynch, but only because it would lead to a great deal of information. I don't feel that he is scum though, I think he's town. If you want to know why I think he's town, it's because CM originally voted for me because I use gambits a lot, ergo he must not like gambits. For that reason I cannot see him as scum using the lumberjack quote from monty python as a WIFOM move. Also, scot's posts as a replacement seem more townish [maybe because he hasn't been as hit with pressure from the others as CM]. His answer to my latest question proved satisfactory for me, although I plan to chase him later about other things possibly. Finally, i also couldn't see scum whose heat was dying down replacing out out of desperation.

This is the end of my post

[The Fonz]

SW, I completely disagree with your read on TMH. He seems earnest, and trying to do the best he can for the town. Empking just looks to be posting just enough to not get prodded, and jumping on wagons with fairly shoddy backing. I haven't seen any particular reason to think him town yet.

My feeling on shanba/Quag is that both Quag's vote, and the Shanba vote that provoked it, are defensible town actions. In other words, I can see why people could interpret pressuring for the sake of pressuring as either pro or antitown, depending on the way they look at mafia.

Your take on Lynch All Lurkers is flawed, since lynch all lurkers doesn't mean lynch those who've flaked. The point is that skating by, posting just enough to avoid prod, is antitown/scummy (it objectively doesn't help the town, and even you don't agree with me on antitown = scummy, empirically scum lurk more). We're not more likely to lynch than stump unless he has

completely disappeared.

I also think that there's likely at least one scum in the three long-gones. Sudo would be my best guess for middle-running scum.

[Tjoe Min Ja]

@SW : you are wrong. unless mod start looking for a replacement, I'm out from here.

[SensFan]

Kairyuu replaces Cobalt.

Still looking for Jester.

[Kairyuu]

Hi guys. Busy now, reading and posts later.

[Quagmire]

Hey I'm back

[Quagmire]

Too lazy to read Saberwolf's megapost, but a good post is coming tomorrow.

[Tjoe Min Ja]

lol, Quaq

@Kariyuu, who is scummy?

[Quagmire]

proof, Fonz:

No, THAT's bullshit. Things that are antitown, by definition, hurt the town's chances of winning the game. If town people do scum-favouring things, scum players will be able to get away with advancing their win condition more blatantly. The only way you can stop people doing antitown things is to threaten them with lynch if they don't stop doing them.

Your analogy is bollocks, because throwing a fastball on a 2-2 count is a valid strategy for getting the batter out. It might not be the best choice, but the pitcher is still trying to get the hitter out and not give him the base. Town players acting antitown is the equivalent of intentionally walking the pitcher with the bases loaded.

Again, that is no evidence that I am somehow treating mafia as a mathematical formula. Scum want to stop town winning; town want to help that end. Therefore, anyone doing something that makes a scum win more likely, and a town win less (ie, antitown) is more likely to be acting from a scum motive than a town motive, and is hence more likely scum than someone who hadn't taken the antitown action.

How is that not a formulaic way to play again?

[Quagmire]

saberwolf must be pretty pissed that despite all the effort he is putting into being the most anti-town player, half the town is outdoing him.

Personally, I could easily be persuaded to lynch saberwolf now, just to be rid of his anti-townieness.

If I weren't convinced of how stupid of a player you are I'd be down for lynching you today.

[Quagmire]

OK, like I said... I'm too lazy to read saberwolf's big post. Maybe later.

With that said, he's all but guaranteed town.