Mini 878: Nouns Mafia - Da game is ovah!

[Iecerint]

I've never been scum on this site, and I always try to be hyper-conscious of how I represent myself. Maybe I'd try even harder as scum, but I've never seen the truth in the "trying too hard = scum" angle.

Waiting for Percy's promised post and one from Parhelic's replacement.

Vote Count 12

Boxman:

5 (Konowa, Netopalis, mathcam, elvis_knits, Seol)

Netopalis:

4 (StrangerCoug, SensFan, Iecerint, Boxman)

Not Voting:

(big_kahunia, MacavityLock, Percy)

Deadline:

Friday November 27th, 12:00 PM EST

Everyone

is now back from LA.

I'm going to give

Boxman

until

noon

on

Saturday

to pick up/respond to his

prod

before I replace him.

[MacavityLock]

Hey-o! I'm around and will get back to reading.

[SensFan]

I've never been scum on this site, and I always try to be hyper-conscious of how I represent myself.

In all honesty, don't. If you try to look Town, it will come off as fake, because you are (in a sense) faking it.

If people think you're genuinely hunting Scum, they'll look elsewhere, because it means you're Town. Focus on that.

Town priorities, in order:
*Lynch Scum
*Don't get lynched

Scum priorities:
*Don't get lynched
*The rest

[mathcam]

[Neto] show that he was paying way more attention to Boxman than I'd expect.

Excellent point. His comment about Box's sig struck me as surprisingly attentive, but I hadn't equated it to scumminess.

Am I the only person reading this as Net going with the flow?

I'm inclined to think that you would take anything Neto said and find it scummy. Not that you don't have any valid points, but I think it's unlikely that

everything

Neto says is scummy, even if he is. Once I find myself thinking that way about someone's posts, I usually think it's time to start being conscious of my own confirmation bias.

Cam

[mathcam]

In all honesty, don't. If you try to look Town, it will come off as fake, because you are (in a sense) faking it.

Oh, and this.

[Netopalis]

Mathcam: I started noticing it after I tried to search for him posting in other threads once the point was made. I read through a few of his things to see what his metagame looked like, since I figured he'd be back.

[elvis_knits]

I believe town should care more about lynching scum than keeping themselves alive. I'm always more willing to die as town.

BUT

I also think it is a townie's job to not make themselves an easy lynch. That decreases the chance of townies voting for you and increases the chances of scum outting themselves when making their reasons to vote you.

I don't think it's so horrible for a townie to want to save themselves and not look like scum. It should be their primary objective, but I think it's a part of playing this game.

Whether or not Neto is TOO worried about looking like scum... maybe. I don't know. I can still see this point (like a lot of the ones about Neto) as going either way. Boxman still needs to die first.

[elvis_knits]

Also:

I've never been scum on this site

How much have you played?

[elvis_knits]

It should

N'T

be their primary objective, but I think it's a part of playing this game.

This was supposed to say that.

[Iecerint]

If I'm not conscious of how I play, I wallpost everywhere. This is my eighth game.

Waiting on Percy and/or BK.

[Konowa]

Waiting on Percy and/or BK.

+Mac

However, pet theory working in my head is more interested in what Percy has to say at the moment. I would like for him to explain his non-comment on the Boxwagon.

[StrangerCoug]

Well, a townie who always shows up as scummy isn't much help, are they? They just get in the way....

This is the awful post I speak of as it implies support for lynching village idiots. Do that and scum has an easy win.

I read that differently. I will reserve my interpretation of it until Neto clarifies, though, just in case.

Neto... what did you mean?

He had already told me that he was referring to himself and not advocating policy lynching.

Am I the only person reading this as Net going with the flow?

I'm inclined to think that you would take anything Neto said and find it scummy. Not that you don't have any valid points, but I think it's unlikely that

everything

Neto says is scummy, even if he is. Once I find myself thinking that way about someone's posts, I usually think it's time to start being conscious of my own confirmation bias.

I brought my own interpretation of the post into question because I felt it one of my weaker reads on him. That's why I was happy to simply take Neto countering me with the exact opposite—the answer to my question may very well be yes, I'm the only person interpreting the post that way.

Also:

I've never been scum on this site

How much have you played?

While Iecerint's post is noted, I don't think it's all that scummy for him to say unless he's lying about a completed game.

In other news, Boxman's blatant lurking is getting on my nerves.

[Iecerint]

Why would anyone think that it's scummy to have never been scum?

[StrangerCoug]

I'm not saying it is; to support it would be an example of the gambler's fallacy. It surprises me too that you say that, though.

[Iecerint]

I said it to contextualize my comment about what Seol said.

[MacavityLock]

Notes pretty much as I read.

I'd thought that the first "Confirm" was from some player other than SF and that MC was the first to slip up/joke about it, so I was prodding in that direction to see what would come up. As it is, he ignored me, so I guess it wasn't very effective. In any event, my current understanding that SF had already trivialized elvis's thread before that makes MC's perceived transgression all the more innocuous.

This feels really weasel-y to me.

Honestly, I really hate D1...it doesn't make a great deal of sense to me.

The famed I-have-no-idea-what-we're-doing tell.

Well, I was watching Boxman's sig, and it didn't include this game until he posted on here, which lends credibility to the "Forgot about the game" thing.

Man, is Neto paying real close attention to Boxman. (I see that Seol made this point later.)

IMO neto's reaction gets scummy mostly if boxman is scum.

If boxman is town, a scumNeto would probably not be trying to slow the wagon. I mean, maybe to earn town cred, or maybe because he thinks he would say that as town. But most of the time, if neto is scum and boxman is town, neto is not going to try to slow the boxman wagon. Right? I think so.

IF Box==Town AND Neto==Scum THEN Elvis==Scum.

And

But do you think Neto is could be scum if boxman is town?

Yes, I could see town-cred points as a motivation. Everyone, including Neto, knows Box wasn't going to get lynched on that one post alone. I wouldn't say that this scenario is likely, but it's possible.

Theory tangent, I personally do not like trying to match people together on D1. I find that I scumhunt better if I pursue the people I find the scummiest D1. After flips is when you will see me trying to connect the dots, so to speak.

I so rarely do too, but damn there are obvious connections in this game.

MacavityLock has been on V/LA, but his posts really do show a willingness to go along with whatever everybody else has said. I'm willing to remove this suspicion later and cut him some slack due to the status, but I think it definitely should be noted.

Bwah ha ha! This is hilarious. The reason? Before I disappeared, I was at least somewhat original. As far as I can tell, the only people to point at Iec by my iso post 4 were Percy and me. And in my isos 5 and 7, I was the

first

to question Neto on why the moderately small Box-wagon caused such alarms for him. That of course snowballed into the big Neto interrogation, so a cursory glance back might show me as "go[ing] along with what everybody else has said". But any actual analysis would easily prove this wrong. Seriously Neto, I may be guilty of being absent this game so far due to my LA, but unoriginality is not one of my sins.

This of course causes me to question why he has me in his sights in the first place, which of course leads to shades of OMGUS. By Neto's big player analysis post 144, had I provided substantially more, less, or different than either Percy or Konowa? If not, why are the 3 of us placed into 3 different sections of his scumlist? (Konowa: Neutral, Percy: Inactive, Me: Scum) If so, what was that difference? (Hint: I questioned Neto.)

The topic now is Boxman's continued absense. He has no excuse and he's a perfectly valid lynch. But I worry that we'd be passing up someone who is more clearly scum in my mind. I don't think that Elvis's point that Neto can't be scum if Box is town is valid, so I see no reason to lynch Box first.

Vote: Neto

[MacavityLock]

By Neto's big player analysis post 144, had I provided substantially more, less, or different than either Percy or Konowa? If not, why are the 3 of us placed into 3 different sections of his scumlist? (Konowa: Neutral, Percy: Inactive, Me: Scum) If so, what was that difference? (Hint: I questioned Neto.)

On a closer read, this is actually wrong. Both Konowa and I had questioned Neto by 144. (Percy had as well, but in a more limited fashion.) Now, I have no idea what the difference is in our posts was that caused him to put the 3 of us in different sections. So, less of his OMGUS, and more of my OMGUS actually.

[Netopalis]

You had provided substantially less than Konowa, but I may have a bit of a visibility fallacy on that point since I'm currently playing with him elsewhere. You had more than Percy, and yeah, on my readthrough it looked as if you were me-tooing. You make some good points, though. Boxman should still be the lynch today.

[Percy]

Here we are, I'm up to date. Going to run through my thoughts, and demonstrate my reasons for both scum and townreads.

I found this exchange quite interesting:

My current number two is Iecerint because of his behavior toward boxman/netopalis. He seems to vehemently support boxman wagon, yet never voted boxman, and instead votes/wagons netopalis for thinking the boxman wagon is too fast (or whatever netopalis is saying, too many votes too soon). Makes me question how genuinely he supports the boxman wagon. If he supports the boxman wagon, creating rival wagon is not really productive.

Why do you think I "vehemently support" the boxman wagon? Why do you think I'm voting Neto specifically because of his view of the speed of the wagon?

I think you support boxman wagon because you're voting netoplais for wanting the wagon to slow. You also helpfully pointed out to people that boxman HAS been online, which is a point against him. Unless you meant it another way? If I misunderstand how you feel about boxman, please tell me your feelings on boxman.

There's a difference between me "supporting" the wagon and me "vehemently supporting" the wagon. The former I understand someone thinking, but the latter I do not. Elvis claimed the latter, which is relevant because there's no reason for a town player to overestimate another player's support for a wagon. I wanted to know why she did so. (For example, I may have missed a phrase of mine that implied "vehement support," she may have misread something, etc.) As is, I'm still not sure why she chose the word she did. All my "support" for the boxman wagon has been pretty indirect.

Conclusion: Iecerint is indirectly supporting the Boxman wagon, and admitted as much. This is also pretty evasive play from Iecerint; quibbling over "vehemently" rather than addressing the substantive issues.

Now this post is really important:

Netopalis, you have been trying to slow down the Boxman wagon since it took off. First, you call Seol's reasoning for his vote shaky. If this was endgame and that was the basis of Seol's vote, then I would be inclined to agree with you. However, it was page two, and based on that I believe that the reasoning behind Seol's vote was very solid. Next, you call the wagon questionable based on the speed. Bashing a wagon as a whole and being very vague about it is scummy to me. By addressing the wagon as a whole and not the individual voters on it, I believe this leaves you plenty of wiggle room to justify your actions after the fact.

I am not sure I am buying the whole "oops, I forgot" from Boxman. He confirmed on Thursday, random voted early Friday morning, and then his, effectively, "hi guys" post was late Friday evening. It is entirely possible that he forgot to put it in his watched topics as he said, but the fact that these three posts were made two separate days does not give much justice to him saying "oops".

I am not sure how I feel about cam's unvote of Boxman. My initial reaction was the same as Sens, in that I do not see how Boxman's two quick posts can lead to an unvote. cam's reasoning in 199 makes sense to me also though. It is entirely possible that I do not like the unvote based on differing opinions about game theory, but the unvote just does not sit well.

This post gives me strong townvibes. It accurately presents Netapolis' position - that he wanted to slow the wagon down - without misrepresenting his actions to hasten a wagon.

More importantly, it not only addresses Netopalis,

but also Boxman

- this is very important to the argument as to why Netopalis is scum (that he is trying to shut down a wagon on his buddy).

The fact that Box's alignment was rarely discussed after his "whoops I forgotted" post makes me highly suspicious of the wagon - in fact, this post of Konowa's is the first discussion of the post in any detail (SensFan also discussed it, but barely qualifies - what happened to pressuring Boxman?)

Also, note that Boxman didn't Unvote after he came back in, leaving it on Netopalis. The wagon stinks.

Now when asked about the connection between Neto and Box (by elvis), Iecerint made this post:

There are some other scummy things that Neto did along the way, like suggest that we discuss the set-up rather than reactions to the wagons. Could be that he somehow really thinks it's a good idea to do as much, though.

Here Iecerint is acknowledging the fact that discussing Netopalis' alignment requires discussing Box's alignment, but he doesn't follow up (even though elvis prompts him) with his opinions on the matter. This seems like an excuse to stay on the wagon rather than an explanation as to exactly why Iecerint is voting Neto. His buddying to SensFan is fairly ubiquitous.

I agree completely with this (and it was made partially in response to Iecerint's comments):

I still think Neto's allignment is hugely tied to boxman's. Afterall, his reaction to the wagon is the main point against him.

But if boxman is town, I worry less about Netopalis.

I think boxman is scum since he came back to the game and didn't realy do anything or change his vote. (And if so, Neto very potential buddy).

But if Boxman is town, Neto was probably just some townie preaching caution.

I just think lynching neto first is backwards.

I think those voting Neto need to provide me with reasons as to why Boxman shouldn't go first.

Now this:

What if I think Neto is scummy regardless of Boxman's alignment?

Then I would vote for him once someone gives me a reason to?

I understand that scum buddy to townies. I've been the victim of it myself - scum was NKed, and I was subsequently lynched the next day for being an "obvious buddy". So I can accept that it's possible Neto is scum and decided to defend Boxman, who is town. I just don't think it's very likely in this case. Neto was attacked for not backing down, but something tells me that he would have been attacked for backing down too.

I also didn't like Neto's "sometimes we can discuss setup!", which was followed by "oh but I didn't mean

this game

"... so overall Neto is nowhere near cleared, but I don't think he should be our lynch today.

Also, jump to post 235 of SensFan's and read the following two posts. I think this looks quite bad for Iecerint - it reads to me that he's defending SensFan and attacking Netopalis over something quite minor.

What are your [Percy] opinions on both Boxman and Netopalis?

I hope I made myself clear in this post, but I'll state them here to be concise.

Boxman is either scum or is a VI. I've seen him play smarter and more involved, though, so I'm leaning mild scum. His lack of unvote with Neto exacerbates this read.

Netopalis reads to me like a cautious player. If Boxman is scum, it will look very bad for Neto, but otherwise I think he's posted a lot and weathered the suspicion pretty well. I've yet to see a good case of Neto-scum independent of Boxman's alignment.

matcham re-votes Boxman in post 240. I don't like it at all. If Boxman flips scum, I wouldn't be surprised to discover that this was a distancing move on mathcam's part.

Conclusions:
I think elvis is almost certainly town.
I think Boxman may be scum, but that the case on Netopalis is pretty dead unless Boxman is scum.
I think Iecerint is big scum,

Vote: Iecerint

.
SensFan is looking quite suspicious, weak scumread.
I think Konowa is pretty town too.
mathcam is giving me weak scum vibes.
The others didn't jump out at me. Seol posted less, but my townread hasn't lessened.

[SensFan]

SensFan is looking quite suspicious, weak scumread.

Bullshit.
Literally the only time anything I do is mentioned is when you quote me for saying I find Neto suspicious, and then claim I haven't given reasons...

[big_kahunia]

I finished reading the thread.

The main thing that jumps out to me is Neto’s scuminess.

Neto did not like the bandwagon on Box because of its speed. Yet if Neto is so upset about the speed of the Box wagon (post145), why didn’t he get upset at the speed of the Sensfan wagon? Sensfan was at three votes before Box was. In fact, Sensfan had his third vote by the end of page 1. Where was the outrage for that wagon?
Also, Neto stood up for Box when he was lurking/forgetting he was in this game. But he didn’t stand up for other players that were absent. I don’t like that favoritism.

I would vote for Neto, but he is one away from lynch and I want to him a chance to respond.

Finally, I think scum tells = more over-rated than Adam Morrison coming out college

[Iecerint]

This is also pretty evasive play from Iecerint; quibbling over "vehemently" rather than addressing the substantive issues.

Elvis potentially misrepresenting my play = evidently, not a big deal
Me wanting to set the record straight = "quibbling"

Your commentary on post 211 doesn't make any sense; rather than "acknowledging the fact that discussing Netopalis' alignment requires discussing Box's alignment," I'm giving an example of why Neto looks scummy regardless of Boxman's alignment. (In other words, that post literally says the opposite of what you claim it does.) I do as much because elvis explicitly asked for such an example.

Also, I have no idea what you mean regarding post 235. Neto didn't understand SF's post, so I explained it. I don't see how you can contrive an attack out of that. I actually already explained said post just afterward:

Neto's been feigning ignorance at why SF would vote that way for pages now. (I say "feigning" because it's been explained to him so many times that I have difficulty believing that he really doesn't understand.) I don't have a problem with trying to end issues like that when they get out of hand.

Welcome, BK. It looks like the main thing that bothers you about Neto's play is the disparity between his treatment of SF and BM. Do you think that Neto is only scummy if he is scum with BM, or do you think the disparity can be explained some other way?

[Netopalis]

BK: I will make two arguments here. First, I felt that there was more backing up the SF wagon at the time that I supported it. The boxman wagon was based on a single throwaway comment. The SF wagon was based on a much more robust body of posts.

Second, I would disagree strongly that I should be the lynch today. The argument that I am scummy for trying to defend Boxman hinges on Boxman being scum. Isn't it backwards to lynch me today?

I also feel that a lot of the case against me is really based on playstyle. I am a cautious player. Wagons made without reasons make me greatly uncomfortable. I am not entirely sure why this makes me scum, though, considering that usually the opposite is seen as scummy as well.

I honestly feel that after I started trying to stop the wagon, anything I did could be seen as scummy. I had people wanting me to do one thing and peoplke wanting me to do something else which was diametrically opposed. Then, I have people being angry at me for bemoaning the fact that I can't seem to make myself seem town as town - something which I have heard others say as well and something which I think is possibly the most useless scumtell ever. This is my case - if you honestly feel that I am scum for defending boxman, then lynch him first. He may turn out as scum. He might not. Either way, though, it's illogical to lynch me today over this.

[Konowa]

Net, you are misrepping the point bk is making. You cried foul over Boxman having three votes that early in the game, bashing it for its speed. Now at the end of page one, I placed an early third vote on SensFan. You can not claim seriously that the SensFan wagon at the point was based on a more robust body of posts. That fact that you did not cry foul over this [SensFan wagon] is inconsistency, which I find scummy.

I can not place an exact finger on it, but something about Percy's attack on Iecerint feels off. The whole digging, and subsequent voting of Iecerint for defending/explaining for SensFan while bashing those who are wanting Net lynched before Boxman just does not seem on (for lack of a better word).

[Netopalis]

Oh, I see. Honestly, I just missed that. I apologize - it wasn't a conscious decision.