Mini 861: Hellsing Mafia - (Game Over!)

[magnus_orion]

1229: Lol right, using scum interactions as evidence as terrible. As for other compelling evidence have you tried all of Day 1 MO? I'm misrepped repeatedly here, the interactions are a closer to the scumtastic cake that was D1 Saber play, but Konowa and MO ignore this every time I say it.

"compelling" being the keyword. Your evidence on day 1 I found rather lacking in its ability to convince.

Now then, say you based your case on how Saber interacted with Kik, as opposed to the other way around, it would be more compelling and less scummy.

[Chaco]

Players of all alignments feel pressure and the need to defend themselves when serious claims are being made against them.

You didn't.

[Shotty to the Body]

1229: Lol right, using scum interactions as evidence as terrible. As for other compelling evidence have you tried all of Day 1 MO? I'm misrepped repeatedly here, the interactions are a closer to the scumtastic cake that was D1 Saber play, but Konowa and MO ignore this every time I say it.

"compelling" being the keyword. Your evidence on day 1 I found rather lacking in its ability to convince.

Now then, say you based your case on how Saber interacted with Kik, as opposed to the other way around, it would be more compelling and less scummy.

So you're telling me based on Saber's D1 play you didn't find him scummy? I find that hard to believe. Kik couldn't have known she would die, it was too early for such a set-up play, scum would've taken the free lynch therefore it is pretty solid evidence. You can't possibly say you wouldn't have hammered Saber if he wasn't in your faction right there.

[Netopalis]

Chaco: No serious claims have been made against me. None that I consider particularly serious, anyway.

[magnus_orion]

So you're telling me based on Saber's D1 play you didn't find him scummy? I find that hard to believe. Kik couldn't have known she would die, it was too early for such a set-up play, scum would've taken the free lynch therefore it is pretty solid evidence. You can't possibly say you wouldn't have hammered Saber if he wasn't in your faction right there.

And you go BACK to the evidence that you didn't want to discuss, despite the point being that you were trying to say you had OTHER evidence. 9_9

This is what I mean by no other "compelling" evidence, because you yourself use this evidence almost subconsciously, because you feel it is the most compelling, despite your claimed other compelling evidence.

Also, yes, I can say that. Been there, done that.
See Twilight Mafia. L-1, I could have easily said that I had been convinced of the doctor's scumminess and hammered for the easy lynch. But I didn't feel the case looked protown enough to justify a hammer and come off looking pro-town, so I didn't. After they lynched the doctor, the town decided that I couldn't possibly have thought the doctor was town, even though in my personal opinion the case was crap, and lynched me the next day. They then lost the next day due to similar ill-conceived reasoning based off of my interactions with players to try and decide who my scum buddy was. In fact, the only posts on the last day were a series of votes straight into a town lynch to end the game, with no discussion whatsoever, because they were so convinced based on how I had interacted with a certain player.

So yes, not only have I avoided executing easy lynches as scum, I've also seen town lose due to reasoning based on a scum's interaction with other players.

In the same game.

[Netopalis]

My Case on Shotty:

The following tells are visible within his game. Analysis on each will follow, but I think it is worthwhile to keep these categories in mind while examining his play.

The tells:
Fluff posting
Advocating someone else's lynch after Looker claimed
Exonerating DB due to Kikuchiyo's play
Nudging without explicitly stating suspicion
Lack of voting




1) Fluff posting:
Personally, looking back over his posts, I think that 12 of his posts are rather fluffy, which is roughly 17%. Not a huge number, but certainly worth considering.


2) Advocating someone else's lynch after Looker claimed
Once Looker claimed, the town should have pretty much dropped what they were doing and lynched him as a claimed scum. Shotty advocated lynching Saber instead and vigging Looker. Three possible scum motivations:

a) Brownie points on bussing Saber/ABR if they flip scum - it'll look as if he unnecessarily bussed a partner when in all actuality, he knew that partner was going to get lynched on day 2 if not day 1 (at the time).

b) Wanting to avoid being a driving force behind a townie lynch and thus avoid suspicion.

c) Wanting to get rid of my vig on someone that he knows isn't scum.


3) Several times he tries to exonerate DB through Kikuchiyo's attitude towards him and makes a rather weak argument here. If DB flips scum, it's definitely worth examining, especially as his recent posts could be considered an attempt to bus a scum-DB.

4) Nudging without explicitly stating suspicion - Several times - most prominently in a question to ABR today, he will ask someone their thoughts about another player. He doesn't imply suspicion on his own part, nor does he give reasoning, but it could definitely be construed to be him attempting to build suspicion against someone without actually sticking his neck out.

5) Lack of voting - Again, Shotty really has never stuck his neck out or done anything to seriously advance the game one way or another. This is evidenced in his voting pattern. He has only made 4 votes throughout the game, 1 of which was random.


Individually, each of these are weak tells. Altogether, though, I think that they build a reasonably strong case.

[Chaco]

I'll do doom around 8pm tonight.

[Doombunny9]

Earlier it was SSK, and I. Now it's Shotty and I, any particular reason you changed course so quickly after seeming so adamant in your last post?

Because I want to hear more from the replacement first. I will most likely go back to the replacement once I hear from them.

@DB and Net: if you were not town, and were a serial killer, who would you kill tonight and why?

How exactly does this help the town? Do not like!

So who do you think scums going to kill tonight magnus? (see how bad a question yours is?)

His play since I last posted has just been awful, he's been overdefensive about what would happen to him if Chaco flipped town (implying he knew Chaco would flip town) and he's followed suit on every bandwagon the town has picked up and dropped.

Wasn't I either the one that either started the SSK bandwagon or actually made it a bandwagon? (1st or second vote). I did not imply that chaco would flip town (notice my use of ifs) I was saying that IF (see!) he was town then there was no for sure way that I would be lynched (which is how he was acting)

Also, I know the stuff behind Shotty's lynch and while I do agree with most of it, like saber d1, I don't really want to lynch him for it unless theres no better choice.

[Chaco]

I believe I'll format this similarly to Nets for comparison purposes.

The Tells:

Waffling
Wagon Hopping
Defense mounted from my "gambit", if you will (Keen on self-preservation)
Following the leader (leader bring Neto)
Fluff
Not caring how the lynch plays out

Okay so to avoid ripping off an argument, I'll simply restate that Doom waffled like crazy D1.

Now, for his wagon hopping. Doom has been on like every single wagon that there has been. Pretty self explanatory.

Then there was what I wanted to happen. His over defensive to my idle threats. He constantly reposed the idea that if I was town he couldn't be scum. And as Shotty pointed out, he insinuated knowing I was town. It seems like a very self preserved style of play. Like when he's under scrutiny he gets kind of quiet. Basically Net was his defense lawyer. He mounted his defense for him, and once the scrutiny had passed. BURST of activity.

Now, for following the leader. Doom has often piggy backed Net's ideas and voted. He just seems to leech his ideas directly from Net. But I am not using that as a connection.

Obv fluff posts.

And once he again, he doesn't really care who we lynch. It's went from like whoever the main targets are.

Not that organized, but seriously. Yeah, he needs to die.

[Albert B. Rampage]

DL soon guys. I'm down to lynch MafiaSSK.

[Chaco]

Yeah, we have 24 hours.

[Konowa]

Vote DB

His play since I last posted has just been awful, he's been overdefensive about what would happen to him if Chaco flipped town (implying he knew Chaco would flip town) and he's followed suit on every bandwagon the town has picked up and dropped.

Woah, woah, woah. Let's back this train up. How has Doombunny's play been any different these past few pages as opposed to the rest of the game? Note: Do not answer that. It has not. Here is a better question I do want you to answer though. How has Doombunny's play these past few pages caused you to totally abandon the thought that Doombunny was town based on Kik's willingness to lynch sABeR and not Doombunny? Does this mean that you now think that sABeR is town? I think I just got whiplash from that 180.

unvote;

vote Shotty to the Body

Note to all: I am not going to be around tomorrow. Extended family that could not make the wedding is flying in tomorrow and will be stuck entertaining. Saying that, my vote will be staying where it is as I think Shotty is the best lynch today.

[Kairyuu]

I'm extending the deadline by one week to find a replacement and give them time to catch up.

[Doombunny9]

Now, for his wagon hopping. Doom has been on like every single wagon that there has been. Pretty self explanatory.

Wait? When did this happen? I have only been on three (I think) major wagons.

1-Saber. At the time he seemed like the play of the day and like I said, if there was no one better, I would be fine with a saber lynch.
2-Looker, pretty self explanitory. I mean he claimed scum!
3-SSK, like I said, I either was the first person to put my vote on him or actually made it a bandwagon so you cant't say I really "joined" that bandwagon.

Then there was what I wanted to happen. His over defensive to my idle threats. He constantly reposed the idea that if I was town he couldn't be scum. And as Shotty pointed out, he insinuated knowing I was town. It seems like a very self preserved style of play. Like when he's under scrutiny he gets kind of quiet. Basically Net was his defense lawyer. He mounted his defense for him, and once the scrutiny had passed. BURST of activity.

Read my last post. I clearly said IF in all my posts regarding that and the thing I have said about it is "You can't say that I'm 100% scum if you get lynched"

And once he again, he doesn't really care who we lynch. It's went from like whoever the main targets are.

This is pretty much the same thing as your first argument. Same things. Also, I DO care how the lynch plays out. I did NOT however, care wether if it was you or SSK who got lynched because of you both being equally scummy.

In fact, you aren't really hearing out my defence. I've already gone over most of that stuff before and you don't seem to be responding to any of it.[/quote]

[Chaco]

So you wouldn't count the multiple votes on me a wagon, when it happened?

[Netopalis]

I would like to respond to two things. Both are contained within this quote.

Then there was what I wanted to happen. His over defensive to my idle threats. He constantly reposed the idea that if I was town he couldn't be scum. And as Shotty pointed out, he insinuated knowing I was town. It seems like a very self preserved style of play. Like when he's under scrutiny he gets kind of quiet. Basically Net was his defense lawyer. He mounted his defense for him, and once the scrutiny had passed. BURST of activity.

1) I think you are misrepresenting DB's reaction. You said "If I flip town, DB must be scum." DB responded with "This isn't necessarily true." You immediately take this as being overly defensive and now you say that he was saying the inverse - that if you flipped town he COULDN'T be scum. This all is rather bothersome and is a return to old Chaco. Frankly, it makes me want to move my vote back.

2) Defense lawyer...Well, admittedly, it's a role I fall into easily. However, as I said earlier, I have seen no truly good case that merits the amount of attention that DB has received in this game - just the creation of a culture which finds him scummy.

[Chaco]

Well, the point is. He never mounted a defense on his own, you simply did it for him.

[Netopalis]

Fair enough, I suppose. I probably should have let him speak for himself a bit more. On the other hand, though, I think that my actions prevented a hasty and questionable lynch, worked to get more player opinions out and encouraged a lot more critical thinking.

[Konowa]

Erk. Just noticed a fault in my 1361.

Question I want Shotty to answer is this:

How has Doombunny's play these past few pages caused you to totally abandon the thought that Doombunny was town based on Kik's willingness to lynch Doombunny and not sABeR?

[Chaco]

Well, if he is scum, you've successfully allowed him to due nothing.

[Shotty to the Body]

Erk. Just noticed a fault in my 1361.

Question I want Shotty to answer is this:

How has Doombunny's play these past few pages caused you to totally abandon the thought that Doombunny was town based on Kik's willingness to lynch Doombunny and not sABeR?

Apparently the logic is flawed, I suppose what MO suggests is possible as I've never played with Kik scum, either way what I've been trying to say this entire time is that those interactions are secondary evidence. It goes both ways to Doom's towniness as well as Saber's scuminess. The case early on in the day against DB was weak, it is more coherent now and I have a few bones of my own to pick with his posts.

[Doombunny9]

So you wouldn't count the multiple votes on me a wagon, when it happened?

Forgot that Even so, this arguement is very weak as do also beleive that I was the one that brought some attention to you (if it was not you that did it yourself. either way, I was a help to it)

Also, I think I should adress Shotty's wall.

1190- How do you find this scummy exactly? I see nothing wrong with announcing that I would post later.
1206-I agree
1228-That was the epitome? I'm sorry butif that's the epitome then you have a VERY weak arguement.
1258-I don't know if you've read since my second to last post but you'll see my reasoning there.
1322-And what is wrong with an opinion? In fact, what is scummy about this at all? I said I would lay off of SSK until I could hear from the replacement, and would instead ather go off of you or chaco. Can you explain why you think ths is scummy.

And that's pretty much all Shotty wrote about how I'm scummy (I'm not sure if 1206 was about me being scummy or not so I put it in there anyway). In fact, a lot of this wall just seems like summary to me.

Shotty- Is there anything else that you think is scummy or is this pretty much it?

[Doombunny9]

EBWOP: Missed Shottys last post which leaves my defence to 1258 pretty much null.

Shotty- If you could, please respond to my 1357? Is it scummy to tell him that he could be wrong? He was pretty much saying that If he flipped town then I had to be scum. I don't see how correcting him is scummy.

[magnus_orion]

How exactly does this help the town? Do not like!

So who do you think scums going to kill tonight magnus? (see how bad a question yours is?)

Me. What was so bad about that?

Now please, answer the question. It helps the town by helping to read your alignment. Who would you kill, and why?

[Netopalis]

I seriously doubt that you would be the NK, MO. I'm still not sure what you're getting at. Judging my reactions through who I want to vig? That seems rather contrived. Can't you just look at it after I act?