Mini 873 Plainview Game Over

[Sanjay]

foilist13, do you think AlmasterGM is a good lynch today? Explain your answer.

[archaebob]

If we think they are scum we don't need extra incentive to lynch them.

True. But what do you do when you have two players that you think are BOTH scum? How do you decide which one to lynch first?

Plus I really don't see how an AlmasterGM lynch would be less illuminating than a foilist13 lynch.

Gammagooey: Feeling pretty town about Gammagooey.

Another person that is practically confirmed town if foilist happens to be scum

.

If foilist13 is mafia MordyS is definitely town.

I would say that confirming two players as pro-town is quite a bit more illuminating than the very inconclusive information we would get from this:

If AlmasterGM is town, we have a very scummy looking townie that has been under attack from page one. Pretty much everyone has commented on him.

And your efforts to dodge discussing the connection between peanutman and foilist13 has been noted.

[foilist13]

Obviously. I am voting for him, and he's at L-2.

The only real case he has made against another player was early in the thread against Archaebob, and it was half assed at that. He has done no scumhunting other than that, and has spent all his time telling people they can't lynch him rather than saying who they should lynch. I don't think he's even mentioned the case on me, and hasn't posted any serious suspicion in a very long time. Even if he is the doctor, i think he is such a useless player that we would be just as well off without him and an answer to whether he's scum or not. Does that satisfy you?

[foilist13]

@Archaebob - Answer my question.

[archaebob]

@ foilist -

I consider you equally likely to be scum, but I consider your lynch to be more informative.

I'm not going to comment on your defense vs. his right now.

[archaebob]

FoS: Sanjay

[MordyS]

Why did you FoS Sanjay?

[foilist13]

No Archaebob. You need to justify your vote on me, especially since you've decided to confirm it and commit yourself to lynching me today. It is more relevant who is more likely to be scum than whose lynch will be more informative.

[archaebob]

I don't buy his AGM vote.

At all.

[AlmasterGM]

Almaster has a RADICALLY different style for playing as doctor than cop

Meta FTL. Why don't I just play each role the same every single time and make myself 100% predictable?

He soft-claimed vanilla townie despite in fact not being one

I've already gone over this. I'll go over criticisms to it on-topic.

AlmasterGM, if you are a doc why would you do things to actively draw attention to you like your "joke" about how you were going to stop paying attention and your proclamation that you got a wagon off you by ignoring it?

I didn't think either of those statements would cause the chaos they did, and archaebob kept pressuring me to do something useful asap so I tried.

However, I am a huge proponent of "if you're going to lie as town, you better have a damn good reason for it"

Ok, it's not like I hardclaimed VT on Day 1 and then tried to switch to Cop in Day 4 lylo. There was a pressured softclaim that I didn't even want to make a big deal out of. You're completely exploding the issue.

..... If you truly are the doctor, this is NOT how to use your role. By your ridiculous behavior and bringing so much attention to yourself today, you've just *guaranteed* that you will *never* be able to use your night ability! Either we will lynch you today, you will be NKed as Doc, or you will be RBed as doc. How in the world is that using your role???

So I played badly D1. I still know how to send a PM to the mod - e.g., I can perform my Doctorly functions.

Also, where have you been?

The problem here is that you didn't have to say anything. If you're a doctor, you just had to answer the question of why you're more aggressive in this game than in that game (where you had a PR). Anyway, as Sanjay points out, those Minis don't answer the question anyway. In 844 you're a mason, in 851 you're a VT, and in 863 you're still in orbit. Gammagooey's (it was him, right?) question was: I saw a game you were in where you were cop and were way less aggressive. Your answer was: Check out my VT meta where I've been just as aggressive. (A totally legit defense at the time -- well, legit enough.) But now that you're claiming doctor, his question comes back in full force. I saw a game you were in where you were cop and were way less aggressive. Your answer now is pointing to a game where you were a Mason, a game where you were VT and a game currently in process? Show him (us) a game where you had a PR like cop or doctor and were just as aggressive.

There isn't any. This is my first time playing as doctor, and my second town-PR (not counting Mason as a PR). Obviously, I played it poorly and should have answered is question differently (e.g., more cryptically). That's all I can say.

Vote: AlmasterGM

This dude has the most unexplained things so he's the one I want lynched, doc claim or no.

What happened in-between this post and your last one that caused the massive change in heart?

Also, I think AlmasterGM is lying, and I think he's trying to ferret out a real town doctor by claiming town. He hasn't answered a single question I've asked him about his claim (well, he did answer that one with three games, but as Sanjay points out, they actually didn't answer the question at all). Maybe he's hoping that if he remains quiet, the bandwagon will disappear off him again?

I am not trying to dodge questions. If I missed any, please re-quote and I will answer them.

P.S. What is VI?

1. The mafia isn't going to solve the problem for us.
2. If we don't lynch AlmasterGM, every day it's just gonna be "hey, do you want to lynch this dude yet".

OK, so how is this bad for the town? If I'm telling the truth, you get free Doc protection or you waste mafia roleblocks (if they have any). If I'm lying, you get me later. Why, exactly, do I need to die NOW?

4. Docs are great and all, but at best they are a mild inconvenience to the scumteam, especially outed.

So it's OK to lynch because the doc "isn't that good." This is just incorrect.

[archaebob]

k, i'm signing off for the night. lots of hw to do

[Sanjay]

Oh me oh my. I tried so hard to dodge discussing that but you found me out. Well done.

Here's why foilist13 flipping town doesn't matter towards peanutman's scumminess:

If foilist13 flips town, that doesn't clear peanutman in my eyes. In general, I don't think scum are that much less likely to defend unpopular townies than town are. Scum have to get mislynches AND appear townish, and even though defending unpopular townies doesn't help them towards that first goal, it does help them towards the second goal.

This is a relatively unscummy town so maybe they'd be less inclined to do so, but I still don't buy the argument "peanutman tried to defend a townie, foilist13 must be town".

It shouldn't even be a question of foilist13's alignment. The real question to ask is "is peanutman's defense of foilist13 justified?" If the answer is no, then he is scummy because of it. If the answer is yes, then not nearly as much.

[archaebob]

and AGM, VI means "village idiot". Refers to a town player who fucks everyone over by being retarded.

See foilist's play in Newbie 846 for an example of this.

[Sanjay]

That last post of mine was in response to this:

And your efforts to dodge discussing the connection between peanutman and foilist13 has been noted.

[Benmage]

Vote Count:
AlmasterGM (4) MordyS, Gammagooey, foilist13, Sanjay
foilist13 (3) cruelty, archaebob, SpryeX
Archaebob (1) AlmasterGM
Cruelty (1) Papa Zito

Note Voting (3) Muffin, PhaerieM, peanutman

[peanutman]

If GM gets votes I will hammer the space hell zombies out of him.

I want blood. Real bad

And this is part of why I unvoted. For people who seem to clutter the thread with noise more than anything else. Spyrex, I feel you have contributed very little to the town, mostly agreeing with the MordyS/Gammagooey/Bob team. However, of them all, you haven't really brought many new things to this game. And know you just want to hammer for the sake of hammering. You thought he was scum, you didn't blink an eye with his claim (valid or not is irrelevant at this point), you won't blink before hammering. For someone Mordy said we should be afraid of, you haven't put up much of note. I say less blood, more brains from you.

SpyreX: I was just planning on judging him and MordyS as one composite unit if that's okay. Hopefully town.

No no. You shouldn't do that. For one, pairing people up, especially D1, makes things unnecessarily convoluted. On top of that, I fail to see how Spyrex and MordyS's play have been alike. Care to show me or, better yet, change your read on Spyrex?

Believe me, I've noticed Spyrex, he's not slipping anywhere.

Oh, and just so that I didn't lie to you:

foilist13
peanutman
cruelty
Spyrex

So, Archaebob, is your scummy read of Spyrex just an act so that it seems that you're looking into everyone or do you actually have suspcious things to raise about him? Because, having scanned you in iso, I haven't seen any accusations thrown his way (even though you have thrown alot this game). All your questions directed at him are politely asking what you think of one situation or another. You stated previously that even though you didn't explicitly tell us who you suspected, we could tell from your questionning tactics. However, forgive me at being surprised to see Spyrex in your top 4 when you never have yet to point a suspicious glance his way.

Questions/Comments directed at me

Shocker. Peanutman unvotes when he's got a convenient excuse to abandon the bus.

I'm surprised that you're shocked that I unvoted following a PR claim. The town was burned last game I was in for not doing that, and I don't feel, even at worst-case scenario (i.e. GM is lying scum), that unvoting is a horrible idea. He will most likely not last until end game but there is no need to use our lynch on him today because we already have something strong to go on and can decide to lynch him another day.

peanutman, what do you think is scummy about AlmasterGM?

As I explained with my vote, GM's statement that he wouldn't scumhunt and just wait to be swayed by everyone else was poor play regardless of alignment and so I called him on it and, with my vote, wanted to pressure him to react and get involved again. To some extent, the plan worked because we got a claim out of him. I do not wish to rehash the different cases set against him that do, though I agree that some elements are quite scummy.

peanutman, early in the game you said this:

peanutman wrote:
I usually try to give people the benefit of the doubt in the early stages of mafia games. Given that the majority of the players are town, chances are when I pick up on something and I question them, they are probably town. Nonetheless, I do question them to get a read, but I don't feel the need to always be aggressive.

Why did you abandon this strategy? This hasn't described your scumhunting at all since you said it.

For one, I said that was how I acted "in the early stages of mafia games". With about 15 different cases and 25 pages of posts, I would say we are past the early stages. That being said, I don't feel I have acted completely contrary to my earlier post. I give the benefit of the doubt to players in the first few posts because there is so little to go on from and I do not wish to catch myself tunnelling a single player on a most likely insignificant phrase he/she stated on page 2, for example. So I give the benefit of the doubt to the first plays, though I do make note of them. And I don't feel I am particular aggressive with any one player (i.e. I have not asked for anyone's blood) and have tried to highlight those players who are leading the town discussions and riding what seems to some to be an obv-town or most-likely-town reading.

You both have expressed a strong dislike for players posting information about who seems townish in the game, for the reason that it makes it easier for scum to pick out their NK. Yet neither one of you commented at all when Spyrex declared that he thought I was confirmed town.
Why is the above declaration okay, when other attempts to indicate who seems townish have been met with heated resistance from you?

I did note his comment, as well as the others (i.e. Sanjay declaring Gammagooey pro-town, post 576). But, as I alluded to earlier in this post, the main tone I get from all his posts is noise, with parroting added to the mix.

[peanutman]

FoS: Sanjay

Why did you FoS Sanjay?

I don't buy his AGM vote.

At all.

Is it so hard for you to explain your votes and FOSs in the same post? Stop making us ask you why, it's just scummy!

[SpyreX]

Ok, it's not like I hardclaimed VT on Day 1 and then tried to switch to Cop in Day 4 lylo. There was a pressured softclaim that I didn't even want to make a big deal out of. You're completely exploding the issue.

No.

There was no "pressure" for anything to do with your claim.

You opted to give false information about your role in order to attempt to diffuse a case on yourself.

You went "Check out these games where I was vanilla."

You have then claimed doc.

One of these two statements was a lie designed for survival.

This is a killable offense. Period. This is a scum manuever. Period. If, somehow, you are magically town that does not change these facts. Period.

End Line.

(Of course you're not getting lynched today so wooo)

[Sanjay]

Mod: I'm voting for AlmasterGM, not archaebob.

fixed thanks

[Sanjay]

If we think they are scum we don't need extra incentive to lynch them.

True. But what do you do when you have two players that you think are BOTH scum? How do you decide which one to lynch first?

Plus I really don't see how an AlmasterGM lynch would be less illuminating than a foilist13 lynch.

Gammagooey: Feeling pretty town about Gammagooey.

Another person that is practically confirmed town if foilist happens to be scum

.

If foilist13 is mafia MordyS is definitely town.

I would say that confirming two players as pro-town is quite a bit more illuminating than the very inconclusive information we would get from this:

If AlmasterGM is town, we have a very scummy looking townie that has been under attack from page one. Pretty much everyone has commented on him.

And your efforts to dodge discussing the connection between peanutman and foilist13 has been noted.

You are comparing the ramifications of foilist13 being scum with the ramifications of AlmasterGM being town. Of course a scum flip is going to be more illuminating than a town flip.

Besides, turning Gammagooey and MordyS into practically confirmed town isn't actually that illuminating to me if you consider where my opinions are right now.

[archaebob]

@ AGM -

why are you still voting for me?

[archaebob]

@ Sanjay -

What does the town learn if AGM flips scum?

[Sanjay]

It's largely irrelevant, archaebob. We really shouldn't be picking who to lynch based on what we learn if they are scum. If we think they are scum, we should lynch them.

[Sanjay]

archaebob, could you elaborate on how AlmasterGM and foilist13 seem equally scummy to you?

[Sanjay]

AGM, this was the initial question that prompted the softclaim:

Almaster the game I read with you in it was Stratego mafia, and you definitely weren't this aggressive in there, is there a different game in particular I should be reading to see this prejudice you speak of?

This

forced your softclaim? Couldn't you have just mentioned a different game where you were more aggressive? You introduced the distinction between the your PR meta and your VT meta. You totally didn't need to make a big deal of this. Why not just declare "Meta FTL" like you just did now.

I'm really skeptical that this wouldn't occur to you.

Another question: if you decided being a cop meant you ought to play a more conservative game, why didn't you decide to play a more conservative game as a doctor? It's not an issue of meta. You've expressed the idea that you would play a cop conservatively. Why play a doc differently?

Lastly, this is garbage:

AlmasterGM, if you are a doc why would you do things to actively draw attention to you like your "joke" about how you were going to stop paying attention and your proclamation that you got a wagon off you by ignoring it?

I didn't think either of those statements would cause the chaos they did, and archaebob kept pressuring me to do something useful asap so I tried.

Firstly, you mentioned how much you like lurking your wagons away twice. It didn't go over the first time. Did that stop you the next time? Heck no.

Secondly, what use did you intend your joke to have? What use did you intend your joke to have that wouldn't involve more attention being paid to you?