Mini 876 - Tree Stump II [Day None] (Abandoned)

[Quagmire]

To answer said question:

Are you saying that by admitting that he doesn't think the behaviour is scummy, he renders his own vote useless?

If he's town, the vote is stupid and useless. If he's scum, it's a vote designed to look aggressive. I think it's the latter, because Shanba's too smart and experienced a player to make that gaffe as town.

[Quagmire]

Sorry for the double posting. I'm V/LA until Saturday.

[The Fonz]

proof, Fonz:

No, THAT's bullshit. Things that are antitown, by definition, hurt the town's chances of winning the game. If town people do scum-favouring things, scum players will be able to get away with advancing their win condition more blatantly. The only way you can stop people doing antitown things is to threaten them with lynch if they don't stop doing them.

Your analogy is bollocks, because throwing a fastball on a 2-2 count is a valid strategy for getting the batter out. It might not be the best choice, but the pitcher is still trying to get the hitter out and not give him the base. Town players acting antitown is the equivalent of intentionally walking the pitcher with the bases loaded.

Again, that is no evidence that I am somehow treating mafia as a mathematical formula. Scum want to stop town winning; town want to help that end. Therefore, anyone doing something that makes a scum win more likely, and a town win less (ie, antitown) is more likely to be acting from a scum motive than a town motive, and is hence more likely scum than someone who hadn't taken the antitown action.

[Shanba]

OK, back to Shanba here, as I got sidetracked a little bit..

1

I do think my vote is justified, and I dispute the idea that picking on the easy target is a bad thing in context.

2

The basic idea behind what you're saying is that I'm (possibly) scum who was trying to build a bandwagon against Tjoe Min Ja.

3

Except that makes no sense, since there's little point in building a bandwagon as scum unless it's going to lead to a lynch or a claim.

4

How often have you actually seen this type of vote actually lead to a wagon or lynch?

The problem with your actions in their context was that the vote was completely unnecessary and unjustified... scummy, in other words.

The problem I have with this post is in 3 and 4... it's misleading to say that scum's goal is to create bandwagons that will actually lead to a lynch or claim. Instead, the scum's goal should be to look as townie as possible, in order to stay alive. That vote, while it won't lead to a lynch anytime soon, is an 'off-the-beaten-path' kind of move or logic, and I just don't think I buy it, even though those kinds of moves give me a town feeling more often than not.

In other words, 4 isn't a valid defense, because leading to a lynch isn't the ultimate goal of a scum-motivated player. Looking like a townsperson is.

Yes I could, but a vote by its very nature amplifies pressure. If you're voted, it focuses your attention on the player voting for you, and makes you more likely to respond to them. How often have you seen players just blatantly ignore quetions addressed to them? Far more often than they ignore votes, in my experience.

Now this is just a bullshit excuse. You know I'm not going to buy a 'preemptive strike' when he didn't do anything scummy to merit a vote in the first place.

Now, I agree with you that I don't have the requisite info to be able to work out Tjoe's alignment just through pressure; but then, the pressure in and of itself allows me to gain more information about him. I get at once a baseline idea of how he thinks and possible extra info which I can scan for generic scumtells (which while they may not be as accurate as meta-specific, are still perfectly legit).

Now take his response. He said that he voting people for pressure is necessary, he said that he doesn't believe there is a lot of information available day 1. That information in and of itself is useful; for example, it means we might expect him to scumhunt harder day 2 onwards, it means we can call him on it if he ever says anything about how he thinks voting for pressure is a scumtell. We also get a clarification of his thought processes about Cybele and chinaman.

It's interesting, as I'd normally be on quag's side here (particularly on thigns like "This is a sidetracking theory post, but no no no a thousand times no. People who think this are terrible at playing mafia."), but the basic idea I can't get my head round is that he doesn't want me to try and pressure a guy 4 pages into day 1.

I'm all for pressuring people... I believe I've said this already. The problem was that you pressured him in a scummy manner; i.e. placing a useless vote on him. It's much more likely this is an effort by you to look more towniesh as I don't see any town motives in your actions so far.

Ok, it seems like you have misunderstood what the purpose of my vote was, and it wasn't to discern alignment. Hence me saying, I don't reaclly care whether he's scum or town right now. That can come later. I know there are people who say they can magically discern any scum from random voting stage action, but frankly I've always been skeptical of that. My aims were pretty simple: find out more about the way he plays.

I don't really understand how the vote was useless, as vote=pressure almost by definition, and given I didn't really want my vote anywhere else at that point, why not use it there (+ all the reasons in my above post)? I don't see why a player has to do something scummy before you pressure vote them, either.

Eh. I'm dropping this. Not gonna respond any more.

Vote: Sanjay

[Sanjay]

Hi!

[The Fonz]

What's happened to Cybele? He appears to have vanished.

[Tjoe Min Ja]

unvote

vote Cybele

come out, please!

[Tjoe Min Ja]

@mod : can you prod cobalt, jester and cybele?

and vote count please?

[SensFan]

Vote Count time!
saberwolf - 3 (scotmany, Empking, Sudo_Nym)
Cybele - 2 (Fonz, Tjoe Min Ja)
Cobalt - 1 (Cybele)
Quagmire - 1 (Cobalt)
scotmany - 1 (Empking)
Shanba - 1 (Quagmire)
Mr. Jester - 1 (Sanjay)
Sanjay - 1 (Shanba)

Not Voting - 11 (Mr.Jester)

7 to lynch

[SensFan]

@mod : can you prod cobalt, jester and cybele?

and vote count please?

Prodded those three people.

[Empking]

unvote

vote Cybele

come out, please!

Why didn't you answer my question?

[saberwolf]

apparantly I don't have a vote, according to vote count

Guess I better make my voice heard:

vote:quagmire

out of the whole q/f/s debate, I feel he had the worst case.

[Sanjay]

You sure you want to abandon your previous suspect, saberwolf?

[saberwolf]

You sure you want to abandon your previous suspect, saberwolf?

my previous vote was on the mod, lol

[scotmany12]

apparantly I don't have a vote, according to vote count

Guess I better make my voice heard:

vote:quagmire

out of the whole q/f/s debate, I feel he had the worst case.

Why don't you explain why he had the worst case, then explain why that warrants a vote, instead of just placing a vote and hoping others do the work for you.

[saberwolf]

apparantly I don't have a vote, according to vote count

Guess I better make my voice heard:

vote:quagmire

out of the whole q/f/s debate, I feel he had the worst case.

Why don't you explain why he had the worst case, then explain why that warrants a vote, instead of just placing a vote and hoping others do the work for you.

because that, my dear friend, requires a lot of work. I am a very lazy person, and only bother to apply myself if the game reaches a critical point.

If you wish, you can take my laziness and claim its a scumtell, and vote for me, and start yet another debate between others such as quagmire and fonz that will stray off to trivial matters, or you can vote for me, tell everyone else to stfu, and roll with the BW, or pressure me into posting, or chase somebody else. The choice is yours. If you take a look at all my current games, I have been very reclusive, due to real life issues.

[Tjoe Min Ja]

@Empyking : which question? I thought I already answer that.

my vote stand until those lurker come out.

[The Fonz]

@Sanjay: Why do you think Shanba voted you?

[Sanjay]

I haven't the foggiest.

[Sudo_Nym]

unvote, vote Cybele

Ironic vote for lurking. Work has been murder for me, if that counts as an excuse.

[Tjoe Min Ja]

*sigh*

are the inactivity going to be replaced or what?

[The Fonz]

We have a serious lurking problem, especially since i haven't seen that much scummy among the actives. Cybele i noticed posted elsewhere on the site at least thirty times since he last posted here. He is either deliberately uberlurking, or has flaked- which is pretty low if he's still posting on the site regularly.

@Sud0: Do you have any unironic opinions?

[SensFan]

Cobalt and Mr.Jester have not picked up their prods, and so I'm looking for a replacement.

[The Fonz]

read: Cybele has, and is intentionally lurking.

[saberwolf]

read: Cybele has, and is intentionally lurking.

I am also intentionally sitting back and lurking, trying to get a read out of fonz quag and shanba as they do the post-o-death for at least 2-3 more page's worth.

discuss