Mini 873 Plainview Game Over

[MordyS]

Also, 4) "Also, Option 3 is what we call a townie gambit, and it's perfectly legit imo tbh," why exactly is this a legit townie gambit? Honestly, look at his circumstances. He's probably going to be lynched, and he already softclaimed VT. What exactly does he stand to gain from gambiting a false doctor claim?

[Papa Zito]

[1]So you're backing off your explanation. [2]Can you give an explanation for him softclaiming VT? [3]Or do you really think he softclaimed it because he wanted to take any PR attention off him. Because 1) I doubt there was any PR attention on him. [4]He was on so many people's scum lists any scum (all this assuming he isn't one himself) would've left him alive to sow confusion in town, 2) he could've easily have given the answer he gave me on this page -- ie, that he's been way more aggressive in other games. instead of lying about his role, and 3)[5] lynch all liars.

1. wat
2. It may have been a screw-up.
3. No, not at that point, that doesn't make sense.
4. Yeah, just said that. The thing is that he's not in imminent danger of being NKed, he's in imminent danger of being mislynched. (I'm playing AGM-is-VT here) So he avoids what he knows is a certain mislynch and he does a good deed for the town. A+ Boy Scout material.
5. Bah, that's the easy way out.

PREVIEW EDIT:

Also, 4) "Also, Option 3 is what we call a townie gambit, and it's perfectly legit imo tbh," why exactly is this a legit townie gambit? Honestly, look at his circumstances. He's probably going to be lynched, and he already softclaimed VT. What exactly does he stand to gain from gambiting a false doctor claim?

See #4 above.

[Gammagooey]

So, Almaster is claiming doctor. Let's get some amusement out of this and assume it's true for a second. That would mean:

Almaster has a RADICALLY different style for playing as doctor than cop

He soft-claimed vanilla townie despite in fact not being one

and conveniently has a non-confirmable but very useful role that makes him a poor lynch.

In short, I don't habeeb it.

[Sanjay]

AlmasterGM, if you are a doc why would you do things to actively draw attention to you like your "joke" about how you were going to stop paying attention and your proclamation that you got a wagon off you by ignoring it?

Doesn't make sense.

[SpyreX]

Wait, hold up.

You're saying you think AGM IS a VT?

[SpyreX]

Let me expand a bit.

I'm not a proponent of lynch ALL liars.

However, I am a huge proponent of "if you're going to lie as town, you better have a

damn

good reason for it"

There was no good reason. There was no SCUM FOUND trap there (which should be the point of a

good

gambit).

There was no snipe at me or whomever else for calling out that softclaim.

It was all survival. No. No go.

[Sanjay]

I kind of had a sort of neutral to townish read on AlmasterGM because I felt like the initial stuff he was brought up for didn't really seem like that big of a deal so I was kind of more wary of all the pressure on him than I was on him.

There were some things that AlmasterGM did that seemed too ridiculous of scum to do but those same things seem kind of ridiculous for a doctor to do too, so I guess I have to throw my townish read out the window.

AlmasterGM as a vanilla townie is even more ridiculous, by the way. Even if the VT gambit was a good idea in general, the idea of doing it after several people in the thread have mentioned how they wouldn't believe anything but a VT claim is loco.

Also:

Ok, let's skip the VT gambit for a second. Now that you've claimed a PR, wanna answer Gammagooey's original question that you ducked by lying?

Mini 844.
Mini 851.
Mini 863 (ongoing).

Much more aggressive in all of these.

When I first read this post, I assumed that those games actually answer the question. Don't make the same mistake I did.

[Sanjay]

Even being a power role only goes so far if you won't do any scumhunting. You've spent almost the entire thread half assing a bunch of illogical defenses, why don't you post something new?

How bout, gee I dunno, an accusation? A scum list? A case? Something?

I don't recall this being why AlmasterGM was scummy. Are you confusing him with somebody else?

[Papa Zito]

Wait, hold up.

You're saying you think AGM IS a VT?

I think the reasonable possibilities are vanilla townie, doc or scum (of some sort, doesn't matter).

Based on his play I think he's more likely scum than the other two. However as policy I don't go lynching uncountered power roles unless there's a super duper good reason (obv lying about targets, etc) I'd prefer we wait until later to deal with it and also see how night actions sort things out.

[Papa Zito]

Update to this since I think it'll be important later:

Case 1: MordyS vs. foilist13 (100, 131)

- hmmmmmm these are pretty good points, especially this early.

Case 2: foilist13 vs. Muffin (125)

- bad case

Case 3: peanutman vs. archaebob (139)

- Would only agree on a couple points if we were later in the game

Case 4: AlmasterGM vs. archaebob (221)

- Agree on a few points but they're aren't damning. Some weird repeats of Peanut's case.

Case 5: AlmasterGM vs. MordyS (also 221)

- Horrible. All theory and wrong at that. lulz

Case 6: MordyS vs. AlmasterGM (238)

- Some of these are nulltells I think but I agree that just abandoning the Gammagooey point just because people questioned it is scummy.

Case 7: Muffin vs. cruelty (289)

- PbPA, I agree with all points here.

Case 8: cruelty vs. archaebob (290)

- Playstyle nonsense.
Sanjay's 327 isn't a case but it was lulz so I thought I'd say so here.

Case 9: SpyreX vs. AlmasterGM (351)

- I agree with a couple of points here. Good case.

Case 10: Sanjay vs. Foilist13 (356)

- This is actually quite good, but I'm not sure how this proves he's scum... could he be just embarrassed town?

Case 11: archaebob vs. Peanutman (370)

- This case is pretty much predicated on Foilist13 being scum.

Case 12: MordyS vs. Peanutman (455)

- Not a huge fan of this one; the best points depend on AGM flipping scum.

Case 13: PhaerieM vs. Muffin (464)

- Some good points here.

Arrite, so. After all this cruelty is still my fave. AGM is #2 except the damn claim muddles everything. Sanjay has rocketed up the charts to #3 (congrats!).

BTW 13 cases on day 1 is insanity.

[MordyS]

How can you tell whether a doctor is obviously lying about targets?

[SpyreX]

Exactly - especially when they're controlling the kill.

IF IF I can't get this wagon a pushin like it should be I'm far more down for a foil lynch than a cruelty one at the mo' (because if foil flips scum, well, you know the drill).

The sad thing is I -get- where PZ is coming from but a duck is still a scum is a duck - I would give far more leeway to this if not for that VT business which I am 100% calling shenanigans on.

[Papa Zito]

How can you tell whether a doctor is obviously lying about targets?

There are a few ways.

1. He picks people that don't make sense. (Choosing some random guy vs. another claimed PR, choosing someone the town in general feels is scummy, etc)
2. He picks people he himself previously listed as scummy.
3. He picks someone who died. "How'd he die then?" "Gee I dunno."

I feel like there's a couple more that I can't think of off the top of my head. This sounds like a good wiki article.

[PhaerieM]

Q: You suck at this game.
A: Fine. I still know how to use my role.

..... If you truly are the doctor, this is NOT how to use your role. By your ridiculous behavior and bringing so much attention to yourself today, you've just *guaranteed* that you will *never* be able to use your night ability! Either we will lynch you today, you will be NKed as Doc, or you will be RBed as doc. How in the world is that using your role???

If you *are* the doc, I'm going to be livid.

[MordyS]

This is what I don't understand.

I was a cop in that game, so I had to play conservatively. Read some of my vanilla town games. Honestly, though, there is really nothing to be gained from this - if I was scum, I wouldn't be playing to my scum meta.

My previous vanilla softclaim was forced. I was questioned on my prior meta, and I had the following options – a) ignore the question, b) tell them to look at my PR meta and implicitly claim prematurely, or c) tell them to look at my town meta. I felt the third option was the best. I don’t think this behavior is scummy, either – it’s not like I hardclaimed vanilla on Day 1 and then tried to claim PR three days later in lylo.

The problem here is that you didn't have to say anything. If you're a doctor, you just had to answer the question of why you're more aggressive in this game than in that game (where you had a PR). Anyway, as Sanjay points out, those Minis don't answer the question anyway. In 844 you're a mason, in 851 you're a VT, and in 863 you're still in orbit. Gammagooey's (it was him, right?) question was: I saw a game you were in where you were cop and were way less aggressive. Your answer was: Check out my VT meta where I've been just as aggressive. (A totally legit defense at the time -- well, legit enough.) But now that you're claiming doctor, his question comes back in full force. I saw a game you were in where you were cop and were way less aggressive. Your answer now is pointing to a game where you were a Mason, a game where you were VT and a game currently in process? Show him (us) a game where you had a PR like cop or doctor and were just as aggressive.

(And so that we don't all get confused, I'm pretty sure Gammagooey didn't mean aggressive like aggressive scum-hunting. He meant that AlmasterGM was being loud and outspoken in an aggressive and hostile manner. Btw, last I checked, even if you're trying to switch up your PR meta, acting loud and outspoken in a hostile manner is never gonna work if you're a PR.)

[peanutman]

Having read through quickly, and with the PR claim, I will

unvote

for now, and think this through more thoroughly to get back to you all this evening. However, off the top of my head, I tend to agree with PZ that we could still catch him later if he isn't a doc, and he might just get NKed in the end regardless.

[Sanjay]

I'm excited to find out what is responsible for my meteoric rise to fame, Papa Zito.

[MordyS]

Shocker. Peanutman unvotes when he's got a convenient excuse to abandon the bus.

[Sanjay]

peanutman, what do you think is scummy about AlmasterGM?

[Sanjay]

Damn it, MordyS, I got this one.

[Sanjay]

peanutman, early in the game you said this:

I usually try to give people the benefit of the doubt in the early stages of mafia games. Given that the majority of the players are town, chances are when I pick up on something and I question them, they are probably town. Nonetheless, I do question them to get a read, but I don't feel the need to always be aggressive.

Why did you abandon this strategy? This hasn't described your scumhunting at all since you said it.

[Benmage]

Vote Count:
AlmasterGM (4) MordyS, Gammagooey, SpyreX, foilist13
foilist13 (1) cruelty
Archaebob (1) AlmasterGM
Cruelty (1) Papa Zito

Note Voting (4) Sanjay, Muffin, archaebob, PhaerieM, peanutman


I think this vote counts correct..only peaunt unvoted..i was reading and forgetting to be looking for votes...err i mean I am thy mod and thus infallible.

[archaebob]

@ Papa Zito -

I'm curious to know why you find cruelty to be the best lynch today. I think he's suspicious too, but he's far from the scummiest right now. And Sanjay is your #3? Does this mean you don't find foilist13 to be scummy at all?

[PhaerieM]

Vote Count:
AlmasterGM (4) MordyS, Gammagooey, SpyreX, foilist13
foilist13 (1) cruelty
Archaebob (1) AlmasterGM
Cruelty (1) Papa Zito

Note Voting (4) Sanjay, Muffin, archaebob, PhaerieM, peanutman


I think this vote counts correct..only peaunt unvoted..i was reading and forgetting to be looking for votes...err i mean I am thy mod and thus infallible.

Aww. Mod is cute ... and infallible.

& I don't blame you for getting distracted what with the flurry of posts recently (and the general densitude <word?> of the thread)!!

[archaebob]

However, welcome to the land of "Confirmed Town". Population bob. Seriously.

@ Cruelty and Peanutman -

You both have expressed a strong dislike for players posting information about who seems townish in the game, for the reason that it makes it easier for scum to pick out their NK. Yet neither one of you commented at all when Spyrex declared that he thought I was confirmed town.
Why is the above declaration okay, when other attempts to indicate who seems townish have been met with heated resistance from you?