Mini 878: Nouns Mafia - Da game is ovah!

[elvis_knits]

I disagree sens.

Scum already know who isn't suspected. I find the information helpful both in building a consensus and getting discussion going. Asking people why they put a person in neutral or town or scum, and seeing how their mind works. I also think it makes it harder for scum when they have to explain their actions, and when they are held accountable.

I know some people genuinely think as you do, that scum lists are anti-town, so I don't find it necessarily scummy. But I disagree with you.

Vote Count Neuf

Netopalis:

4 (Konowa, SensFan, Iecerint, Boxman)

Boxman:

3 (elvis_knits, Seol, StrangerCoug)

Sens Fan:

2 (mathcam, Netopalis)

Not Voting:

(MacavityLock, Parhelic, Percy)

Deadline:

Friday November 27th, 12:00 PM EST

Prodding Parhelic

.

[Iecerint]

Neto, I don't think going on record with suspicions is necessarily a pressure thing. I think it ties in to what elvis just mentioned; it makes it harder for scum when they have to explain their actions and be held accountable. The easiest way to avoid being accountable is by lurking, not voting, and so forth. The easiest way to make scum accountable is by encouraging everyone to publicly voice their suspicions and participate so that said behavior is evident.

Regarding scumlists, I agree with SF. Town reads are largely irrelevant, as we're (usually) not voting for the most town player. They help scum far more than they help town. Listing suspects is nice, though.

[Netopalis]

Iecrint: I don't feel that town reads are that detrimental, as any mafia with a reasonable amount of experience and intelligence can see who the frontrunners are for the town and who is going to be less dangerous. Additionally, often times, the mafia will pick off players that may not particularly be townish for other means - I've done that myself and won because of it. The town can't do anything to predict or guide the scum kill, therefore the town should do as much as it can to get as much info out there and do its best when players are killed.

[SensFan]

Let us assume I'm a Cop, neto.

If I am forced to make a list, I am forced to either place any Innocents I have on my Town section, or risk really screwing with people's attempts to figure out my targets if I die before I claim.

If everyone has Joey on their Town list, it tells the Scum Joey's probably not lynchable, something that is invaluable to them. If we just post who we find suspicious, there's probably 4-6 people that don't appear on anybody's list, and they could all potentially be lynchable.

[Netopalis]

If you were a cop, we didn't have a cop head start, so that's inapplicable to this vote. Further, due to the earliness of this discussion, the question of unlynchability doesn't really firm up yet.

[SensFan]

You missed the point completely. I was talking about why Town lists are, in my opinion, more useful to Scum than Town, and why I will never ever ever make one.

[Konowa]

Netopalis, you have been trying to slow down the Boxman wagon since it took off. First, you call Seol's reasoning for his vote shaky. If this was endgame and that was the basis of Seol's vote, then I would be inclined to agree with you. However, it was page two, and based on that I believe that the reasoning behind Seol's vote was very solid. Next, you call the wagon questionable based on the speed. Bashing a wagon as a whole and being very vague about it is scummy to me. By addressing the wagon as a whole and not the individual voters on it, I believe this leaves you plenty of wiggle room to justify your actions after the fact.

I am not sure I am buying the whole "oops, I forgot" from Boxman. He confirmed on Thursday, random voted early Friday morning, and then his, effectively, "hi guys" post was late Friday evening. It is entirely possible that he forgot to put it in his watched topics as he said, but the fact that these three posts were made two separate days does not give much justice to him saying "oops".

I am not sure how I feel about cam's unvote of Boxman. My initial reaction was the same as Sens, in that I do not see how Boxman's two quick posts can lead to an unvote. cam's reasoning in 199 makes sense to me also though. It is entirely possible that I do not like the unvote based on differing opinions about game theory, but the unvote just does not sit well.

[Netopalis]

Slowing an early wagon != scummy. It's simply encouraging the town to be more thoughtful and move with deliberation towards their end goal.

[Iecerint]

I think you overreacted to an early wagon in a big way.

[Netopalis]

*shrugs* I disagree.

[elvis_knits]

IMO neto's reaction gets scummy mostly if boxman is scum.

If boxman is town, a scumNeto would probably not be trying to slow the wagon. I mean, maybe to earn town cred, or maybe because he thinks he would say that as town. But most of the time, if neto is scum and boxman is town, neto is not going to try to slow the boxman wagon. Right? I think so.

So, this fact, coupled with boxman appearing but not voting/being useful, makes me think boxman is the way to go at this point.

If boxman can come back here and scum hunt and surprise me, that would be great and I will reevaluate, but the current state is that boxman should go first. Then we see about Neto.

Sens I suspect disagrees. To him and others... what do you think the scum motivation would be to act like Neto if boxman is town?

[Iecerint]

There are some other scummy things that Neto did along the way, like suggest that we discuss the set-up rather than reactions to the wagons. Could be that he somehow really thinks it's a good idea to do as much, though.

[elvis_knits]

Okay, and I agree that setup speculation is not helpful and potentially scummy.

But do you think Neto is could be scum if boxman is town?

[Konowa]

To him and others... what do you think the scum motivation would be to act like Neto if boxman is town?

As you already stated earlier in your post, for town cred. Scum defend town all the time. I do not see a problem with pursuing both Boxman and Net at this time.

Theory tangent, I personally do not like trying to match people together on D1. I find that I scumhunt better if I pursue the people I find the scummiest D1. After flips is when you will see me trying to connect the dots, so to speak.

elvis what do you make of Net reacting to an early third vote on Boxman, but not an early third vote on Sens?

[elvis_knits]

elvis what do you make of Net reacting to an early third vote on Boxman, but not an early third vote on Sens?

I'd say it speaks to Neto being scum with boxman but not sensfan.

[Konowa]

So you [elvis] have no problem with a Net wagon? I lack the words for what I am trying to convey, but I ask because I got the feeling from your 210 that you were trying to create a scenario where Net was not scum.

[elvis_knits]

I still think Neto's allignment is hugely tied to boxman's. Afterall, his reaction to the wagon is the main point against him.

But if boxman is town, I worry less about Netopalis.

I think boxman is scum since he came back to the game and didn't realy do anything or change his vote. (And if so, Neto very potential buddy).

But if Boxman is town, Neto was probably just some townie preaching caution.

I just think lynching neto first is backwards.

[SensFan]

What if I think Neto is scummy regardless of Boxman's alignment?

[Netopalis]

Well, I think you'd have to prove why slowing a random bandwagon is scummy, honestly.

[Konowa]

Well, I think you'd have to prove why slowing a

random

bandwagon is scummy, honestly.

Yikes. Net, what makes you believe that the Boxman wagon was random?

[SensFan]

Well, I think you'd have to prove why slowing a random bandwagon is scummy, honestly.

To be blunt, I wasn't asking you.

When I'm talking about stuff you've done that's scummy to other people, it's not helpful for you to just randomly spam 'Trust me, it wasn't OMGUS!' or 'Slowing the wagon isn't scummy!'.

You could always try scumhunting, though, that'd be a nice change.

[Netopalis]

As I've said 3 times now, because it was based on a single, not particularly scummy statement. I mean, honestly...This is probably the most hot water that anyone has ever gotten into for a simple statement of fact that nobody was saying much. Do you *really* think it benefits scum to do that this much? Do you honestly think that it's such an egregious sin that he needs to get halfway to the lynch by the third page? Sure, it's minorly suspicious, but it's not a huge scumtell. It's not as if he came out attacking someone illogic...Oh, wait. That was someone else. Well, it's not like he decided to start tunnel...Oh, wait. Someone else too. Come to think of it, both sound a lot like SensFan right now.

[Netopalis]

To be blunt, I wasn't asking you.

To be blunt, I could

n't

care less.

Also: See rule 12. The both of you.

- Mod

[Netopalis]

And another thing - if you want to see me scumhunt, check out my quick summary of the game with my suspicious in 144. Nobody really looked into it all that much, though.

[SensFan]

You keep claiming my votes have been illogic, when I've explained them both quite clearly. And your only response to my points against you is "NUH UH"

I find it ironic you claim I am tunneling, when you're yelling at me that I voted Boxman, then jumped to you. Also, I'm not tunelling, I think I found Scum. There's a big difference. Stop OMGUSing.

And continuing to call the Bocman wagon random is denial at best, and very scummy at worst. Just because you think we should sit around and talk about the weather until the Scum feel guilty enough to confess doesn't mean everyone thinks that way.