Mini 878: Nouns Mafia - Da game is ovah!

Netopalis · Post Post #175 (ISO) » Tue Nov 10, 2009 4:46 am

Well, I was watching Boxman's sig, and it didn't include this game until he posted on here, which lends credibility to the "Forgot about the game" thing. Also, there's no *motivation* to forget about it. It's not a scumtell, but I think we should accept the statement as true at face value.

Vote Count Eight

Netopalis:

4 (Konowa, SensFan, Iecerint, Boxman)

Boxman:

3 (elvis_knits, Seol, StrangerCoug)

Sens Fan:

2 (mathcam, Netopalis)

Not Voting:

(MacavityLock, Parhelic, Percy)

Deadline:

Friday November 27th, 12:00 PM EST

SensFan · Post Post #176 (ISO) » Tue Nov 10, 2009 5:09 am

elvis_knits wrote:I find some of sensfan's arguments bad. The OMGUS thing is wrong, since neto was voting him in the first game post after confirms. Sort of hard to argue that's OMGUS!

Are you trying to be funny, or was this actually serious?

Netopalis · Post Post #177 (ISO) » Tue Nov 10, 2009 5:11 am

He IS partially right in the sense that my posts have not been motivated by OMGUS, but by a genuine belief in scumminess.

SensFan · Post Post #178 (ISO) » Tue Nov 10, 2009 5:13 am

First of all, your claim about that means absolutely nothing, given I'm accusing you of OMGUS.
Second of all, even if I believed you weren't lying about that, it still wouldn't confirm that you weren't OMGUSing; it can be subconscious.
Thirdly, she.

MacavityLock · Post Post #179 (ISO) » Tue Nov 10, 2009 6:24 am

elvis_knits wrote:I was already thinking I didn't like how ML posted and unvoted without revoting.

Well, I am LA at the moment. I think it's somewhere between counter-productive and anti-town to leave a vote down when I'm V/LA and don't yet have a good read on the game. I'll actually try to be useful at the end of this week.

elvis_knits · Post Post #180 (ISO) » Tue Nov 10, 2009 6:46 am

ML, I thought that might be the reason but I didn't want to speak for you, or excuse it without seeing what you had to say. I'm fine with it now.

@sensfan... yes, serious. I mean, he's been voting you the entire game, so I don't think it's a reaction to you suspecting/voting him.

Whether or not it's odd for a random vote to turn into a serious vote... I don't know, I've been wondering what I think of that.

SensFan · Post Post #181 (ISO) » Tue Nov 10, 2009 6:57 am

Elvis, I think you're looking too much into the literal definition of OMGUS, rather than the 'spirit of the term', if you will. He placed a random vote on me for my avatar, and only when I pressured him did he start suspecting me.

Netopalis · Post Post #182 (ISO) » Tue Nov 10, 2009 6:59 am

*shrugs* I started suspecting you because you failed to provide logic, not because you weren't attacking me. You claim that your vote on Boxman was not motivated to lynch, nor was it motivated to pressure. Therefore, you are hiding information regarding your motivation from the town, and I'd really like to know why. I've asked you several times and you've refused to respond. In my mind, this is abjectly scummy behavior.

Iecerint · Post Post #183 (ISO) » Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:15 am

I believe he's said that it was not motivated to lynch, but it was a serious vote. I think that should be true of all early-game votes.

elvis_knits · Post Post #184 (ISO) » Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:17 am

SensFan wrote:Elvis, I think you're looking too much into the literal definition of OMGUS, rather than the 'spirit of the term', if you will. He placed a random vote on me for my avatar, and only when I pressured him did he start suspecting me.

You could be right. I have a hard time knowing who neto really suspected until his analysis post, so I don't really know when he started suspecting you. Do you think there is a definite turning point where he started suspecting you as a result of you suspecting him? I'd like to know where you thought his language changed or whatever you can point to.

I'm trying not to tunnel on you, but I realize I may be doing that. So I'm open to discussion.

Netopalis · Post Post #185 (ISO) » Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:21 am

Then what is the value of such a vote, Iec?

SensFan · Post Post #186 (ISO) » Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:23 am

Netopalis wrote:Then what is the value of such a vote, Iec?

Highly scummy reactions like yours.

You can also stop trying to get me to explain that Boxman vote. I will not be doing it in this game, period. We are well past the time when explaining it would help anything.

elvis_knits · Post Post #187 (ISO) » Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:25 am

SensFan wrote:
Netopalis wrote:Then what is the value of such a vote, Iec?
Highly scummy reactions like yours.

You can also stop trying to get me to explain that Boxman vote. I will not be doing it in this game, period. We are well past the time when explaining it would help anything.

How could it hurt, sensfan?

SensFan · Post Post #188 (ISO) » Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:27 am

elvis_knits wrote:
SensFan wrote:Elvis, I think you're looking too much into the literal definition of OMGUS, rather than the 'spirit of the term', if you will. He placed a random vote on me for my avatar, and only when I pressured him did he start suspecting me.
You could be right. I have a hard time knowing who neto really suspected until his analysis post, so I don't really know when he started suspecting you. Do you think there is a definite turning point where he started suspecting you as a result of you suspecting him? I'd like to know where you thought his language changed or whatever you can point to.

I'm trying not to tunnel on you, but I realize I may be doing that. So I'm open to discussion.

He doesn't really mention suspecting me at all until after my series of questions towards him, which turned into suspicions.

As for tunnelling on me, while I don't think you're at that point yet, it's worth noting that in the only game I remember playing with you (Twilight Mafia, which you replaced in to), I seem to recall you being all over me for the entirety of my time in that game, as well. There may be a playstyle clash going on here, or something.

SensFan · Post Post #189 (ISO) » Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:29 am

To add to the first part, he's also suspecting me for a ridiculous reason. I'm not explaining a fairly early vote on the first real wagon. Oh no, how could I possibly do anything so scummy?

That, and he's lying. He claims I said my vote was not intended to lynch Boxman nor was it intended for pressure. I don't believe I've ever said either.

Netopalis · Post Post #190 (ISO) » Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:33 am

SensFan wrote: *why do you keep trying to imply that the votes on Box are for pressure, when I don't think any of us voting him have said anything like that?

SensFan wrote:4) Why do you keep assuming that anyone wants to lynch someone right now?

The two quotes together seem to be an attempt to discredit the idea that the wagon was for either purpose. Further, I want to know *why* you are refusing to do this. Flatly rejecting to explain your reasoning is not a pro-town move.

SensFan wrote: You can also stop trying to get me to explain that Boxman vote. I will not be doing it in this game, period.

This bothers me greatly.

elvis_knits · Post Post #191 (ISO) » Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:39 am

SensFan wrote:
elvis_knits wrote:
SensFan wrote:Elvis, I think you're looking too much into the literal definition of OMGUS, rather than the 'spirit of the term', if you will. He placed a random vote on me for my avatar, and only when I pressured him did he start suspecting me.
You could be right. I have a hard time knowing who neto really suspected until his analysis post, so I don't really know when he started suspecting you. Do you think there is a definite turning point where he started suspecting you as a result of you suspecting him? I'd like to know where you thought his language changed or whatever you can point to.

I'm trying not to tunnel on you, but I realize I may be doing that. So I'm open to discussion.
He doesn't really mention suspecting me at all until after my series of questions towards him, which turned into suspicions.

As for tunnelling on me, while I don't think you're at that point yet, it's worth noting that in the only game I remember playing with you (Twilight Mafia, which you replaced in to), I seem to recall you being all over me for the entirety of my time in that game, as well. There may be a playstyle clash going on here, or something.

YOU WERE SCUM IN THAT GAME!!!!

Actually, I resent you replacing out of that game when I correctly pegged you as scum. I guess it had nothing to do with me suspecting you but you leaving the game led to your replacement making a slip that I considered a towntell, which totally screwed me up.

I realize I may have a bit of bad blood about that, so I'm trying to temper that. I don't want to make a mistake in this game just because of my feelings there. So I am purposely trying to give you a fair shake at this point, and pursue others while I keep an eye on you. I would rather replace out of the game than let feelings from something else influence me, but I don't think it's that bad that I need to take myself out of the game.

Also, I remember a newbie game where you beat me when you were scum. You were actually super-nice to me, and pretty different that you were in twilight or this game. Have you become MUCH more confrontational as a player? Because you were pretty friendly to everyone in the newbie game but that was a long time ago. And as I said, I saw you be confrontational scum in twlight.

Iecerint · Post Post #192 (ISO) » Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:48 am

If anyone votes someone with intent to keep pushing until whoever it was is lynched on page 2 of D1, they are deluded or silly or scum. All votes that early are with a grain of salt. That doesn't mean that they're not serious, though, or that they're appropriately discredited as "just for pressure." I personally don't see a contradiction in SF's characterization of his vote.

SF was scummy in Twilight, but I'm not getting the same vibe now as I got from my readthrough back then. Then again, SF isn't advocating a policy lynch on zwet D1 this time.

Netopalis · Post Post #193 (ISO) » Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:51 am

Just to make it clear - I'm not discrediting votes as "Just for pressure" - I understand that, to some, it is a viable strategy. I just don't see what a person is trying to gain through voting here, that's all.

elvis_knits · Post Post #194 (ISO) » Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:59 am

Iecerint wrote:SF was scummy in Twilight, but I'm not getting the same vibe now as I got from my readthrough back then. Then again, SF isn't advocating a policy lynch on zwet D1 this time.

I find his confrontational attitude similar. I was just looking back at the game and like I think asked him for a scum list and he flat out told me he would never do it and nobody else should either. Basically I should suck it. Which is similar to him being like "I won't ever tell you why I voted boxman. Period." Makes me want to stick my tongue out at him!

It's true he's not trying to policy lynch zwet or anyone else this game though. In twilight I think he was rather lazy and not scum hunting, angrily trying to beat us into policy lynching zwet (which became me!). It was his failure to scum hunt that really got me got me going that game. And... to be fair, I think he is scum hunting this game.

Iecerint · Post Post #195 (ISO) » Tue Nov 10, 2009 8:01 am

Namely, players vote to go on record with their suspicions, to encourage others to participate, to contextualize their posts, and/or to express lynch preference.

Am I misunderstanding that last sentence, or do you not understand why those first 3 things are valuable?

Netopalis · Post Post #196 (ISO) » Tue Nov 10, 2009 8:08 am

1 and 3 are really designed for pressure. 2 is a viable reason, though.

SensFan · Post Post #197 (ISO) » Tue Nov 10, 2009 8:09 am

Re: Twilight (summing this up in one post, to avoid derailing this thread)

I honestly remember playing that just as I would play as Town, since I strongly feel that zwets should be lynched on-sight. And I'm sorry, elvis, if you resent me replacing out. I don't quite have time to reread Day 1 of that game, but from what I recall, I was being attacked fairly severely on a personal level by more than one player.

As far as your view on my playstyle, you're right that it has changed a lot since those early Newb games, I just looked up the one in question, and it was 18 months or so ago. I have found that being more aggressive serves me better in my scumhunting, which may partly be a by-product of the fact I've been in several games where no one really moved the game along. I was more confrontational in that game than I am in most (again, zwets), but I am certainly more aggressive than I once was. I don't try to be confrontational, really, and don't think I have been in this game.

Also, in going over games until I found the Newb game you referenced, I came across Adel's Hydra-Deep-South-etc games. If memory serves, we got along alright in that game (I was the only one posting for Apples).

SensFan · Post Post #198 (ISO) » Tue Nov 10, 2009 8:11 am

elvis_knits wrote:I was just looking back at the game and like I think asked him for a scum list and he flat out told me he would never do it and nobody else should either. Basically I should suck it.

Scumlists are anti-Town, and help Scum far more than they help Town.
Town can get similar information from 'Who do you suspect and why?', whereas scumlists give Scum the information of which players the majority of the Town don't suspect.

mathcam · Post Post #199 (ISO) » Tue Nov 10, 2009 8:22 am

SensFan wrote:While I'm not about to call Boxman a liar, since I've also forgotten about games that didn't make it to my WT, I think its a stretch at best to assume he's telling the truth to the point that you take his excuse as a towntell and unvote him, cam.

It's not like I'm instantly believing that he's telling the truth and am writing down Boxman=Town in my notes. I think it's

plausible

that he's telling the truth, though, enough so that it overrides the not-particularly-strong argument against him. Just like a weak scum-tell is enough to get me all stirred up on day one, a weak probabilistic town-tell is enough to get me to look somewhere else.

SensFan wrote:Anything in particular you want me to address, re: that vote on me?

Nope, not in particular.

Cam