Mini 878: Nouns Mafia - Da game is ovah!

[Netopalis]

Roughly until he's prodded.

Vote Count Sex

Netopalis:

3 (SensFan, Iecerint, Boxman)

Boxman:

3 (mathcam, Seol, StrangerCoug)

Sens Fan:

3 (Konowa, elvis_knits, Netopalis)

Not Voting:

(MacavityLock, Parhelic, Percy)

Deadline:

Friday November 27th, 12:00 PM EST

[SensFan]

You think that purposefully ignoring a game because people pressure you, until you're prodded, is acceptable behaviour?

[Netopalis]

Not acceptable, but not scummy.

[elvis_knits]

This is not the same thing, but I just think that asking for explanation is good. Do you disagree? Why?

I think there's very little in the way of behaviour that is essentially good or bad: it's not what you do, it's how you do it. I didn't object to the questions you were asking Sensfan, I was objecting to

how

you asked them.

I can see how it came off obnoxious. I was poking for information.

Also, it's not so much that I mind things not being explained right away every moment. Sometimes people don't for whatever reason (time, wanting to see reactions, I do it too).

But I mind people not explaining when asked.

Seems like bad faith.

So you believe that everyone has a

responsibility

to explain their entire thought process on demand? I guess that's something we disagree on, then.

Unless it's something that is going to hurt the town, I expect people to explain. I mean, they don't have to, but I will be more suspicious of them if they don't. And I don't need a report of every minute thought they have, but just a general kind of thing. Like a sentence will usually do. I really don't think I'm as psycho about this as you think I am.

---

Now to look at current events...

[elvis_knits]

unvote; vote boxman

My current number two is Iecerint because of his behavior toward boxman/netopalis. He seems to vehemently support boxman wagon, yet never voted boxman, and instead votes/wagons netopalis for thinking the boxman wagon is too fast (or whatever netopalis is saying, too many votes too soon). Makes me question how genuinely he supports the boxman wagon. If he supports the boxman wagon, creating rival wagon is not really productive.

[Iecerint]

Why do you think I "vehemently support" the boxman wagon? Why do you think I'm voting Neto specifically because of his view of the speed of the wagon?

Also, have you ever answered my question about that weird statement you made a long time ago? (I quote it and spell out why I think it's odd in my iso 5.)

[elvis_knits]

I think you support boxman wagon because you're voting netoplais for wanting the wagon to slow. You also helpfully pointed out to people that boxman HAS been online, which is a point against him. Unless you meant it another way? If I misunderstand how you feel about boxman, please tell me your feelings on boxman.

As for your ISO5 post, it's here:

ML -- your italicized bit is my read of the elvis quote I was asking about. Here's said quote:

The boxman wagon does not look random to me. It looks to be based on a weak scumtell. I don't know how others see boxman's post 31, but to me it's boxman posting without content, posting without trying to advance the game or scum hunt, and possibly the worst sin of all -- making my sensfan bandwagon look silly!

At the time, I was assuming that elvis wouldn't criticize the boxman wagon unless she thought he was town. If she thought that both BM and SF were likely scum, her indignation above wouldn't make much sense. So I assumed she thought/was leaning that BM was town and SF was scum.

The last sentence of the quote indicates that there are three things BM has done that elvis believes are worthly of suspicion -- low content, low scumhunting, and trivializing her SF bandwagon. (How BM is responsible for trivializing said wagon is anyone's guess, but that's how the quote reads to me.) The last of these transgressions make little sense, because it's not clear why a town player would actively discredit a wagon on another player, but that's what elvis seems to be claiming.

It looked like SC had already called her out on this, but elvis's hypothetical scumtell made such little sense that I wanted to get clarification from her.

I think I've already answered all this in posts to others. I was confused why you asked these same things again after I had explained. Did you not read my posts?

I didn't mean weak in the sense that it doesn't matter. I think it's entirely appropriate to go after weak tells in the beginning of the game. I didn't mean it as a criticism, only as a means of measurement. The second sentence was to show you what exactly about the post I thought was a weak scum tell. Again, weak doesn't mean "bad" but rather just not strong.

I didn't mean to [poo-poo boxman wagon]. I actually think it has merit. I can understand how it might look like this though since I didn't join the boxman wagon, and since I think I was misunderstood when I said it was a "weak scum tell." Or maybe I used it wrong. I guess weak has too much of a bad connotation. But I just meant it as a relative measurement term and not that there were better scum tells out there at that point.

The only thing I can think of that isn't totally addressed is how I thought boxman trivialized my sensfan wagon. The way he did that is by saying there was nothing going on in the thread. So he's saying my sensfan wagon is inconsequential, not exciting, etc.

[mathcam]

Only that scum would definitely want the rival bandwagon to gain momentum and town might not, depending if they thought boxman was scummy or not. It just seemed like senfan jumped on the chance to vote boxman.

Well, the default argument again that would be to say that a townie Sens would know that he was a townie, but not know that boxman was a townie (even if he suspected he was), so Sens would logically have to choose boxman's wagon as superior to his own.

icerint: Maybe instead of going into auto-question mode (seems a little defensive to me), maybe you could elucidate us as to where exactly you

do

stand on the boxwagon.

Cam

[Iecerint]

There's a difference between me "supporting" the wagon and me "vehemently supporting" the wagon. The former I understand someone thinking, but the latter I do not. Elvis claimed the latter, which is relevant because there's no reason for a town player to overestimate another player's support for a wagon. I wanted to know why she did so. (For example, I may have missed a phrase of mine that implied "vehement support," she may have misread something, etc.) As is, I'm still not sure why she chose the word she did. All my "support" for the boxman wagon has been pretty indirect.

Thanks for clarifying the "trivialized" issue. I see what you meant. Regarding the other, the fact that by "weak scumtell" you actually meant "legitimate scumtell" slipped by me the first time. It seems like disingenuous word choice to me. When I call something a "weak scumtell," I am typically discrediting it.

I think boxwagon was originally pretty silly (nothing wrong with that; it was page 2), but his subsequent disappearance has made it somewhat credible.

[Iecerint]

Cam, you have implied that it is town-to-null to quickly vote the other wagon if you are one of two wagons. This differs from what I understand to be common knowledge. If necessary, could you clarify your perspective on this issue?

[Iecerint]

EBWOP: Oh, follow-up on the elvis business. elvis, did you think that BM was intentionally trivializing your SF wagon, or just that that was a consequence of his post?

[elvis_knits]

There's a difference between me "supporting" the wagon and me "vehemently supporting" the wagon. The former I understand someone thinking, but the latter I do not. Elvis claimed the latter, which is relevant because there's no reason for a town player to overestimate another player's support for a wagon. I wanted to know why she did so.

I think you're splitting hairs with your reaction to my use of "vehement", but I guess this is "nouns" mafia.

IMO the neto wagon is a reaction to him wanting the boxman wagon to slow. So I would only expect you to wagon neto if you like the boxman wagon a lot and don't want to see it slowed.

EBWOP: Oh, follow-up on the elvis business. elvis, did you think that BM was intentionally trivializing your SF wagon, or just that that was a consequence of his post?

Possibly. It's an option. It would imply they are both scum. Much in the same way that boxman voting netopalis, after netopalis voted sensfan, was possibly boxman protecting sensfan.

(Also every time you write "BM" I think battlemage and it confuses me!)

[SensFan]

IMO the neto wagon is a reaction to him wanting the boxman wagon to slow. So I would only expect you to wagon neto if you like the boxman wagon a lot and don't want to see it slowed.

I disagree.

I still want Boxman to get back here, and to contribute. But regardless of his alignment, or my thoughts toward it, Neto's reaction to the wagon is way scummy.

[elvis_knits]

I think neto is being entirely consistent in the way he thinks we should be playing this game. He doesn't like random bandwagons and he seems to want to be super careful. On a personal level I disagree with him, but I don't know that he has any ulterior motive for what he's saying. If you think so, I think it's good to keep questioning/pressuring him. But it's not significant to me on it's own.

I mean, I don't plan on following neto's advice and keeping boxman at 2 votes until he is prodded. That seems like a pretty arbitrary plan that will only slow the game down. But I'm also not going to divide my effort and go after neto when his issues could totally be playstyle, not when I still think boxman is scummy and needs pressuring.

[Konowa]

Back. Reading everything I have missed over the weekend. When I get some pictures developed I will post links too.

[Konowa]

Oops, had an assignment deadline and completely forgot about this.

/confirming now, apologies for the delay D:

This combined with the subsequent disappearance does not sit well with me so far.

Townvibes from Seol.

Unvote

for now.

I understand the reasoning for the unvote, but the fact that you have made no comment on the Boxman wagon does not sit right. What are your [Percy] opinions on both Boxman and Netopalis?

Alright...I can see the point about going with minimal tells on day one. That being said, I really think we need to hear from Boxman a bit more before continuing - he's at 3 votes and we're not even past page 4.

This really feels like you are trying to show support for the Boxman wagon without having to place a vote on him. Why are you so concerned Boxman has three votes at this point?

unvote;

vote Netopalis

Boxman needs to start talking. As does Parhelic.

[Netopalis]

Konowa: I'm concerned because these 3 votes arose out of nowhere within 5 posts of each other in response to what is, at best, a marginal scumtell.

[elvis_knits]

Neto, please give some thoughts on other players... what you have seen as scummy or questionable so far in the game?

It will help me judge your allignment and see if this is just a playstyle thing of yours or not. I want to hear you talk about what you DO think is scummy instead of just preaching caution.

[Konowa]

Netopalis, correct me if I am wrong. You find nothing wrong with any of the votes on Boxman, other than the speed at which they occurred?

[Netopalis]

Sure. I'll post scumtells on a page by page basis, then post a summary of all players at the end.

Page 1: Nothing to speak of.
Page 2: Boxman's post is a light scumtell. Not the greatest post in the world. I still don't like the quick bandwagon that arose from it.
Page 3: Seol taking my statements to their most extreme meanings is iffy. I don't know that it's a scumtell, but it's not my preferred style of play. I really don't like Sensfan's admission here that he didn't read the votecount before voting. Seems like it's intentional carelessness. Sensfan and Seol seem to be sticking closely together, but this should only be kept in mind for a possible later day evaluation.
Page 4: StrangerCoug shows some solid, level-headeded reasoning here. Elvis is being forced to explain a lot of things, but is this backpedaling or is it just a response from constant attacks? I'm not sure. I think it's probably the latter.
I also don't like Macavity's 95, in which he posts suspicions without really explaining or backing them up. Seems scummy to me, and even if town, it's the easy way out.
Page 5: Sensfan jumps on the bandwagon without a lot of explanation and defends his original vote on Boxman as being neither for pressure nor for pushing towards a lynch. Just putting a vote out there. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me, and I find that in both cases he was trying to go with the flow of the town and nudge them in the direction of their current inertia.
Page 6: Iecrint does seem a bit defensive, as Mathcam pointed out. I don't think it's really that scummy, though - a lot of players react in this fashion.


Individual player analysis:
Boxman - I'd really like to get him back in here to hear his opinions.

Mod: Can we get a prod on him?

I do find it suspicious that he's not shown up, but he's not my biggest scum suspect at this point. That may change.
elvis_knits - I think, overall, he's mostly townie. Sure, there were a few moments where he came under scrutiny, but I think that, again, this is not necessarily a scum tell.
Iecerint - His incessant questioning is annoying and potentially scummy. Alternatively, it could be a playstyle. I'm going to reserve judgment on him until I can see a bit better where he plans on going with all of it.
Konowa - Very little to analyze, really. No comment as of yet.
MacavityLock - Has made several posts which attempt to provide suspicion without content. In my mind, this is scummy and counterproductive. Were we to follow his style, we'd all just be sitting around saying who we suspect and never really building a consensus.
mathcam - I feel that Mathcam's play is fairly reasonable. We may disagree on points of game theory, but I think that he's pretty solidly in my town list.
Parhelic - Has really said nothing. Potentially scummy for that, more likely just inactive.
Percy - Like Parhelic, he's made only 3 posts, none of which are terribly useful. Potentially scummy. Unlike Parhelic, Percy doesn't have as much of an excuse since he's played much more and is currently modding.
SensFan - I find his play inconsistent and his nudging towards extremes to be questionable. In my mind, he's probably the scummiest of all players currently.
Seol - Seol...is a tough read. Potentially scummy, but probably town in my mind. His play is different from SensFan's in the sense that he does back up a lot of his statements with reasoning.
StrangerCoug - Very pro-town and level headed. Not on my list of D1 suspects.


To summarize:

Likely scum:
Boxman
MacavityLock
Sensfan

Inactive:
boxman
Percy
Parhelic

Neutral:
Seol
Konowa

Pro-town:
Elvis (halfway between Neutral and Pro-town)
Mathcam
Strangercoug

[Netopalis]

Konowa: I find the speed at which the town jumped

to such a weak scumtell

to be questionable. I mean, really...the entirety of the reasoning behind the votes is a single post which reads, and I quote:

Wee. Not much going on is there?

[Netopalis]

Also, error in my final summary. Boxman should appear only in the inactive category - I made a bit of an error when copying the front post and dividing it up.

[mathcam]

Cam, you have implied that it is town-to-null to quickly vote the other wagon if you are one of two wagons. This differs from what I understand to be common knowledge. If necessary, could you clarify your perspective on this issue?

I hate to wade too deeply into very general waters here, but in short, I think that self-preservation is a null (not town-to-null) tell. The reasoning behind this is the "default argument" from my previous post -- and it is "default" in precisely the sense that I would use it until some more compelling argument contradicted it. In fact, typically much more intriguing is the case in which a bandwagonnee

doesn't

jump on an up-and-coming alternative bandwagon.

In this particular case, I don't think that either player was under enough pressure to even suspect Sens' vote was made out of self-preservation, but even if it was and he clearly acknowledge it, I would probably consider it a null-tell and a reasonable play.

Cam

[SensFan]

What the hell are you talking about, Neto?

How can you possibly claim I'm going with the flow, or trying to be subtle, when I've been one of the most outspoken people so far?

I'm much more happy with my vote on Neto now, after his post contains some nice OMGUS, and in his top3 scummiest people is Boxman, yet he wants no more than 2 votes on him.

[Netopalis]

Also, error in my final summary. Boxman should appear only in the inactive category - I made a bit of an error when copying the front post and dividing it up.