Mini 863 - Space Station Mafia: GAME OVER - EVERYONE'S DEAD

[charlatan]

I'm saying it hasn't been made

I'm afraid I'll simply have to direct your attension to the multiple times that I have explained why Messiah is extremely likely scum. It's a pretty simple "case" but, really, that's a virtue.

A case is meaningless if you're the only one that buys into it. That's my entire point. "Read what I wrote before" (which you have now said multiple times) does nothing to increase the likelihood of a Messiah bandwagon. Do you honestly believe I haven't read those posts, or are you just being condescending? It's one or the other.

You're doing nothing to sway anyone, which is

not

what I expect to see from a townie who actually truly believes that they know who to lynch.

Sorry you don't like my play today, but I believe that your opinion there is much more rooted in your disagreement with my Messiah case than anything else at all.

I don't "like" or "dislike" anything in particular. I am pointing out a perceived discrepancy.

Examples of silly accusations of WIFOM, rolefishing, etc. include many posts by CooLDoG... but let's just say that I would be happy if I never saw people using words and phrases like WIFOM, Tunnel Vision, rolefishing, blah blah blah, again. Not that I have problems with the underlying concepts in most cases, but people would gain so much from actually typing out the reason why what someone is doing means that they are part of the informed minority trying to get the town killed!

Sometimes it's nice to not have to over explain things, but if that's your preference:

Your

tunnel vision

apparent desire to focus only on Messiah is detrimental to the town in that there are more players than you and Messiah in the game, and holding a vote somewhere where a lynch is unlikely to happen is, at best, throwing away your vote. It is almost non-participatory to largely ignore other cases in the game. Furthermore, it is a fine scum tactic to manufacture a strong but unpopular conviction that one player is scum in order to avoid the suspicion of participating in townie bandwagons while giving the appearance of doing otherwise.

But really, all this because I think it's a bit sketchy to call for a deadline instead of giving real comments on the larger bandwagons is telling in and of itself.

[milkshake]

I really don't understand your conviction that voting for a deadline as the mod said we could is scummy. Honestly, even just from the perspective of us being part of the same game, that's low and unhelpful. The rest of your comments are better than that...

Do you honestly believe I haven't read those posts, or are you just being condescending? It's one or the other.

Probably both. You haven't told me what you think about them, at least. And this is already getting awfully close to being personal. Why must people always do that on this website! Arg.

Your tunnel vision apparent desire to focus only on Messiah is detrimental to the town in that there are more players than you and Messiah in the game, and holding a vote somewhere where a lynch is unlikely to happen is, at best, throwing away your vote. It is almost non-participatory to largely ignore other cases in the game. Furthermore, it is a fine scum tactic to manufacture a strong but unpopular conviction that one player is scum in order to avoid the suspicion of participating in townie bandwagons while giving the appearance of doing otherwise.

I have given my opinion on other bandwagons. Furthermore, I just made a nice little post about how the Sposh/AlMaster thing is not based on scummyness at all, which should be interpretted as a big thumbs down on those wagons.

CooLDoG I think is a bit scummy. As he admit himself, he is overly concerned with doing the most "towny" thing at any given moment as a scum (with a particular play style) would be. No, I'm not saying that just because he admits it himself, but, yes, I do acknowledge that no claim to that effect can be uninfluenced by the self-admission.

You're doing nothing to sway anyone, which is not what I expect to see from a townie who actually truly believes that they know who to lynch.

So basically, obviously you're right that my vote has been sitting on Messiah. Heck, it's technically been sitting there almost since

the very beginning of day one!

But that's not a bad thing. Messiah is scum because of the informed hiphop's telling reaction to her. I'm not a cop, I don't have a guilty investigation, I can't be sure about it. But I would like everyone to get off their severely ungrounded wagons on Sposh and AlMaster, and hop on Messiah's, Empking's, or CooLDoG's.

The think with empking is this (this happened today, by the way, Charlatan, and involved me...)

4. Do you deny that Hoopla mislead the town in her softclaim?
5. Do you deny that Hoopla mislead the town, derailing the wagon on scum?
6. do you think its a leap to say: Hoopla mislead the town in orsder to derail the wagon on scum?

Remember that? Remember how strange it was?

And CooLDoG's I already talked about in this post...

And Messiah's, well, we can even look all the way back to day one for that one, to a theory of mine that I'm still forwarding, as conceded as it may be to do so...

1. hiphop town, messiah town: hiphop didn't know, and was just being inconsistant or weird.

I doubt it, but it conceivably fits.

2 (or 1b). hiphop town, messiah scum: The same, obviously.

Again, I sort of doubt it, but it conceivably fits.

3. hiphop scum, messiah town: hiphop knew that messiah was town, and yet decided to defend her just in case the wagon went all the way to a lynch, even though jumping on was low risk because of the Hoopla thing and because many other people were.

Extremely unlikely.

4. (or 3b). hiphop scum, messiah scum: The inverse of 3. hiphop knew that messiah was scum, and knew that his buddy getting lynched day one would mean bad things. He saw that the wagon was just formed by people with nothing to lose, not people who were particularly attached to it, and thus saw an opening for his argument to get people off of it, which was very desirable to him. His (in my opinion inconsistant) behavior is explained, because he knew he should argue, but couldn't easily create an argument with a pro-town motivation.

Fits well.

[milkshake]

Hah,

conceited

not conceded. Also on the note of conceitedness, I should note that the condescending thing (while possibly true... condescending happens alot on message boards) was the part that I was talking about at "And this is already getting awfully close to being personal. Why must people always do that on this website! Arg."

Seriously it's true though. You definitely don't qualify, Charlatan, but people are such jerks to eachother here sometimes!

[charlatan]

I really don't understand your conviction that voting for a deadline as the mod said we could is scummy. Honestly, even just from the perspective of us being part of the same game, that's low and unhelpful.

I never said voting for a deadline is scummy. That would be absurd. I think it's slightly suspicious to chime in with a post about having deadlines instead of, say, saying something that will actually affect what's happening in the game.

Regardless, I mostly wanted to get you to comment even just a little more on other wagons. The entire problem with your Messiah theory (and the reason I have not spent much energy discussing it) is this:

3. hiphop scum, messiah town: hiphop knew that messiah was town, and yet decided to defend her just in case the wagon went all the way to a lynch, even though jumping on was low risk because of the Hoopla thing and because many other people were. Extremely unlikely.

You say "extremely unlikely", I say "extremely likely." Staying off of the easy bandwagon that was based largely on what he would have known was a lie from Hoopla was an easy, easy way to get townie points.

[lobstermania]

Day Two Vote Count #7

- as of post 528

CooLDoG (3):

Empking, Peabody, charlatan

Sposh (3):

AlmasterGM, Messiah, HowardRoark

Empking (2):

Hoopla, CooLDoG

AlmasterGM (1):

Sposh

Hoopla (1):

NewAgeWarrior

Messiah (1):

milkshake

Not Voting (0):

Reminder: With 11 alive it takes 6 votes to lynch.

[CooLDoG]

@char, That is how milkshake playes, he tv's one person till a lynch happens, read the meta on him, he might switch to me for this post...

[Hoopla]

@Hoopla: How do you feel about a Sposh lynch?

I wouldn't lose sleep over a Sposh lynch, but I've stated multiple times that Empking needs to be dead.

[milkshake]

I never said voting for a deadline is scummy. That would be absurd.

Then we agree! -.-

You say "extremely unlikely", I say "extremely likely." Staying off of the easy bandwagon that was based largely on what he would have known was a lie from Hoopla was an easy, easy way to get townie points.

Right, that would be the other side of the issue. But in order for that to start to make sense, he would have had to think that the wagon was going all the way to a lynch, which I at least saw pretty clearly it wasn't. Also, even if it did go all the way to a lynch, hopping on a bandwagon, townie or not, that's based on claimed role information isn't scummy at all even if it lynches a town player, since you get free scum from the person with the claimed role information (Hoopla) and a 1-for-1 townie/scum trade is great.

[charlatan]

Right, that would be the other side of the issue. But in order for that to start to make sense, he would have had to think that the wagon was going all the way to a lynch, which I at least saw pretty clearly it wasn't.

Not really. I'm trying to look at it from hiphop's point of view, not what you would do if you were in that situation.

If he knew Hoopla was lying, he would've known that she'd almost certainly have to come clean that day whether it was going to lynch or not, and hiphop made a habit of arguing for over-cautious voting -- things like saying an errant bandwagon could lead to a scum victory, talking about a lack of concrete evidence on Day 1 -- a lot of which he knew he was going to be proven at least partially right about when the wagon derailed. What's more, it helps setup Hoopla as a potential lynch, makes a buddy of Messiah, and he gets the townie cred for staying off the wagon. It doesn't have to go to a lynch to be a questionable wagon as long as it comes out that the wagon was built on a lie, which it was always going to.

Also, even if it did go all the way to a lynch, hopping on a bandwagon, townie or not, that's based on claimed role information isn't scummy at all even if it lynches a town player, since you get free scum from the person with the claimed role information (Hoopla) and a 1-for-1 townie/scum trade is great.

That's pretty simplistic. What if the wagon had gone to lynch without Hoopla revealing her gambit? What if she were as sure as you are that Messiah was scum and decided to roll the dice? What if, what if?

Just because something is safe and/or easy for scum to do doesn't necessarily make it a good play for them. Also, I don't think that was a safe wagon to vote on at all, since it was almost certainly going to turn out to be BS from the start.

hiphop voted or FoS'd every single non-lurker player in the game except for two, if I recall: Messiah and yourself. Just sayin'.

[milkshake]

Hm, so you're arguing that hiphop knew that Messiah was gambitting, instead thinking she had true role information on scum, or had false role information on town. I guess I'm starting to see how him thinking any of those three could be the case, although it is weird how they all are supposed to explain the same behavior.

Also, even if it did go all the way to a lynch, hopping on a bandwagon, townie or not, that's based on claimed role information isn't scummy at all even if it lynches a town player, since you get free scum from the person with the claimed role information (Hoopla) and a 1-for-1 townie/scum trade is great.

That's pretty simplistic. What if the wagon had gone to lynch without Hoopla revealing her gambit? What if she were as sure as you are that Messiah was scum and decided to roll the dice? What if, what if?

Well wait, this is not explained by your what ifs, it is also explained by your argument that hiphop knew Hoopla was gambitting. And even if he did, that certainly doesn't clear Messiah! You're not saying it does, are you? It just brings her back to the neutral territory (and the possibility of him not know slides her slightly toward scummy territory again. I guess maybe could have partially thought, like most of us did, that Hoopla might be gambitting, and simply decided to act on that, while at the same time thinking about what would happen if she was legit. That's the most likely.)

Still happy with Messiah, Empking, or CD here.

[milkshake]

"instead thinking" should be "instead of thinking."

[charlatan]

Hm, so you're arguing that hiphop knew that Messiah was gambitting, instead thinking she had true role information on scum, or had false role information on town. I guess I'm starting to see how him thinking any of those three could be the case, although it is weird how they all are supposed to explain the same behavior.

I think he thought the same thing more than one of us did, which is that she didn't have any information at all and that, in time, it would become public knowledge, and that he could use that to his advantage. For most of us, whether Hoopla was lying or not was an educated guess. For hiphop, it would've been obvious.

And even if he did, that certainly doesn't clear Messiah! You're not saying it does, are you? It just brings her back to the neutral territory (and the possibility of him not know slides her slightly toward scummy territory again.

No, nothing clears Messiah. Messiah is by no means the most pro-town player in this game. But how anyone can be so sure about Messiah (who is barely even present in the game) is scum is beyond me, as is why that person would not pursue other avenues of investigation as well in light of the fact that there is no Messiah bandwagon at this time.

[milkshake]

Well, you can rest assured that even though I still believe Messiah is nontrivially more than 25% likely to be scum, I am perfectly happy with other "avenues" as well. To recap, Between Empking and CooLDoG, I'd go for Empking at the moment. Actually I think Peabody might be mafia, too (as I mentioned on day 1, and am just now realizing again). This is just a feeling based on his extremely measured play, not something based on fact.

I think he thought the same thing more than one of us did, which is that she didn't have any information at all and that, in time, it would become public knowledge, and that he could use that to his advantage. For most of us, whether Hoopla was lying or not was an educated guess. For hiphop, it would've been obvious.

Fair enough.

[Sposh]

I'll try to answer all the questions!

I'm not sure what the scummiest thing I did the whole game is. I think I tend to be a little too "under the radar" when I play which is what people have said about me before. I don't tend to bring up new suspects unless I have a really strong suspicion. I just look at what has been said about players and analyze THAT... so if that's scummy, then that's my answer!

Howard, I think I'm being made into an easy target due to my low level of activity and inexperience at this game. So I do think if my wagon continues, there is bound to be scum on it. I wouldn't be surprised if there already was scum on it!

I think the best lynch for today is Messiah.

[milkshake]

I think the best lynch for today is Messiah.

Then vote her, invite all your freinds, and vote her again. Geez!

[AlmasterGM]

I think the best lynch for today is Messiah.

Why?

[CooLDoG]

Worldn't mind a sposh lynch ether, or an empking. Have to go fast, more latter.

[Messiah]

I apologize for not having posted the last few days, I've had no access to a computer and posting on my phone is a pain.

---

The case on CooLDoG is decent, and I considered most of the points brought up against him before voting Sposh, but I think Sposh is significantly more likely to be scum.

@Sposh: In post 510 you were going to decide between voting CooLDoG and Empking, what changed since then?

[HowardRoark]

Sposh's current vote is on AlmasterGM. Post 483 is all about AlmasterGM. Your next two posts . . .

I'm really torn between Empking and CooLDoG.

I don't tend to bring up new suspects unless I have a really strong suspicion. {snip} I think the best lynch for today is Messiah.

Wow. Please explain the changes; so many suspects so little stated suspicion.

@charlatan: In 436 you found Sposh a bit scummy. How would you feel about moving to vote him?

@AlmasterGM: Did you miss my 522?

I would like everyone to get off their severely ungrounded wagons on Sposh and AlMaster

Side note: There is (and was) only one vote on AlmasterGM at this time. What specifically do you find "ungrounded" about the Sposh wagon?

[milkshake]

@HowardRock, your point that hiphop and Sposh were connected in Day 1 isn't bad. But I really don't think scum would betray their buddies like that. I mean, how stupid do you think hiphop is? That's the only OK reason to vote Sposh, though. AlMaster's vote seems to be based on the fact that they're arguing, and Messiah just mentioned both the hiphop/Sposh connection and decided to criticize some random posts too. (Covering all her bases, I guess. "Cases" are scummy. What a scummy player. )

[charlatan]

@charlatan: In 436 you found Sposh a bit scummy. How would you feel about moving to vote him?

I am not interested in doing that at this time, though it could change. I do still think he's scummy, but as I said before, I am less confident there than with others.

[Sposh]

I meant, I'm torn between which one of them is scum. I still think one of CD/Emp is scum... but my feelings towards Messiah from yesterday still stand.

[Empking]

I meant, I'm torn between which one of them is scum. I still think one of CD/Emp is scum... but my feelings towards Messiah from yesterday still stand.

Top three suspects?

[Peabody]

I would have to say I initially disagreed with Charlatan's insistence that milkshake changes his vote. I believe if milkshake thinks Messiah is scum, there is no reason he should change his vote. The entire town could be wrong about a suspect, and jumping on that bandwagon wouldn't be right for him if he believes messiah is undoubtedly scum.

However, Charlatan saved himself with

Regardless, I mostly wanted to get you to comment even just a little more on other wagons.

This is what I agree with. Milkshake, I believe that although you should keep your vote on Messiah, you should also comment on other wagons as well.

----
If a better case presents itself, I would be willing to hop wagons to Sposh, but I'm pretty sure of CooLDoG's wagon. I will most likely keep my vote there.

236, is wring because if I didn't want my "buddy" lynched then I woulld have gine with the other and voted hoopla.

Alright, I grant you this. Even though this is WIFOM, it actually is a good rebuttal. However: I would like to argue WIFOM with WIFOM. Cooldog, wouldn't you say its possible that you kept your vote on hiphop because it was obvious hiphop would be the one lynched? I don't think hoopla would have been lynched day 1.

Speaking of Hoopla, I'm not liking her newfound one-liners. She was doing very well in day 1, but that passion just seemed to have gone out of her.

[CooLDoG]

No we could have lynched hoop for that lie, or we could have lynched sposh, or even AGM (for sorta lurking not posting). But hands down Hiphop was the best lynch.