Mini 870: Melee mafia. (Mod Abandoned)

[Yosarian2]

no alts here. Just a horny little school girl that's fond of logic puzzles.

Great, now I have this intense desire to meet drow...

Psst. It's a trap.

[farside22]

I feel like people missed the I was sick for 3 days and the mechanic talks is getting over my head. I wanted to reread one more time because I didnt' really get much from my read except for the mechanics talk. Although it's helpful it's not helping with the scum hunting.
I'm working on my read through today.
I'm now 3 pages behind this game just for one day. Yikes!

[Kast]

@TM-
-Making an irrelevant attack on playstyle instead of answering the question is scummy.

Voting to emphasize one's suspicions is not synonymous with choosing a lynch candidate through voting.

Voting for who you are suspicious of IS voting for your lynch candidate.

When arguing semantics, use what the person actually wrote instead of making stuff up. I thought you liked quotes?

Only attacking the majority candidate is a similar but independent issue.

-The town was discussing whether players should be allowed to send actions by PM. You claim it should be allowed. You did not say that when asked and implied the opposite. This is inconsistent.

I thought it would turn scumhunting stale, if everyone was required to follow majority rule in combat, as scum would have no choice but to follow, thus making sniffing out scum based on melee actions impossible. Essentially leaving all scumhunting to the 3 discussion days.

We are allowed to discuss in melee phase, but if we're supposed to decide the lynch in the first 3 days, what is there to talk about?

Thanks for finally answering.

The answer doesn't hold water. Whether everyone should attack the majority candidate was a separate question.

Who said anything about deciding the lynch in the first 3 days?

Nobody

scum would have no choice but to follow, thus making sniffing out scum based on melee actions impossible.

Does this mean you expect scum will reveal themselves if we allow rogues?

Assuming scum are stupid is bad play.

@Yosarian2-
-It's not that ambiguous. It directly answers the question that an action sent by PM instead of in-thread post could still be visible to the town. What matters is whether the action would be seen by town.

If someone has an action whose results are hidden, then even if it is posted in-thread, nobody will see the results.

5) Actions can be either PMed to me, or posted in bold in the thread. I will then do all the subsequent dice rolls, and

post the outcomes in the thread. As soon as an action is resolved the next player can play his turn.

At least two people will know when a turn ends. Sounds like everyone will know.

-I can use a different word. Someone used it earlier and it seems pretty apt.

@MOD-

Is a standard attack an action that other players would see?

@Grover/KY-
D1 is traditionally plagued by weak cases. This is true regardless of whether there is mechanics discussion.

@KY-
-To be clear, have you reversed your position regarding ending mechanics discussion?
--If so, what made you change your mind?

@Grover-
-Now that you have a better understanding, do you still believe it is okay for players to be rogues (attack non-majority targets)?
--If not, are you willing to punish players who engage in this behavior?

@Nuwen-
This stood out on re-read:

anyone proposing "every man for himself" damage is obvscum

Dealing damage independent of consensus is scummy enough to become a policy kill in this setup.

To be clear, does "every man for himself" damage mean each player attack his own suspect? If so, do you still hold to these statements?
How does this interact with these players {chamber, Grover, SB, TM}?

[Yosarian2]

@Yosarian2-
-It's not that ambiguous. It directly answers the question that an action sent by PM instead of in-thread post could still be visible to the town. What matters is whether the action would be seen by town.

If someone has an action whose results are hidden, then even if it is posted in-thread, nobody will see the results.

5) Actions can be either PMed to me, or posted in bold in the thread. I will then do all the subsequent dice rolls, and

post the outcomes in the thread. As soon as an action is resolved the next player can play his turn.

(nods) I saw that rule, I just wasn't 100% sure if "post the outcomes" means that the mod will just post "Kast takes 4 damage" or if he will also post who makes the attack.

Well, we'll find out for sure soon enough.

At least two people will know when a turn ends. Sounds like everyone will know.

Yeah, probably.

[Kast]

Btw-in case this helps, here are some questions I asked prior to the game starting with TSQ's reply. I encourage any skeptics to ask him the same questions.

-Unless a player has an ability that says otherwise, the actions that we take (attempt) in the melee phase will be public knowledge.

(actions can either be PMed to me or posted in thread. In some cases they will not be things immediately apparent to other players, but all actions otherwise will be known to all other members of the town.

--All players will see the dice rolls when we try to attack someone else. I assume this includes the bonuses and any effects of feats.

(Die rolls will all be posted in thread)

--I am assuming that the current HP of each player will not be announced in this phase.

(No stats will be revealed by me, except through trial and error I.e. I rolled a 13 but didn’t hit X player.

--I assume that a player dying in the melee phase immediately puts the day into twilight (although this may be redundant since you do the dice rolling and can end the day at the same time you do the roll).

(yes)

[TonyMontana]

Does this mean you expect scum will reveal themselves if we allow rogues?

Assuming scum are stupid is bad play.

With that logic, no scum has ever been caught based on votes.

[Kast]

@TM-
-Do you think giving straight answers hurts the town?

-Assuming you meant "yes"; how does allowing a rogue to attack his suspect more effectively indicate affiliation than normal voting?

To be clear, sounds like you believed that prohibiting rogue behavior removed

one

source of potential scumtells. Is this correct?

Did you think the damage from losing these potential tells was significant enough to outweigh all benefits gained from it? Please explain.

[TonyMontana]

@TM-
-Do you think giving straight answers hurts the town?

Do you think straight questions do?

-Assuming you meant "yes"; how does allowing a rogue to attack his suspect more effectively indicate affiliation than normal voting?

To be clear, sounds like you believed that prohibiting rogue behavior removed

one

source of potential scumtells. Is this correct?

Did you think the damage from losing these potential tells was significant enough to outweigh all benefits gained from it? Please explain.

Will you follow consensus, if the consensus is to kill you? If not, will you then try to do damage on your prime suspect?

[Kast]

Do you think straight questions do?

Does this mean yes?

Straight questions can be very helpful to the town.

-If the consensus is to kill me, then I will attack my prime suspect. As I said before, this is how any townie should react. Are you trying to gauge whether you should get your buddies to attack me?

-Why aren't you answering my questions?

[TonyMontana]

Then why shouldn't I help you, if i believe you to be town?

[Thestatusquo]

Melee phase 1:


Order of initiative:
Yosarian
Kast
Spyrex (still looking for a replacement, sorry he will be skipped in melee)
Chamber
Kirbyoshi
Grover
Snowbunny
Farside
Nuwen
Tajo
Drow
tonymontana

[Kast]

@TM-
Your statement is ambiguous.

To clarify:
-Are you saying that anyone who thinks the majority candidate is a townie should help that candidate by attacking the candidate's target?
-Are you saying that allowing players to act as rogues helps my belief that a townie majority lynch candidate should attack his prime suspect?
-Something else?

My guess is you meant the former:
The difference between the majority candidate (MC) going rogue and a random townie (RT) going rogue is that MC knows his own affiliation. Lynching guaranteed town is worse than lynching non-guaranteed town.

The RT should not know that MC is town. If RT is a cop and knows MC is town, then he should exercise judgment on whether to help prevent the lynch.

[Kast]

@All-
To be clear, I will delay submitting any action until we reach a majority consensus. My guess is that Yosarian2 will do this as well.

[Kirbyoshi]

@Kast and Tony: This is not a questions-only game.

D1 is traditionally plagued by weak cases. This is true regardless of whether there is mechanics discussion.

Then could you help me on why Tajo thinks I'm so darn scummy?

To be clear, have you reversed your position regarding ending mechanics discussion?

No, I haven't. I stated my position, and it seems like majority is against it. If everyone else wants to continue discussing game mechanics, go right ahead. I'm going to scumhunt.

Just noticed Nuwen has been lurking recently. I'll see if he/she(?) answers Kast's questions.

[Yosarian2]

Ok, I'm going first. Anyway, I'm willing to wait for some kind of consensuss before I make my attack, although if this drags on for too long, I might not wait for a "true" majority; sometimes games without a deadline can drag on forever and just stall out, and I think that's very bad for the town, so I don't want that happen here.

So, anyway, let's get this game going. I want everyone to say, right now, exactly who they would most want to see lynched today, if they had to pick right at this moment.

[Kirbyoshi]

Kast, I don't think MC should ever attack him/herself. I know that if I'm ever the MC (which is quite possible), I won't attack myself.

[Kirbyoshi]

@Yos: I'm already voting for Tony, so if I had to pick someone right now, it would be him.

[TonyMontana]

@TM-
Your statement is ambiguous.

To clarify:
-Are you saying that anyone who thinks the majority candidate is a townie should help that candidate by attacking the candidate's target?
-Are you saying that allowing players to act as rogues helps my belief that a townie majority lynch candidate should attack his prime suspect?
-Something else?

My guess is you meant the former:
The difference between the majority candidate (MC) going rogue and a random townie (RT) going rogue is that MC knows his own affiliation. Lynching guaranteed town is worse than lynching non-guaranteed town.

The RT should not know that MC is town. If RT is a cop and knows MC is town, then he should exercise judgment on whether to help prevent the lynch.

And if RT is not cop, but just feels very strongly MC is not scum?

[Kast]

@TM-
He should realize he might be mistaken, suck it up, and play nice with the rest of the town. Town still gains information from death of MC, choice of RT to not attack MC, and choice of all who did attack MC.

Same as we'd learn from a standard lynch with additional info on anyone who attacks where they didn't vote, or doesn't attack where they did vote.

If town has agreed not to do rogue attacks, we KNOW that any rogues are guaranteed scum.

@Yosarian2-
My vote is on TM. I would like to see his flip.

@KY-
Tajo doesn't dislike your vote because it's weak. He thinks it is insincere.

You are also potentially buddying with me, and potentially using me to to validate your position. You could be setting up to excuse any negative results by blaming me.

[TonyMontana]

@Yosarian2-
My vote is on TM. I would like to see his flip.

Case of the year! Open and shut! Take me to the gallows right away.

Still, the award for best case goes to Kirb for

@Yos: I'm already voting for Tony, so if I had to pick someone right now, it would be him.

Apart from not really bringing a case, I'm more annoyed by Kast than I am suspicious. Kirb on the other hand is the one tagging along without really bringing anything to the table. So as of now, my vote goes to Kirb for hitching his wagon to a imploding star.

[TonyMontana]

(but if the MC will be be someone other than me, i'd rather have it be Kast to be honest, as I don't wanna live through another day with him -.-)

[Kast]

Case of the year! Open and shut! Take me to the gallows right away.

Try reading.

[farside22]

kirby post:
This is all after you voted me. What's the case you actually voted me on?

Sarcasm has helped other people; why can't it help me?

This doesn't read well for me. Twice now tajo asked for a case and you keep deflecting it with either sarcasm or pettiness.

Drowmage - I just think at this point although the mechaninc discussion is helpful it's also distracting from trying to scum hunt.

Chamber - how will it branch off into scum hunting if people just continue talking mechanics and what can you find scum wise with mechanic talks?

I personally just think the main focus has been on the mechanics which makes thigs difficult for scum hunting. I dont' mind the questions and figuring things out and as Kast stated there is time in which to talk as much as we want but the mechanics will eventualy be a null thing to read as far as who is town or scum in my eyes.

[TonyMontana]

Case of the year! Open and shut! Take me to the gallows right away.

Try reading.

Try writing.

[Snow_Bunny]

Speculation is not good, imo, and thus, I'd prefer to focus on actual scumhunting.

1 post later:

Suppose this situation:

*snip*

Now, suppose this situation

If you're going to call people out for not scum hunting, the least you could do is make an effort to disguise your own hypocrisy. In the space of one post you just rendered your own argument completely moot.

Yep, a bit hypocrite. Though, with speculation I refer to setup and mechanics speculation. Still, my bad.

We don't have much right now, as any D1 on most mafia games. Kirby is my top suspect, followed by the lurkers.