Mini 870: Melee mafia. (Mod Abandoned)

[populartajo]

Uh, that las quote is from Kirbyyoshi.

[Kirbyoshi]

Well then, what's the

rest

of your case against me?

Nobody else has done anything scummy enough to earn a vote.

Is it

that

hard to explain why I'm the scummiest player here?

[populartajo]

Being sarcastic isnt going to help you.

Please have a look at this. I added some quotes. Did you really think all my case was "lack of towniness"?:

I don't think he ever did explain why he didn't answer all the questions posed to him. And why is it a weak reason? At that point in the game, could you have made a better case on anybody?

He did explain. And this was your answer:

Now, back to business...

Unvote, Vote: TonyMontana

for not answering all the questions. There were 7 questions asked, and you only answered 1. Explain.

Actually, I answered 2, and I explained why.

It's like the first question was "is your favorite color pink?" then the subsequent question was about why my favorite color was pink. My favorite color is purple. Don't care much for pink.

Meh, I guess that's fair enough.
Still waiting on Grover.

And yes, it was a weak reason. I dont think I could have made a better case on anybody. I dont understand why you needed to. If you cant guess what my problem is, is that your vote reeks of fake scumhunting.

It's been stated several times. Read, please.

Actually, I dont think so. Please point me to where it has.

[Kirbyoshi]

This is all after you voted me. What's the case you actually voted me on?

Sarcasm has helped other people; why can't it help me?

[populartajo]

Unvote, Vote: TonyMontana for not answering all the questions. There were 7 questions asked, and you only answered 1. Explain.

Me no likes people exaggerating cases. Also, me no likes people following blindly what Kast says.

snip

imo, it's probably time to stop arguing about logistics, do it the way majority has agreed upon, and commence scumhunting. Everyone good with that? I just get bogged down talking about how we're going to do everything; let's just do it.

I love how YOU commence to scumhunt.

[Kirbyoshi]

First point has been explained.

Second point, I concede, is valid. That was the wrong post to make. Although, I had posted my case/vote against Tony earlier, so in essence, I was already scumhunting, and just waiting for everyone else to "catch up," so to speak.

[populartajo]

With a weak vote.

Anyways, what was the motivation for this post, Yoshi?

Tajo, I find it interesting that you're giving me flak for making a weak case, yet what's yours against me? "Lack of towniness"? Wow.

Did you want to make me look bad after you said I was one of your town reads?

[Kirbyoshi]

You make yourself look bad through your apparent hypocrisy.

[drowmage]

I've read the topic over and with the exception of Kast's posts and line of reasoning I think I've got an excellent handle for what's going on here.

Kast: The article that Nuwen linked to and the entire complaint about your posting style is to get you to be a little less verbose; not to get you to split your posts up or post "summaries" in distracting colors. Communicating an idea effectively with fewer words is an art form but you'll get there. Small posts make the thread infinitely more readable.

Mechanics discussions are always helpful and I don't understand why Kirby and Snow_Bunny are quite suddenly trying to put a stop to it. I especially don't like how Kirby is grasping at straws for scum tells. Wouldn't mind seeing him go at this point. Him arguing with Tajo seems particularly over-defensive to me.

Tajo, I find it interesting that you're giving me flak for making a weak case, yet what's yours against me? "Lack of towniness"? Wow

"nuh-uh! YOUR case is weak! " is not a valid defense. I find myself siding with Tajo here.

[Kirbyoshi]

@drow: Mechanics discussions should not last 7 pages. Another reason I want to put a stop to the focus on mechanics is that I play better without talking about them. Once people start dropping some actual scumtells, my play will become much smoother.

"nuh-uh! YOUR case is weak! Razz" is not a valid defense. I find myself siding with Tajo here.

That is being done while defending not myself, but my case. Think of it more as a counter-attack. At this point, since Tajo's case is the only one presented against me, I feel that playing to contradict it (aka being townish) is the best way to defend myself.

[populartajo]

You make yourself look bad through your apparent hypocrisy.

what hypocrisy you are talking about?

[Kirbyoshi]

You call my case against Tony weak, yet your case against me is no stronger.

[chamber]

@drow: Mechanics discussions should not last 7 pages. Another reason I want to put a stop to the focus on mechanics is that I play better without talking about them. Once people start dropping some actual scumtells, my play will become much smoother.

You can't just expect players to drop scumtells by themselves. You have to put people into situations where they will react. I think mechanical discussion, when the game is as unique as this one, is a good place for such things to branch from.

[drowmage]

Mechanics discussions should not last 7 pages.

Says who? Where is that written down? Show me the wiki article or link some meta that sets a precedent as to what governs the length of a mechanics discussion. This is a rather complex setup, so I'm happy to sit here and discuss the topic ad nauseam so that everyone in-thread is on the same page.

Another reason I want to put a stop to the focus on mechanics is that I play better without talking about them. Once people start dropping some actual scumtells, my play will become much smoother.

There's still a couple of stragglers left in the thread that need to do a better job of inserting themselves into the discussion; however, if you'd rather scum hunt I'm fine with that. The focus is on you now so that should render your complaint moot.

[TonyMontana]

@TM-

You have not answered several questions. I will repost the two that I would like to hear answers for the most.

-Why did you say that voting would be infeasible, then immediately turn around and say you plan to vote? Also explain how voting is infeasible.
-Why did you initially state that attacks should all be in thread but then turn around and claim everyone should be free to use PM if they want?

Ignoring questions doesn't make them go away. These minor inconsistencies sound like scum trying to blend by agreeing with everyone.

First question is just lies. First of all, I never made a "turn around" and said I plan to vote. Secondly, I said that voting for a lynch candidate wasnt a feasible strategy. I would defend it, except I thought that HP was regenerated, which make all my previous points moot.

As for second question, again you construct an issue where there is none.
Attacks ≠ actions

[TonyMontana]

I still think so far, Tony is most likely to be scum, but any cases people can make at this stage are going to be weak.

But still glad you got out there that I'm "most likely to be scum" even though you can't explain why.

[Kast]

@Drowmage-
-Speculating and discussing mechanics at the expense or to the exclusion of scumhunting is generally detrimental. But agreed that there shouldn't ever be a hard constraint against discussing mechanics; especially not in a non-traditional game like this.

-The article is about brevity, but nowhere states that content should be dropped for brevity's sake. My posts have touched on (and raised) nearly every game relevant subject, particularly how this game works and what we're going to do about that.

I'd rather post something longer than assume that someone else will do it.

@KY Case-
I don't really see it. He placed one of the first serious votes of the game and it was weak. He could be following/buddying on me. Is that all?

@TM Case-
TM has directly contradicted himself and implicitly contradicted himself. He hasn't bothered to defend explain or defend either contradiction, instead he's been playing extremely conciliatory (probably what led to the contradictions). It's like he doesn't care what he says as long as it's agreeing with the majority and won't ruffle feathers.

I strongly suspect scum in this game want to lurk and avoid getting townies upset with them. TM's play fits this bill.

This recent post from KY also fits my expected scum behavior.

@Tajo-
-Without a unanimous or near unanimous agreement on punishing rogues, I don't think it is fair or feasible. If you can convince 2 out of {Chamber, Grover, Snow_bunny, TonyMontoya}, to agree on punishing rogues, I think we'll be okay with it.

@Rushing-
This game doesn't have deadlines. As long as players continue to post, we can prolong the Melee Phase indefinitely and discuss anything necessary. There is seriously no need to rush.

[Kast]

Posted without seeing TM's response. Update forthcoming.

[drowmage]

Speculating and discussing mechanics at the expense or to the exclusion of scumhunting is generally detrimental.

Nice strawman. That's not what I said at all. I don't have a problem with anyone making an honest attempt at scum hunting. I do have a problem with anyone trying to shut down an active discussion for any reason.

[TonyMontana]

@TM Case-
TM has directly contradicted himself and implicitly contradicted himself. He hasn't bothered to defend explain or defend either contradiction, instead he's been playing extremely conciliatory (probably what led to the contradictions). It's like he doesn't care what he says as long as it's agreeing with the majority and won't ruffle feathers.

Lies upon lies.
If i've contradicted myself, point out where. With quotes, not with lies like you did before.

And I'm trying to go with the majority and not ruffle feathers? You're joking right?

[Kast]

-Should we vote for a lynch candidate?

I started answering the questions, but realized it all fell apart by the fact that I don't think voting for a lynch candidate will a feasibly strategy.

I think votes should be used, to emphasize suspicions.

First of all, I never made a "turn around" and said I plan to vote.

You clearly said you think votes should be used. Technically you didn't say you " plan to vote". You still contradicted your statement.

The position you claim in the latter post is not a reason to stop answering the questions. Answers would be:

-Should we vote for a lynch candidate?

Yes

--Who should attack the lynch candidate?

The players who voted for him

--How should we determine the lynch candidate?

Each player place a vote on their suspect during Discussion Phase. Then each player attacks their voted suspect during Melee Phase.

-Should we punish players who ignore the town and attack their own target?

No

Secondly, I said that voting for a lynch candidate wasnt a feasible strategy. I would defend it, except I thought that HP was regenerated, which make all my previous points moot.

Humor me. I'd still like to hear your reasoning. Even if you thought HP was regenerated, that wouldn't make voting infeasible.

From the time I asked you to explain your position, until you realized HP wasn't regenerated, you made two posts, one of which was a direct response to me and answered some of my other questions, but avoided giving this explanation. Why?

Second point:

Demanding that all actions be posted in thread is just as functional as having everyone post their feats. Helps scum more than town.

Agreed. This doesn't directly contradict your previous answer, but your previous answer implied the opposite. Please explain.

-Should players be allowed to send actions by PM?

I can say that I agree that attacks should be posted in thread.

Context of the original question was determining whether town should prohibit PMs submission. By stating agreement with forcing Attacks to be in-thread, you directly supported the position prohibiting PMs. Why did you do this?

Why did you only clarify your position regarding actions AFTER the town had agreed that it we wouldn't punish players who PM actions? Specific posts that changed your mind are appreciated, as are your thoughts/reasoning.

[Kast]

@Drowmage-

Show me the wiki article or link some meta that sets a precedent as to what governs the length of a mechanics discussion.

Speculating and discussing mechanics at the expense or to the exclusion of scumhunting is generally detrimental.

I assumed your question was a request for any conditions under which there should be limits to a mechanics discussion.
When the mechanics discussion is at the expense of scumhunting or being used in place of scumhunting, then it is detrimental to the town and should be reduced.

Explain how my post can be construed as a straw man. I did not attribute any of your posts as advocating replacement of scumhunting with game mechanics. From context, I directly stated agreement with your assessment of the current mechanics discussion as appropriate.

@TM-

With quotes, not with lies like you did before.

You ignored the quotes the first two times the questions were asked. Why did you wait until the third time the questions were asked to suddenly object and whine that there are no quotes?

And I'm trying to go with the majority and not ruffle feathers?

It's always amusing when scum get called out for trying not to ruffle feathers, then make a big deal AFTER being called out and try to point at that as counter-evidence. Nice try.

[chamber]

@Drowmage-
-

Speculating and

discussing mechanics at the expense

or to the exclusion

of scumhunting is generally detrimental.

But

agreed that there shouldn't ever be a

hard

constraint against discussing mechanics;

especially not in a non-traditional game like this.

-The article is about brevity, but nowhere states that content should be dropped for brevity's sake. My posts have touched on

(and raised)

nearly every game relevant subjec

t, particularly how this game works and what we're going to do about that.

I'd rather post something longer than assume that someone else will do it.

@KY Case-
I don't really see it. He placed one of the first serious votes of the game and it was weak. He could be following/buddying on me. Is that all?

@TM Case-
TM has directly contradicted himself

and implicitly contradicted himself

. He hasn't bothered to defend

explain or defend

either contradiction

, instead he's been playing extremely conciliatory (probably what led to the contradictions).

It's like he doesn't care what he says as long as it's agreeing with the majority

and won't ruffle feathers.

I strongly suspect scum in this game want to lurk and avoid getting townies upset with them. TM's play fits this bill.

This recent post from KY also fits my expected scum behavior.

Why is this green?

@Tajo-
-Without a

unanimous or

near unanimous agreement on punishing rogues, I don't think it is

fair or

feasible. If you can convince 2 out of {Chamber, Grover, Snow_bunny, TonyMontoya}, to agree

on punishing rogues,

I think we'll be okay with it.

@Rushing-
This game doesn't have deadlines. As long as players continue to post, we can prolong the Melee Phase indefinitely

and discuss anything necessary.

There is seriously no need to rush.

@Drowmage-
-Discussing mechanics at the expense of scumhunting is generally detrimental. Agreed that there shouldn't ever be a constraint against discussing mechanics.
-The article is about brevity, but nowhere states that content should be dropped for brevity's sake. My posts have touched on nearly every game relevant subject.

I'd rather post something longer than assume that someone else will do it.

@KY Case-
I don't really see it. He placed one of the first serious votes of the game and it was weak. He could be following/buddying on me. Is that all?

@TM Case-
TM has directly contradicted himself. He hasn't bothered to defendeither contradiction It's like he doesn't care what he says as long as it's agreeing with the majority.

I strongly suspect scum in this game want to lurk and avoid getting townies upset with them. TM's play fits this bill.

This recent post from KY also fits my expected scum behavior.

@Tajo-
-Without a near unanimous agreement on punishing rogues, I don't think it is feasible. If you can convince 2 out of {Chamber, Grover, Snow_bunny, TonyMontoya}, to agree ] I think we'll be okay with it.

@Rushing-
This game doesn't have deadlines. As long as players continue to post, we can prolong the Melee Phase indefinitely. There is seriously no need to rush.

5 minutes and just removed unneeded words. I'm pretty sure if I started paraphrasing I could cut it in half from the second quote, but you get the point.

[TonyMontana]

-Should we vote for a lynch candidate?

I started answering the questions, but realized it all fell apart by the fact that I don't think voting for a lynch candidate will a feasibly strategy.

I think votes should be used, to emphasize suspicions.

First of all, I never made a "turn around" and said I plan to vote.

You clearly said you think votes should be used. Technically you didn't say you " plan to vote". You still contradicted your statement.

I said votes should be used to emphasize suspicions.
Which did not contradict my position that we should all vote for one lynch candidate.

Second point:

Demanding that all actions be posted in thread is just as functional as having everyone post their feats. Helps scum more than town.

Agreed. This doesn't directly contradict your previous answer, but your previous answer implied the opposite. Please explain.

-Should players be allowed to send actions by PM?

I can say that I agree that attacks should be posted in thread.

Context of the original question was determining whether town should prohibit PMs submission. By stating agreement with forcing Attacks to be in-thread, you directly supported the position prohibiting PMs. Why did you do this?

Why did you only clarify your position regarding actions AFTER the town had agreed that it we wouldn't punish players who PM actions? Specific posts that changed your mind are appreciated, as are your thoughts/reasoning.

"By stating agreement" <-

who says this?

You say alot of words, but you say

NOTHING.

You post a million posts a day, propped full of confusing euphemisms and constructed points.

If you can't adress me in a proper fashion, then

STFU

And I already answered your second point, but you are to busy trying to sound important, than to actually take in what I say.

[Kast]

@Chamber-
Overall nice job. Feel free to do for my other posts.

I'm pretty sure if I started paraphrasing I could cut it in half from the second quote, but you get the point.

I'd like to see that.

Some of the parts you erased are important.

@Drowmage-
-

Speculating and

discussing mechanics at the expense

or to the exclusion

of scumhunting is generally detrimental.

But

agreed that there shouldn't ever be a

hard

constraint against discussing mechanics;

especially not in a non-traditional game like this.

-The article is about brevity, but nowhere states that content should be dropped for brevity's sake. My posts have touched on

(and raised)

nearly every game relevant subjec

t, particularly how this game works and what we're going to do about that.

I'd rather post something longer than assume that someone else will do it.

@KY Case-
I don't really see it. He placed one of the first serious votes of the game and it was weak. He could be following/buddying on me. Is that all?

@TM Case-
TM has directly

and indirectly

contradicted himself

and implicitly contradicted himself

. He hasn't bothered to defend

explain or defend

either contradiction

, instead he's been playing extremely conciliatory (probably what led to the contradictions).

It's like he doesn't care what he says as long as it's agreeing with the majority

and won't ruffle feathers.

I strongly suspect scum in this game want to lurk and avoid getting townies upset with them. TM's play fits this bill.

This recent post from KY also fits my expected scum behavior.

Why is this green?

@Tajo-
-Without a

unanimous or

near unanimous agreement on punishing rogues, I don't think it is

fair or

feasible.

If you can convince 2 out of

Try convincing 2 of

{Chamber, Grover, Snow_bunny, TonyMontoya}

, to agree on punishing rogues, I think we'll be okay with it.

@Rushing-
This game doesn't have deadlines. As long as players continue to post, we can prolong the Melee Phase indefinitely

and discuss anything necessary.

There is seriously no need to rush.