Mini 873 Plainview Game Over

[lexprod]

You know what? Archa's got a point. Even though muffin is the enemy of my enemy per se, that doesn't make him my friend.

Unvote
Vote Muffin

Let's get some accountability.

[Gammagooey]

Kays. In response to earlier archaebob, I currently think peanut leans slightly town. The biggest thing I had against him has a decent explanation and his suspicions are reasonable in my opinion, even if I don't agree with them.

As for changing my vote, I will consider it if he doesn't post by late tonight, but as of now he's probably at work and I would rather put my vote where my suspicion is.

[archaebob]

peanutman, whether or not you like me, trust me, or think I'm scum, don't you agree that at this precise moment it is a good idea to pressure Muffin?

Don't let your personal issues with me prevent you from making a good town move. I'll still be here after, when Muffin posts, you can switch your vote back to me if you still think I'm the best target.

[archaebob]

@ Muffin, Chinaman, Afatchic

We're waiting on you.

[Gammagooey]

As for changing my vote, I will consider it if he doesn't post by late tonight, but as of now he's probably at work and I would rather put my vote where my suspicion is.

It's 11:30 now in my timezone, and he said he would post yesterday.
Pressure

vote:Muffin

[Benmage]

Vote Count:
AlmasterGM (1) MordyS
Chinaman (1) Muffin
foilist13 (1) SpyreX
archaebob (3) afatchic, peanutman, AlmasterGM
Muffin (4) foilist13, archaebob, lexprod, Gammagooey

Note Voting (2) Chinaman, cruelty

[foilist13]

Interesting. Is everyone who is voting Muffin actually willing to lynch him if he doesn't start posting, or do you plan to wait for a replacement?

[Benmage]

afatchic has been prodded

I like activity.

[Gammagooey]

Interesting. Is everyone who is voting Muffin actually willing to lynch him if he doesn't start posting, or do you plan to wait for a replacement?

Honestly I'm assuming that it doesn't come down to that considering that he's been posting that he'll get around to posting every other day or so : /.

[Muffin]

Argh, sorry guys. I got busy with some RL stuff, catching up now.

also

unvote

for now

[Muffin]

Going to respond to foilist's case on me first.

Then in posts 85 and 86 he literally says nothing.

Post 85 was a direct response to a question put to me by archaebob. Post 86 was expressing how unconvinced I was by Alamaster's internet tough guy act.

It's absolutely ridiculous. When I signed up on the site and got into my first newbie game I went and read some games too.

Here he ignores the actual argument.

Try that again. The argument was that townies looking up other people is ridiculous. I stated that I read a whole bunch of games to get meta prior to my first game. As you know from that game I was town.

So tell me again how I ignored the argument?

Ok after the first quote he starts by arguing semantics, then simply says a bandwagon now won't hold to the end of the day,

It won't

and makes a non-serious poke at Chinaman. Nice and meaty looking, but no content worth noting.

Who says my vote wasn't serious?

Then he makes a long chunky couple of paragraphs about how Fos'ing is useless. Again, he has posted nothing of relevance.

IMO fossing is useless. Obviously you disagree.

Comment on what, specifically? The exchange between you and foilist? Please clarify or link/quote/whatever.

I agree that foilist appears to be reading/replying selectively and the fact that he is continuing is raising my eyebrows, to say the least.

I also agree though, that your approach has been less than diplomatic.

Again, nothing of relevance. A bit of a stab at me, and a comment about Archaebob's play style.

You're really trying hard to twist my words, aren't you? How can there be something relevant if I didn't know what he was asking?

That's why I asked for clarification

. HURRRRR DURRRRRR.

...........

This is another post that looks nice and meaty, but in fact says next to nothing. He basically says he was turning Chinaman's non-existent logic on himself and voting for him to make a point. Ok fine, more power to Muffin.

Then in his next point he reiterates all of the things he said in his last few posts for Chinaman.

Your argument here is what, exactly? That I repeated myself after I made my point? How damning.

...

......

..................... well I suppose I see your point. But I still think fossing is retarded. Since it has no effect, it ultimately has no purpose.

Either way, the fact remains that Chinaman has decided his way is the only way, since he thinks I'm scummy for not fossing or using some other kind of bolded statement. Then he gets on my case saying "I don't have to play by your rules, do I?"

So... I have to play by his rules (since not fossing makes me scummy) but he doesn't have to play by mine? Fuck that. That's still hypocrisy right there.

Here he gives up his point, but then makes the same one about something infinitely more minor. Chinaman is not playing particularly intelligently, but Muffin isn't playing at all.

Yeah this is why I gave up the argument, because I realized it was just filler that would distract the rest of the town. You can see what happens when town gets distracted and spends like 4 pages arguing a non-issue in newbie 846.

[Muffin]

Ha! Kirby? Kirby is the most pathetic choice of character you could make! Gee, I dunno know who I'll choose.... Hey! This one has a lame version of all of them!

Meta Knight's where it's at.

And let's be serious here, I'm not the only one who has posted non-game-related content.

[Gammagooey]

unvote:Muffin

Re

Vote:AlmasterGM

Once again,

Limited Access

until Thursday past midnight (eastern time), but if there's something you really need a quick response to send me a PM and i'll do my best.

[Muffin]

As for AlamasterGM, I think he's probably town. The early serious vote seems to be more of a newbie town mistake or some combination of No True Scotsman and Confirmation Bias fallacies. Ultimately I see Alamaster as somebody with the right idea but the wrong direction, if that makes any sense. I will have to read some meta on Alamaster to further this.

After re-reading that exchange between Alamaster and Moody a couple of things caught my eye.

1.

If I've expressed the opinion, either explicitly or implicitly through my actions, that bandwagoning can be valuable, and I was Town at the time that I expressed the opinion, obviously that opinion is not a scumtell on me in this game, correct? (This should be very simple, but correct me if I'm missing something obvious.) On Day One of Mini 843 (Fast and the Furious), post 27 (and then later on), I act on the same belief. Not only was I town in that game, but it's a game town ended up winning. So if you believe it's not helpful for townie, you're entitled, and feel free to start a topic on Mafia Discussion to discuss it. But it's a principle I believe, I've used before as town, and I'll continue to use in future games until I believe it's no longer useful. It's not a scumtell.

This post is a heap of WIFOM and doesn't really address the issue. Saying "bandwagoning is pro-town" is a null tell at best.

2.

Unstoppable wagon piles up on foilist13. If foilist13 is town, and archaebob is scum, archaebob stays quiet and he's got a perfectly easy lynch on day one and a lot of fingers to point it at (me, SpyreX, whoever else jumps on top) on day two. So the fact that he spoke up with meta that at least slowed the wagon (if not ended it), makes it an implicitly townie act. Only non-townie scenario is that archaebob AND foilist13 are scum, but look at this thread and tell me if that makes any sense at all. Not sure if SpyreX has anything more slam-dunk than that (he may very well), but that's what has me convinced archaebob is town.

I personally don't like trying to predict D2 results and behaviours, as it mostly just serves to give scum a list of do's and don'ts for avoiding suspicions. MordyS can you please explain why you're wasting time predicting day2 stuff? I'd rather we focus effort on D1.[/url]

[Muffin]

I also notice that Cruelty has been trying (somewhat successfully) to stay in the shadows. With only 8 posts in the thread he's at about 1 post every 3 pages, and here they are.

Oh here I am. Sorry, timezones etc + working = L(ish)A over wed/thurs US time.


Anyway, I want my RV so

vote: Chinaman

for continuously being in all my mini-normal games.



Not sure if Almaster is serious or not, but when I first signed up to the site I read through a couple games before I played. If this is a serious case it's ridiculous.

Having said that, I agree that an early bandwagon is dangerous; that's exactly what scum want. Something they can hide in and hopefully push a mislynch through quickly. If that happens, town is immediately down 2 barring a lucky doctor save (which would be luck if this hypowagon moved quickly).

Not much other than a /confirm and randomvote.

It makes sense, to me at least, for a town player to research a player they're suspicious of, but to go and look up everyone or even random people at the very beginning?

@f13: Would you agree that it makes sense for a new player to read through some games before jumping into a game of his or her own?


As archaebob said, Almaster leaped to the assumptiong that Gamma researched [at least him, possibly all of us]. Gamme actually said nothing of the sort, so this is a point of massive misrepresentation.



@everyone (you don't need to reply, just think about it); did you register and immediately start playing in a game, or did you register and flick through a few games before you started playing?

More about noobs reading through games.

What was the purpose of this question though? Are you suggesting that he might have encountered Almaster before? Maybe, but that is extremely unlikely, especially if he is a relatively new player.

Seems pretty straightforward to me..

All I wanted to know was if you thought it was reasonable to read through games before jumping in - you said it was. It's not

that

unreasonable to think that someone in one of those games ends up playing in this game - Chinaman has been in my last 3 mini-normals.

more of the same

I'm here, been busy during the weekend and the little time I did have I put into another game, because this one was harder to read.


Yeah my RVS vote is still there, so

unvote

.


I'm skeptical of AGM in general, I thought that he came out of the gates like a bull and it almost seemed deliberate, the amount of attention he was drawing to himself. Then he presents a ridiculous case and disappears, I thought it almost seemed like he was behaving scummy on purpose, creating a WIFOM defence or something.

I'm not really down with foilist, I think that you're scrambling, I don't entirely agree with your epic wall post (I think Muffin tends to waffle (get it?) on a bit but I wouldn't say he's entirely devoid of content) but I'm not sure that it makes you scum. I think that you're making it easy for us to lynch you, but I also think that you could be explained away as an irritatingly stubborn person. I'm undecided as to which.

Unvoting from RVS and planting himself firmly on the fence.

@ cruelty - I want to avoid any more arguments about whether or not it's necessary to always be voting, so I'll just say this: can you please indicate who you overall find the most suspicious right now?.

Foilist, but as I said I'm not 100% decided, and I don't want to contribute to a quick wagon.

I don't like scumlists, I think that it's an easy way for scum to work out who to target - take out the people that everyone thinks are town, and then you're left with a bunch of shady characters. Stop posting them please, they should really be only used at the end of the day by a player who is a likely lynch (so he or she can get his feelings/info out for town).

Also not really sure why you're all over me for activity; it's been the weekend after all.

How would you determine which it is? I'm wondering myself whether foilist13 is just stubborn (to the point of looking horribly scummy), or scummy and scrambling. I'm not sure how to separate it, though, as instead of a mea culpa, every answer foilist13 gives just retrenches himself.

At this point I don't think you can. If he's scum he's obviously worried and will slip up sooner or later, if he's town he'll plateau. I get the impression that scumfoilist does not have the blood of an assassin running through his veins, he aint ice cold.

I also think foilist is running a huge OMGUS game here. He's basically getting scummy vibes from anyone who dares question him, this isn't really a tell as such, just a general observation that his opinion of who and who isn't scum seems to be relatively worthless at this point.

Archaebob manages to drag out an admission of whom cruelty finds scummiest, although the last two paragraphs in the post tend to contradict this opinion though. Cruelty doesn't think his #1 suspect has the blood of an assassin running through his veins. His #1 suspect also seems to him to be relying largely on OMGUS. That logic stinks.

@ cruelty - can I assume then that you do not find Muffin at all suspicious?

You can assume whatever you like.

Being unhelpful

@ Cruelty - I'm saying that only because you said foilist's suspicions were entirely worthless. Muffin is his top suspect, so I extrapolated. Is this incorrect, or not? I don't understand why you are hostile to me.

Not hostile.


I just don't want to show my entire hand - it's related to my stance on scumlists. If I find someone suspicious to a point whereby I think everyone should look at them, then I'll post.


And no, I wouldn't rule Muffin out because he's at odds with foilist. Like I said, I'm not 100% on foilist for a start, and you can never ignore bussing, or potentially 2 anti-town factions (eg: mafia/sk). That said, I'm not going to speculate about partners/bussing/multiple factions, I only bring them up to show my line of thinking.

I rather agree with Cruelty's opnion(s) about scumlists, actually. But only scumlists. Playing everything close to the chest is IMO not pro-town. (Not that it's necessarily anti-town either, if that makes sense).

Mordy and Spyrex: please don't post a response to AGM yet. I want to see afatchic, Chinaman, Muffin, and cruelty stake out their positions, based on everything that has happened so far.

You know what I want to hear? YOUR position.

This.



I've already stated I'm not going to give away my hand just because you asked me to. This isn't anti-town, it's quite simply the fact that the more information the scum have the easier their NKs (and their pushes for mislynches) become.




I saw the softclaim in AGMs post, not really sure why it's there given a lack of relative heat in your direction, but whatever.

...

...

Quoted the whole post but snipped out the parts I'm not responding to. First of all: the AGM quote in cruelty's post doesn't contain a softclaim to my eyes...

Secondly I disagree that more info is good for scum. More info is good for town, who are uninformed. Scum already have a lot of info since they know all the alignments to begin with.

I'd appreciate if you could at least vote. You've mentioned that you think foilist overall is the most suspicious. Any reason why you haven't voted yet?

Yes. I'm not confident enough in my read to want to help the wagon gain steam. I'm not one to throw my vote around; I'll pressure vote but that's not necessary at this time. I also don't like being asked to vote when there's no current urgency. Rest assured I won't be sitting on the fence at the end of the day.

I'm also intrigued by the recent AGM developments; I'm questioning whether or not to elevate him in my (not to be openly discussed) scumlist.

defending another player is not necessarily scummy. We're trying to find the scum and avoid lynching town, so if we see someone we think is town be accused of scum it would be logical to defend them if you think the argument is faulty.

I tend to agree with this in general. However.

Defending someone is fine, assuming they get the opportunity to defend themselves first. Town has no reason to pre-empt a defence for someone else; often how someone defends themselves is more telling than an attack so by defending someone before they defend themselves, you're effectively coaching them with how they should (assuming you make a good defensive case) defend themselves - they can basically quote you and agree.

That's not to say pointing out logical flaws in an attack is scummy; there's a difference between "argument x is illogical and this is why" and "player x is not scummy and this is why".

Still fence sitting, saying he's merely "intrigued" by the alamasterGM developments. I agree with the second part of the post though.

I normally try to avoid posting walls-of-text but I figured it was best, to avoid them being broken up in case someone posted in between. More content to come later.

[cruelty]

Couple things.


1: That quote wasn't the softclaim. I quoted it to agree with AGM.


2: At the time, I was seriously considering voting archaebob; I didn't want to say anything about it because I didn't want to cause him to feel pressured - I tend to think that you're more likely to get a scumslip from an overconfident scum than a worried one who's turtling.

I'm going to do this.

vote: archaebob

This is why.

1: Constant pressure on people to give up info. I think the type of info bob is looking for is information that can ultimately damage the town.
2: Extreme activity. I know how that reads and I'll be probably crucified for this, but 75 posts in 12 pages is abnormal. I don't think activity itself is scummy (Muffin would find it ironic if I did, I'm sure), but I think that in this instance we have a lot of short posts, a lot of questions (a LOT) and not much in the way of original thought. Given that the content he's requesting is in my mind more beneficial to scum than town, and you can (maybe? please?) understand my thinking here.
3: This.

peanutman, whether or not you like me, trust me, or think I'm scum, don't you agree that at this precise moment it is a good idea to pressure Muffin?

Don't let your personal issues with me prevent you from making a good town move. I'll still be here after, when Muffin posts, you can switch your vote back to me if you still think I'm the best target.

Do this peanutman, it's right, I said so. This isn't swaying someone via a beautifully constructed argument, this is a veiled order. I have a huge issue with this post - he's telling someone what to do; this is not a town thing. Throw in a little manipulation ("making a good town move") and a little reminder that a vote isn't final (it is if you can push a bandwagon through) and you have yourself a grinning puppetmaster pulling strings in front of everyone.


This is actually a trend with him:

I do know for sure that we're not lynching at all until everyone in this game has clearly staked their positions out

There's no way we're going to lynch AGM or foilist until

Mordy and Spyrex: please don't post a response to AGM yet

depending on how things turn out, we're going to lynch either you, peanut, or one of the non-posters

I'm sure there's more, can't be bothered going further back.



I guess what I need is for bob to post more meaningful content. When the vast majority of your posts are questions and orders, rather than case building, then I begin to wonder about your alignment. Right now, I'd be happy for you to be lynched because I think that you're controlling the game and I'm not at all convinced that you have the best of intentions.




As for my activity, I'm posting about once a day; not really sure that's it's reasonable to ask for more (one player accounts for over a quarter of the posts) and it's kind of ironic that it's you doing the asking. That said,

Mod: I'll be VLA over the next 4 days, going out of town and I'm not sure if I'll have internet access

.

[cruelty]

With only 8 posts in the thread he's at about 1 post every 3 pages, and here they are.

What kind of shitty maths is that?

[lexprod]

unvote: Muffin
Vote: Foilist13

Interested in seeing how bob will respond to the case against him.

[lexprod]

unvote: Muffin
Vote: Foilist13

Bolded in case mod didn't see

[Benmage]

Vote Count:
AlmasterGM (2) MordyS, Gammagooey
Foilist13 (2) SpyreX, lexprod
Archaebob (4) afatchic, peanutman, AlmasterGM, cruelty
Muffin (2) foilist13, archaebob

Note Voting (2) Chinaman, Muffin


V/La acknowledged cruelty, thank you.

Once again,

Limited Access

until Thursday past midnight (eastern time), but if there's something you really need a quick response to send me a PM and i'll do my best.

Uhm, if this is directed at me ok. Otherwise there is to be no outside communication about this game, so no PM's...

[archaebob]

@ cruelty -

I don't mind that you suspect me, and I think it's pro-town for you to be keeping tabs on everyone, including me. I promise you, all will become crystal clear regarding my intentions and my positions once I hear from afatchic and Chinaman (or their replacements). I don't see how my playstyle so far is a scum-tell to you, given that there are many examples of town players doing what I've been doing up to this point.

You don't like that I'm not transparent. I follow you. But if you go back and read the questions I've been asking this game, and really pay attention to the way they're phrased and the context in which they're posted, I think you'll find an ample amount of content. I'm paying attention to every player in this game as closely as I can, and I will tell you that part of the reason I haven't been posting cases so far is because I have a bad habit of tunneling which I am trying to lose.

If you read Newbie 846 (which I linked earlier in the thread as foilist's meta) from the beginning, you should see pretty clearly why I have developed a bit of a phobia regarding too much content and cases when not all of the players are posting. You'll also see an example of me playing a certain way at the beginning of the game for a specific reason, and then totally changing gears later on. I was town in that game, and I would suspect that reading it will somewhat alter your opinion of me.

unvote

vote: Chinaman

[archaebob]

@ cruelty - is there anything about me besides my playstyle that you actually find scummy? you don't like that I'm arrogant enough to ask other players to do certain things, or that I'm confident in presuming that certain assumptions of mine will be respected. Fine. But that's about the only thing you can say about me. I find it interesting that you never considered the contradictions and major scum-slips dropped by foilist13 to be worthy of a vote,

even in the early stages of the game

, but yet you are willing to put me up to L-3 because of something which I think should be easy to reconcile with an aggrresive town personality. You are now putting me in palpable danger of a quick lynch, and I think that I've objectively done less to deserve your vote than at least two others who you have decided to ignore.

[Muffin]

With only 8 posts in the thread he's at about 1 post every 3 pages, and here they are.

What kind of shitty maths is that?

Sorry, I meant 2 posts every 3 pages.

[MordyS]

How the hell do we unravel someone scummy like AlmasterGM, and everyone starts focusing on someone who has been pretty rock-solid towny? It blows my mind. Anyway, I have nothing new to contribute. Archaebob looks like he can defend himself (and if he couldn't, then maybe he deserves to be voted). Everyone can go back and read my AlmasterGM posts, though I'd like to point this out:

Two days ago, AlmasterGM wrote in response to my attack on him:

I will admit, this is a well concocted argument. I'm going to need some extra time to break it down and analyze it.

He has not posted since then. This is his MO. He comes under fire and then disappears until the heat is gone. Not one of you, except for Muffin (who I'm about to rip apart so hard that his scum-juice comes loose) has even apparently tried to reconcile his super-scumminess with your lack of pressure on him. I don't know what the hell is going on. I mean, town rarely lynches scum on the first day, so I guess maybe the notion of hitting the scum jackpot immediately is new to many of you. But can we please not let this dude ride under the radar to avoid culpability for his actions. Here's a one-two punch for all you bloody archaebob voters: Archaebob answers attacks on him, AlmasterGM DOES NOT. Put that in your scum-pipe and smoke it.

Now, as for you, Mr. Muffin Man. First the dumbass stuff.

This post is a heap of WIFOM and doesn't really address the issue. Saying "bandwagoning is pro-town" is a null tell at best.

No, that's not the definition of WIFOM. (Side note: I read theory recently that scum are really the only people who like to use WIFOM. Especially this early, and especially when it's this inapplicable.) But YES. It's a null tell. That's my argument! That if I ever used the argument as a Townie, that means it's not a scum tell here. I wasn't arguing that it was a town tell. I was arguing that it wasn't a scum tell. Did you not realize this (thus making you yet another VI that I have to play with) or do you just wreak of scuminess?

I personally don't like trying to predict D2 results and behaviours, as it mostly just serves to give scum a list of do's and don'ts for avoiding suspicions. MordyS can you please explain why you're wasting time predicting day2 stuff? I'd rather we focus effort on D1.

This made me want to pull my hair out. It wasn't a bloody prediction. Oh my god. I can barely even type this it's making my brain want to explode. I was explaining why it wasn't in scum-archaebob's best interest to clear foilist13. Why wasn't it? Because if he didn't clear him, he'd be lynched and archaebob wouldn't shoulder the blame for the lynch since other people were pushing for it harder than him. WHO WAS PREDICTING SHIT? IT WAS ANALYSIS FOR TODAY?

Seriously guys. I'm almost ready to open the ad hominen gates and stop acting like any of you are rational actors at all. There's so much bloody good logic in this game, and then I login to Muffin acting like a Village Idiot, and archaebob, like one of three people I lean way towny on for today, at what? L-2 or something?

As for AlamasterGM, I think he's probably town. The early serious vote seems to be more of a newbie town mistake or some combination of No True Scotsman and Confirmation Bias fallacies. Ultimately I see Alamaster as somebody with the right idea but the wrong direction, if that makes any sense. I will have to read some meta on Alamaster to further this.

Go read your bloody meta. Meanwhile, go read the post where I show why AlmasterGM is scum. I'll give you a hint, though, for next time you want to clear him as "newbie town mistake," (btw, AlmasterGM is not a newb AFAICT. Fun times!). I am not simply attacking him for his "serious vote" on gammagooey. In fact, I MENTIONED THAT EXPLICITLY! I said that I was wavering towards afatchic's defense (that he was merely over anxious town) until he started responding. And btw, as someone so concerned about WIFOM, why don't you tell everyone about how "dumb townie V. scum mistake" is the CLASSIC WIFOM.

[MordyS]

EBWOP: Only L-3. That lowers my blood pressure a tad.