Mini 870: Melee mafia. (Mod Abandoned)

[Yosarian2]

Well, your tl;dr version in blue can be confusing at times. I don't care if you make long posts or multiple short posts, but could you keep that blue thing off? Or at least post it in normal black colour. Just a small request.

The blue writing is all that keeps me sane.

Actually, with the blue writing, it almost seemed like he was arguing with himself, lol.

[Yosarian2]

People who have either been useful, helpful, acted in a pro-town way, or have otherwise given me a good vibe so far:

1) Nuwen
2) populartajo
5) SpyreX
6) Kast
8) Snow_Bunny
10) chamber

People I'd be willing to lynch for not being on the above list(IE: everyone else)
3) TonyMontana
4) Grover
9) Kirbyoshi
11) farside22
12) Col.Cathart

I would really like to hear everyone's suspicions. Most people haven't attacked anyone yet at all, and that needs to change within the next 24 hours or so; I'd like to see us starting to get somewhere by the time this discussion period is over.

[chamber]

People who have either been useful, helpful, acted in a pro-town way, or have otherwise given me a good vibe so far:

1) Nuwen
2) populartajo
5) SpyreX
6) Kast
8) Snow_Bunny
10) chamber

People I'd be willing to lynch for not being on the above list(IE: everyone else)
3) TonyMontana
4) Grover
9) Kirbyoshi
11) farside22
12) Col.Cathart

I would really like to hear everyone's suspicions. Most people haven't attacked anyone yet at all, and that needs to change within the next 24 hours or so; I'd like to see us starting to get somewhere by the time this discussion period is over.

I figure I'll just attack someone and see how they react.

[Kirbyoshi]

chamber, congrats. You have just invalidated the first case you make, since you just admitted that you're going to "just attack someone".

[chamber]

chamber, congrats. You have just invalidated the first case you make, since you just admitted that you're going to "just attack someone".

You say that now, but when you take a good kick to the jaw you wont be laughing.

[Kirbyoshi]

I'm not laughing. I'm actually disappointed that you would announce to everyone that you will attack someone you probably don't have a very strong read on, since the scumhunting has barely begun.

[TonyMontana]

TonyMontana- We should not have a voting system/All players should be free to attack anyone (rogues)/We should not punish rogues/Action PMs should not be allowed/?

We should regard the melee phase as the voting system. I'm all for using votes to gather a sense of the lay of the land, and perhaps inform a consensus, but that shouldn't tie the hands of those who dissent.

If someone disagrees with the majority, it should be treated in the same way as someone who wasn't on a normal lynch wagon. Thus, "rouges" should not be blanketly punished.

As for actions, I know from my own feats that not all actions should posted in-thread. Actions like attacking are AFAIK pointless to leave out of thread, as we will see the attack anyway.
Demanding that all actions be posted in thread is just as functional as having everyone post their feats. Helps scum more than town.

[Col.Cathart]

Sigh...

I'm terribly sorry, but I'm forced to request replacement. Usually I can handle multiple games at once with ease, but unfortunately my finals at the university are coming, and with limited amount of time, I must withdraw from at least one game, and this is definitely the most complicated of them.

Once again, sorry mod, and to all of you.

Good luck!

[Kirbyoshi]

I'm sorry to hear that Cathart; good luck on your exams!

Tony, attacking isn't EXACTLY like voting, and should not be treated as such. It's possible that if everyone gets really lucky rolls on their attacks, we could have half of the players, maybe more, close to death after the first melee phase. Not a good situation to have, since scum can attack just like town can.

[chamber]

we could have half of the players, maybe more, close to death after the first melee phase. Not a good situation to have, since scum can attack just like town can.

Unless my role is WAY above the curve in defense or WAY bellow the curve in offence, this simply isn't true.

[Kirbyoshi]

chamber: what?????

[chamber]

chamber: what?????

If every player had my role and did max damage I dont think there would be that many dead players after 1 round of attack.

[Snow_Bunny]

Mod: Can you please, if it isn't much of a hassle, put the current phase in the topic title? Looks better and more exciting for strangers that way ¬_¬ (no really, please?)

So, chamber, I agree with you that if you don't feel like attacking a player you have a town vibe then don't attack him. But, why do you want to spread out damage like that? And, was that a softclaim?

[chamber]

Mod: Can you please, if it isn't much of a hassle, put the current phase in the topic title? Looks better and more exciting for strangers that way ¬_¬ (no really, please?)

So, chamber, I agree with you that if you don't feel like attacking a player you have a town vibe then don't attack him. But, why do you want to spread out damage like that? And, was that a softclaim?

Based on conversation with the mod I was assuming everyone's role was at least somewhat similar to mine, so no it wasn't intended to be a soft claim. "spread out damage" is also a bit of a misnomer. 1 I don't expect the town to majority someone I have a town read on more than once really 2 In my mind the person I'm putting damage on is going to be mafia. I don't really expect more than 2ish non majority attackers per wagon/lynch.

[TonyMontana]

I'm sorry to hear that Cathart; good luck on your exams!

Tony, attacking isn't EXACTLY like voting, and should not be treated as such. It's possible that if everyone gets really lucky rolls on their attacks, we could have half of the players, maybe more, close to death after the first melee phase. Not a good situation to have, since scum can attack just like town can.

I haven't played DnD in a few years, and I failed at math, but I think you are exaggerating a bit. (a bit = a whole fucking lot)

Besides, why does it matter how many people are close to death? Only one will die anyway, and I fail to see the advantage of everyone following the majority.

[Snow_Bunny]

Mod: Can you please, if it isn't much of a hassle, put the current phase in the topic title? Looks better and more exciting for strangers that way ¬_¬ (no really, please?)

So, chamber, I agree with you that if you don't feel like attacking a player you have a town vibe then don't attack him. But, why do you want to spread out damage like that? And, was that a softclaim?

Based on conversation with the mod I was assuming everyone's role was at least somewhat similar to mine, so no it wasn't intended to be a soft claim. "spread out damage" is also a bit of a misnomer. 1 I don't expect the town to majority someone I have a town read on more than once really 2 In my mind the person I'm putting damage on is going to be mafia. I don't really expect more than 2ish non majority attackers per wagon/lynch.

So, in conclusion, you are saying that you will focus on the most scummy player for you. That's... ok. Not optimal, but ok. As long as you don't go crazy and attack everyone I'll have no problem with this. However, I'll be looking forward for cases against that person (this is, no "I'll attack him because I think he's scum". Real cases.)

[Kirbyoshi]

@Tony: Do you really just fail to see the detriment to town if we just willy-nilly attack anybody/everybody? In this game, chaos is extremely bad for town.

Snow's 140 is agreed with by me. If you have a legit case, people probably should follow it. If you don't, you have no business attacking someone who is not agreed upon by majority. This could be a bit of a stretch for chamber, as he really does follow the philosophy laid out by his title.

What about if the target attacks before they're dead? Who should they attack, or does it matter?

[Kast]

@SB-
I'm getting mixed signals from the town as a whole, but my impression is that the majority prefers the blue text. You can think of them as main points or summaries. You could also just ignore them.

Can't please everyone all the time...

@chamber-

Based on conversation with the mod I was assuming everyone's role was at least somewhat similar to mine, so no it wasn't intended to be a soft claim. "spread out damage" is also a bit of a misnomer. 1 I don't expect the town to majority someone I have a town read on more than once really 2 In my mind the person I'm putting damage on is going to be mafia. I don't really expect more than 2ish non majority attackers per wagon/lynch.

-The majority candidate will almost certainly go rogue (reasonable for a townie). Without punishments, it is likely that other dissenters will also go rogue. I hope you're right that there are no more than 2 rogues per Melee Phase.

We'll see.

-Based on my role PM + clarifications from the mod, I agree with you that all roles are probably somewhat similar. For someone with base AC, I'd expect about a dozen attacks to lynch. For someone with higher AC, the expected number of attacks goes up. It will very possibly take two Melee Phases to arrive at a lynch. This will give rogues ~2-3 attacks on their preferred targets. Any crits would leave significant damage. If the rogue continues this into D2, their target could easily be in range for mafia to join in and finish the deal on D3 (if there are 3 rogues, that's game).

@TM-This is even less of an exaggeration.

[Kast]

@TM-

If someone disagrees with the majority, it should be treated in the same way as someone who wasn't on a normal lynch wagon.

In a normal game, dissenters from the lynch don't permanently affect their target's lynchability. If you dissented in a normal game, your target would be no worse off the following day. If you dissent here, your target is ~2HP closer to death per each attack. You can think of it as your attack permanently reduces the vote threshold for the target.

Attacking != Voting

Besides, why does it matter how many people are close to death? Only one will die anyway, and I fail to see the advantage of everyone following the majority.

Each player that is close to death is equivalent to one day that the mafia can safely disregard town and essentially control the lynch. If there are two players close to death, that allows mafia to safely control 2 days. If there are 3 players, then mafia can control 3 lynches.

This is loosely mitigated by the chance that one of those players close to death could be scum, but considering that a town who allows townies to go rogue also allows scum to freely go rogue, it's at best a wash and more likely net worse for town.

In the meanwhile, scum can safely pick off full health players.

Scum controlled lynch+Scum NK=Town Loss

Demanding that all actions be posted in thread is just as functional as having everyone post their feats. Helps scum more than town.

Agreed. This doesn't directly contradict your previous answer, but your previous answer implied the opposite. Please explain.

-Should players be allowed to send actions by PM?

I can say that I agree that attacks should be posted in thread.

-Show me if I missed it, but don't think you answered why voting and only attacking the majority candidate is not feasible.

Scum controlled lynch+Scum NK=Town Loss

I haven't played DnD in a few years, and I failed at math, but I think you are exaggerating a bit. (a bit = a whole fucking lot)

"if everyone gets really lucky rolls on their attacks", that's 24 attacks with 2.4 crits. Ignoring damage bonuses, that's an expected 91 damage. That's enough to drop all players by 7.6 damage, put the entire town down 10 health across the board, or bring 4-5 townies into scum autolynch range.

In case the math is too confusing, town could lose and it wasn't an exaggeration.

Given the condition that KY stated (everyone gets lucky attack rolls), the outcome strongly argues against spreading damage. However, it is unlikely that everyone will get lucky attack rolls. Even then, spreading damage will result in multiple Melee Phases, which approaches the same result.

[Yosarian2]

we could have half of the players, maybe more, close to death after the first melee phase. Not a good situation to have, since scum can attack just like town can.

Unless my role is WAY above the curve in defense or WAY bellow the curve in offence, this simply isn't true.

Not after the first meele phase, probably. However, by the time someone is "lynched", if everyone off on their own is going after own personal pet project, then we could easily have half the town seriously wounded on day 1.

Or, to put it another way, if two pro-town people lock horns and just keep bashing on each other all game, which is pretty common, it'd be really bad for the town in this game; they won't kill each other quickly, but by the time we get to endgame, they'll likely both be critically wounded, which could make it easy for the scum to autowin two full days before lynch or lose by just killing the badly wounded townies during the day and then nightkilling someone at night.

[Kast]

Btw, chamber's Post 134 is a great example of out of context quoting. By itself it's a pretty crap-logic based argument. Defense is completely irrelevant to KY's post. Offence is only relevant in terms of damage, and has no bearing in terms of attack bonus (which is how the term is being used from context).

His follow up explanation re:damage is valid as an argument but incorrect due to bad numbers. Also, if every player did max damage and we assume no bonuses, then that's 12 damage per player per attack resulting in 288 damage. That should be enough to kill or critically wound most of us.

[Thestatusquo]

drowmage replaces col.colhart.

[drowmage]

rereading. Thanks shea!

[Kirbyoshi]

imo, it's probably time to stop arguing about logistics, do it the way majority has agreed upon, and commence scumhunting. Everyone good with that? I just get bogged down talking about how we're going to do everything; let's just do it.

[TonyMontana]

I was under the impression that stats were reset each day...