Mini 870: Melee mafia. (Mod Abandoned)

[Kast]

@TonyMontana/Grover/Kirbyoshi/Col.Cathart-
Please post thoughts on the following topics:
-Should we vote for a lynch candidate?
--Who should attack the lynch candidate?
--How should we determine the lynch candidate?
-Should we punish players who ignore the town and attack their own target?
--If so, how should we punish those players?
-Should players be allowed to send actions by PM?
--If not, what should be done to those who do?

@Inactives and lurkers- Post something.

[Kast]

Here is a formula for expected damage per attack derived from the rules + clarifications from TSQ:

Code: Select all

Ab = Bonus to attack
Db = Bonus to damage
AC = Defender AC
Expected Damage per Attack = (0.05+IF(AC<2,0.9,IF((20-AC+Ab)<1,0,(20-AC+Ab)/20)))*((1+IF(19+Ab<AC,0,1))*0.05+1)*(Db+3.5)

Ignore this if you hate math.

From my role PM + clarifications from TSQ + assumptions I'm willing to make, I would expect around a dozen attacks (with wide variance) should kill a player. Obviously players with higher AC and/or HP will take longer to kill than players with lower AC and/or HP. Players with bonuses to attack or damage will require fewer attacks to kill someone.

If a majority of us attack a player in one melee phase (2 turns each), we would expect to be able to *just* kill that player with a little bit extra. If the town tried to lynch someone with high AC, it is probable that a majority attacking for a full melee phase will be insufficient to kill that player.

Code: Select all

AC	Expected Damage
11	1.925
12	1.7325
13	1.54
14	1.3475
15	1.155
16	0.9625
17	0.77
18	0.5775
19	0.385
20	0.18375
21	0.18375

[Kast]

@Snow_bunny-
-My understanding is that mafia have traditional mafia abilities on top of their randomly selected character feats. I don't believe TSQ has explicitly ruled out mafia specific abilities granted in addition to character abilities, but that appears to contradict the spirit of randomly assigning mafia among already created character sheets. It would be good to double-check that with TSQ.

They probably don't.

-If you read Nuwen's post literally, then it is confusing. I believe he means "number of

allowable

mislynches". It agrees with your point; if there is damage spread among multiple players, we eventually hit a point where scum can control the lynch by killing those players (ie. we have exhausted the number of allowed mislynches and given mafia control of all remaining lynches).

It's clear from context.

[SpyreX]

Huzzah. This isn't going to be my cup of tea, I can tell already.

Time for rule 1:

@Mod: Replacing out.

[Nuwen]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Spyrex.

Kast is correct, Snow_bunny: in any given setup, the town is allowed x number of mislynches before they're in a lylo situation. The number x should always be kept as high as possible: more room for mistakes, more flip information. If damage is distributed between multiple people instead of concentrated, it would be possible to pick off multiple players at low health in a short amount of time. The town "loses" those opportunities to wagon if damage fractures the game into mini-factions.

[Nuwen]

I reiterate,

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

[TonyMontana]

@TonyMontana/Grover/Kirbyoshi/Col.Cathart-
Please post thoughts on the following topics:
-Should we vote for a lynch candidate?
--Who should attack the lynch candidate?
--How should we determine the lynch candidate?
-Should we punish players who ignore the town and attack their own target?
--If so, how should we punish those players?
-Should players be allowed to send actions by PM?
--If not, what should be done to those who do?

@Inactives and lurkers- Post something.

It's alittle early to be called inactive or lurker, as I woke up an hour ago and the game started while i was sleeping -.-

I started answering the questions, but realized it all fell apart by the fact that I don't think voting for a lynch candidate will a feasibly strategy.

I can say that I agree that attacks should be posted in thread.

[Col.Cathart]

@TonyMontana/Grover/Kirbyoshi/Col.Cathart-
Please post thoughts on the following topics:
-Should we vote for a lynch candidate?
--Who should attack the lynch candidate?
--How should we determine the lynch candidate?
-Should we punish players who ignore the town and attack their own target?
--If so, how should we punish those players?
-Should players be allowed to send actions by PM?
--If not, what should be done to those who do?

@Inactives and lurkers- Post something.

Did you just called me a lurker? I'm in the different timezone, I need some sleep sometimes, you know? ~^

Anyway, to answer your questions:

- Yes, we should.

- Everyone would be the best option. Of course, we cannot force anyone to do this, so attack should come from the majority who found someone scummy. They should be enough anyway to kill the suspect.

- The same way we determine lynch candidates in every other game - by scumhunting.

- Scum would just love that, as it gives them a few bonus mislynches, I only support punishing someone who deliberately don't give a damn about town decisions and generally acts like a dick.

- See above

- I'm all for playing with open cards with that matter. We should all post our actions here. Of course, we cannot stop anyone for doing otherwise, but If we'll catch someone doing it, he should be observed under the microscope for it. Of course if everyone else will agree.

[TonyMontana]

I think votes should be used, to emphasize suspicions. However, I think the actual voting will be done with our weapons.

[populartajo]

Ill post here in the afternoon.

Also, Soyrex

I reiterate,

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

[Snow_Bunny]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Spyrex.

Kast is correct, Snow_bunny: in any given setup, the town is allowed x number of mislynches before they're in a lylo situation. The number x should always be kept as high as possible: more room for mistakes, more flip information. If damage is distributed between multiple people instead of concentrated, it would be possible to pick off multiple players at low health in a short amount of time. The town "loses" those opportunities to wagon if damage fractures the game into mini-factions.

Oh, I get it now. Yes, yes, you're right.

Any roads, the problem I see from creating rules of voting and lynching and encouraging such things is that power will likely end in the group that wants to follow the rules, and thus they will have some control over the flow of things. And if mafia ends up in that group, which is likely as well, then they will have another advantage against town. That's what people tried to do in WoH II and town ended up losing.

I'm in for the votes, but let a player fight its own quarrel if he wants. In the end, we can always get more info from that.

[farside22]

Just read through the first 4 pages. I'm still not feeling 100% so if I drift off I appologize in advance.
I made notes as I saw things to comment about.
@kirbyoshi: did you read the rules about the votes not counting? Do you feel RVS is really going to help when voting doesn't count to lynch and why?
@chamber: Same question to you I asked kirby.
Spyrex post 30: I had the exact same thought when reading this game.
@kast post 31: I feel like your misinterupted why spyrex is saying. We need to have a discussion first. Weed out who everyone feels is scum and go from there.
Even if we successfully identify mafia and everyone attacks that player during the melee phase, it is possible that all of us miss the player AND that the player kills someone else. This is unlikely, but possible.

I would hope the mod made everything even and that if everyone attacked a player that they would be dead if everyone attacked.
Which leads me to a few of my own questions to the mod

Mod

: Is there a turn order on who attacks first? Can 2 people team up at the same time to attack a person? If so will their attack add together or will it be two seperate attacks happening at the same time?

chamber: I sorely disagree with point 1.1. Nuewen and spyrex have a point. If you read war in heaven game at all you will see the chaos that happens when players spread their attacks and why scum won that game. Also being the back up mod I learned that not everyone had the same hit points in that game and one attack can kill a player so I definitely do not agree with this at all.

Side note: I agree with a voting process and with the majority attacking said person. If you have a town read on the person in question then you don't have to attack them but do not attack others.
Spryex please don't leave.

[chamber]

Yes I knew votes didn't count.

Just so its clear I expect to maybe refuse to follow majority on 1 lynch in the entire game (I imagine it has a higher chance of being 0 than 2) but I Will attack someone else in those cases. This all assumes that game that I still haven't read doesn't change my mind.

[Kirbyoshi]

Still not finished catching up yet, but @chamber: You replaced out of Crayola Catastrophe (where I played with you) because NO ONE liked your playstyle.

[chamber]

Still not finished catching up yet, but @chamber: You replaced out of Crayola Catastrophe (where I played with you) because NO ONE liked your playstyle.

Sorry, try to block that game out of my memory. Dicks.

[Kirbyoshi]

@TonyMontana/Grover/Kirbyoshi/Col.Cathart-
Please post thoughts on the following topics:
1. Should we vote for a lynch candidate?
2. Who should attack the lynch candidate?
3. How should we determine the lynch candidate?
4. Should we punish players who ignore the town and attack their own target?
5. If so, how should we punish those players?
6. Should players be allowed to send actions by PM?
7. If not, what should be done to those who do?
@Inactives and lurkers- Post something.

1. Yes, I think it's a good idea.
2. Everyone, unless they have a reason to not suspect someone. They should be expected to post that reason in-thread. (I think this is what chamber was trying to say)
3. Like Cathart said, scumhunt.
4. If they do it for no reason, and if the town (by majority) thinks they should, then yes.
5. Make them the next target.
6. I think that's a better idea.
7. N/A

@chamber: I actually admire your class for replacing out. Thank you, fer rillz.

Now, back to business...

Unvote, Vote: TonyMontana

for not answering all the questions. There were 7 questions asked, and you only answered 1. Explain.

[TonyMontana]

Now, back to business...

Unvote, Vote: TonyMontana

for not answering all the questions. There were 7 questions asked, and you only answered 1. Explain.

Actually, I answered 2, and I explained why.

It's like the first question was "is your favorite color pink?" then the subsequent question was about why my favorite color was pink. My favorite color is purple. Don't care much for pink.

[Kirbyoshi]

Meh, I guess that's fair enough.

Still waiting on Grover.

[Kast]

--How should we determine the lynch candidate?

I wasn't clear enough on this. I meant how should we

logistically

determine the lynch candidate?

-Strict majority?
-Any deadlines?
--What happens if we hit deadline?
-Run through melee phase or wait for a consensus?
-Other issues?

Do people prefer multiple short posts over a single longer one?

-Chamber has made it clear that he will not follow any voting system if he disagrees the lynch candidate (equivalent to only following the system when he is ambivalent). It would NOT be fair to him if the town agrees to a system without first clarifying how the system will interact with a player in his position.

Please share thoughts on this.

Same for TonyMontoya.

[Kast]

@TonyMontoya-
Thanks for joining us and prompt response. Please keep up this activity level. A little bit more attention to specifics would be preferred.

-One way we can play is to just free-for-all attack whoever we individually suspect and discuss to convince others to attack our target. Is this how you think we

SHOULD

do things?

The alternative under discussion is to only attack the player that town votes for. This reduces the danger of mafia controlling the lynch. You said this is not feasible.
--What problems do you see with implementing this system?
--Do you have suggestions to mitigate the danger of mafia controlling the lynch?

Why do you think what you think?

-How does in thread submission help town more than PM submission?
-Do you realize that results of standard combat actions are posted in thread even if the order is submitted by PM?
-If a player does submit action(s) by PM, how should the town react?

Details please.

[Kast]

@Col.Cathart-
Thanks for the answers. Maintenance of similar levels of content and post frequency will be appreciated. Increase of either would be phenomenal.

-You state that punishing players who depart from the system would result in extra mislynchs. Does this mean you think townies are more likely than scum to depart from a voting system?
-Why does being a jerk factor into whether a player should be lynched? Do you believe that scum are more likely to be jerks?
--Conversely, do you believe that amiable behavior is indicative of affiliation?

Unenforced rules are meaningless.

[Kast]

@Snow_bunny-

I'm in for the votes, but let a player fight its own quarrel if he wants. In the end, we can always get more info from that.

Unenforced voting is meaningless.

[Kast]

@FL-
-Kast points out that there is a chance (a low one) that scum could determine the lynch even if the entire town tried to kill that scum.
-Spyrex replied that this can never happen.
Explain how is my response in Post 31 a misinterpretation. I said something is possible; he said it is not. I provided a counter-example showing that it is possible.

?

-We roll for initiative and that determines turn order. Unless a player has a feat or special ability allowing action on another player's turn, they cannot take actions on another player's turn.

-Intuitively, it is extremely unlikely that any player can one-hit kill another player. Scum were chosen randomly, allowing them complete control of the lynch + NK would make the game pointless. However, TSQ did say this game could be swingy and/or unbalanced, so perhaps thoughts about balance should be stifled.

Agreed with your basic point that we should not spread damage as it will unduly give scum more control of the lynch. This is different from regular votes because the damage dealt is permanent (barring a feat or special ability).

[Snow_Bunny]

@Snow_bunny-

I'm in for the votes, but let a player fight its own quarrel if he wants. In the end, we can always get more info from that.

Unenforced voting is meaningless.

Overenforcement is bad for town.

And why are you posting like this? It's harder this way with the coloured sentences and such!

[Kirbyoshi]

Apparently, Kast likes to talk about himself in the third person.
Kirby prefers not to.
Kast also likes to dominate the thread. This isn't bad, just an observation. Until Kast makes a scumslip, I'm willing to follow his lead. Seems very wise, and knowledgable about this kind of game.