Mini 870: Melee mafia. (Mod Abandoned)

[Kast]

@Chamber-
You seem to have missed this.

If a player attacks someone else without an extremely strong reason, we agree to kill that player first.

[Kast]

@Chamber-
You also seem to have missed this:

we should flesh out details of how we actually implement this.

[chamber]

Suggesting a plan that I've already openly disagreed with and suggesting I get killed under said plan doesn't seem very pro-town to me.

[SpyreX]

-Who is Kise? Kast is not Kise. The implication that Kast is proposing we use some "PM format" is misleading and your proposed reaction to death by "an ogre" makes no sense. The claim that some player named Kise (or anything else) is proposing we use some "PM format" is not supported by any posts so far in this game.

Yea how could I have made that mistake.

And how could one ever assume if I go "do it in thread" and you go "NO" that the implication would be anything else.

3 pages in and I already don't care. That's pretty awesome and a new lap record.

Vote: Kast

[chamber]

-Who is Kise? Kast is not Kise. The implication that Kast is proposing we use some "PM format" is misleading and your proposed reaction to death by "an ogre" makes no sense. The claim that some player named Kise (or anything else) is proposing we use some "PM format" is not supported by any posts so far in this game.

Yea how could I have made that mistake.

And how could one ever assume if I go "do it in thread" and you go "NO" that the implication would be anything else.

3 pages in and I already don't care. That's pretty awesome and a new lap record.

Vote: Kast

Why so glum?

[Nuwen]

Smile, SpyreX. Nuwen loves you. If you fill up the apathy quota there'll be none for the rest of us duffers.

No plurality lynches,

especially

if it's the earliest plurality. Early pluralities are equivalent to speedlynching. In this type of game, scum wagoning gets a little wonky. If you guys don't mind me citing WIHII too heavily, it was common to see the entire scum team pile on a wagon to push it to death (and then let the remaining town players on it kill each other). Majority or no dice.

3) Is every player required to attack the chosen lynch candidate?

No. Leave players the option to damage no one during their turn. Keeping an eye on who

doesn't

do damage to whom will be useful.

If a player damages someone that isn't slated to be lynched by the majority, it's an instant lynch the next melee phase. No questions asked. Dealing damage independent of consensus is scummy enough to become a policy kill in this setup.

[SpyreX]

Its winter though I need to horde it for the hibernation.

Nuwen: town.
Tajo: town.

These are true things.

Not attacking is fine. Attacking different targets isn't. Nuwen speaks gospel regarding attacking someone else.

[Thestatusquo]

Yosarian2 replaces porkens.

[Yosarian2]

:waves:

Hi everyone. I'll probably read this game tommorow, if I don't get a chance tonight.

[Kast]

@Chamber-
My preferred plan doesn't do what you claim. It seems you missed this:

If a player attacks someone else without an extremely strong reason, we agree to kill that player first.

The punishment is only if a player attacks someone other than the lynch. If you chose to not attack the town's chosen player, then you suffer no punishment.

@Spyrex-
-False. This is a more accurate paraphrase:
Spy: Everyone MUST do it in thread AND there is NO REASON to not do it in thread.
Kast: There are reasons to not do it in thread and here they are. We should not enforce this.
Spy: You are correct. But if we all decide to do it by PM and I die, then you are scum.

I did not suggest any PM format that we should all follow. IF everyone but Player G posts actions in thread AND Spyrex dies after Player G's turn, THEN Player G should be suspected. Kast (or Kise or anyone else) should

only*

be suspected for this if Kast is Player G.**

-You seem to misunderstand the flow of events in melee phase. On your turn, choose an action to take (can be no action) and tell TSQ by PM or in thread. TSQ then posts any public dice rolls resulting from the action as well as any public outcome (ie. Player B takes a severe blow to the head and dies). After this is resolved, the next player takes his turn.

Barring feats that allow action on another player's turn, we know who is responsible for each public action. Sending in an order by PM instead of by in thread post does not automatically change whether that action is public.

@Nuwen-
-I agree that a strict majority is generally better than a plurality. However, I fear this game bogging down without a deadline. It will be bad enough slogging through several melee phases without any (public) actions.

If you know a better method of handling a deadline without any majority, then please share it. Deadline no lynch is significantly worse than deadline plurality lynch. That does make me modify my preferred plan.

My preference is that we all agree to attack (if able) the player who first reaches a strict majority. When we reach the first melee phase, the first player in initiative order will hold off on taking actions until the town reaches a lynch consensus. Once that consensus has been reached, the town will attack and kill the lynch candidate (this may take multiple melee phases).
After 3 weeks without a majority (counted from the start of the day), we kill the player with the most votes (plurality). If there is a tie, we kill the first one to reach that number.
If a player attacks someone else without an extremely strong reason, we agree to kill that player first.

Dealing damage independent of consensus is scummy enough to become a policy kill in this setup.

-Agreed with an exception for extremely good reasons. It would be bad to

policy

lynch*** a claimed cop who attacks a claimed guilty player instead of the town's lynch candidate.
-Can this offense be scummy enough to warrant immediate policy kill? Common sense argues that this can occur and rate of occurrence should vary inversely to the strength of the case on current lynch candidate. I am undecided on this point, but gut suggests immediate enforcement rather than waiting a day.

Main pro I see is lynch for objectively strong, scummy behavior. Main con I see is potential for scum sacrifice to save a powerful buddy.

@Yosarian2-
Welcome.

*-

Kast (or any other player) could reasonably be suspected for other reasons.

**-

If Spyrex flipped scum, this would not be a reason to suspect Player G. There are other circumstances which could reduce or increase the validity of suspecting Player G

***-

There are conceivably valid reasons to lynch a claimed cop who disregards the town's wishes, but policy lynching is not one of those.

[farside22]

I got a head cold right now. I have little to no energy to read or think. I hope to feel better tomorrow.

[chamber]

point 1: I'm going to attack someone each of my melee phases.
point 1.1: If there is no majority come my melee phase I'll attack whoever I feel like.
point 2: If I have a town read on the 'majority' player then I wont attack them.
point 2.1: This means I'll attack who I feel like if you majority decide somone I have a town read on.
point 3: If I have a null or scum read on the 'majority' player I will attack them.

Just so you know where I stand.


Also, kast, please stop with the walls, please.

[SpyreX]

^

This is exactly the issue with the system that is trying to be eliminated.

However, whatevs'.

P.S. if I have to scroll to read a post I'm not reading it.

[chamber]

^

This is exactly the issue with the system that is trying to be eliminated.

However, whatevs'.

P.S. if I have to scroll to read a post I'm not reading it.

In my mind its like a weak vig, and I'm in the vig every night camp.

[SpyreX]

Which would be fine if you were the only one who could do it. The problem arises when everyone starts doing it - its like having a mess of vigs and the issues it causes.

Then, of course, the other side is a bunch of people that are wounded are just asking to get picked off in the great harvest.

[chamber]

Which would be fine if you were the only one who could do it. The problem arises when everyone starts doing it - its like having a mess of vigs and the issues it causes.

Then, of course, the other side is a bunch of people that are wounded are just asking to get picked off in the great harvest.

I haven't gotten around to reading the game nuwen keeps referencing, doing so may change my mind. Until then I think every town player being a vig and vigging every night sounds like a great idea.

[Nuwen]

SpyreX speaks truth. Don't damage all willy nilly. Just don't. You become more of a liability than a VIGILANTE OF ULTIMATE JUSTICE, and if we allow random damage there's little preventing scum from teaming up with random damagers to kill off players quickly. Add that to a night kill.

Our number of mislynches (read: good) is

highest

when we damage one player at a time. Whittling down multiple players reduces our number of mislynches. We don't know at which point the scum team can overwhelm town damage during the melee phase.

Kast: http://ezinearticles.com/?To-Be-Underst ... id=3018138

Your over-convoluted posts are weighing the thread down, and your microscopic picking of SpyreX's posts leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Semantics rarely find scum.

[Nuwen]

Here's an easy link to WIHII, everyone should at least skim through the endgame analysis (starting on page 163:

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10894
http://www.quicktopic.com/43/H/Z6YbnyhVJb3m7


I was on the scum team.

The moral of damage mechanics:

control

where the damage comes from, or the town will self-destruct. That game isn't so much a scum win as it is a town loss. The big argument against group damage was that it was scum influenced - yes, it will be, but it'll be consistent and easier to splice than a group of solo players. By the end of WIHII, every town player was left on his or her own.

[Kast]

@Chamber-
Melee phase is not equivalent to night in this game. Attacking a player is equivalent to an ability that has a %chance to permanently lower the voting threshold for that specific player.

There is a normal night in which mafia can (and likely will) nightkill from among the full health townies.

Having multiple players at low health (few votes required to lynch) means scum can control the lynch by picking off their choice of weakened player (this gets worse as we approach and enter endgame).

[SpyreX]

Melee phase is not equivalent to night in this game. Attacking a player is equivalent to an ability that has a %chance to permanently lower the voting threshold for that specific player.

This doesn't make sense in relation to the rules as stated or I'm missing something.

Its alive or dead. No voting. We pick a person (or two) and do our damndest to kill them. Then night as standard.

[Yosarian2]

Ok, skimmed through the thread. Haven't had a chance to do a detailed read of the rules yet, but I'll do that tommorow, see if there's any loopholes or traps in them.

Anyway, I agree with Nuwen; if the town starts wildly pounding on each other, then the scum almost certanly win.

[Yosarian2]

Ok, looking at the rules, I'm a little fuzzy on how this works:

3) Each day will be divided into alternating sets of phases. The first phase will be a discussion phase. This is like your traditional mafia day in every way except that it does not contain voting. Feel free to vote if you wish, but I will not be keeping track of them. After this, we will enter the melee phase, which will consist of each player rolling for initiative, and then taking/or not taking an action in turn. Discussion phases will last 3 days each, and melee phases will last for 2 complete turns for every player. Discussion is still allowed during melee phases.

So, we have 3 days of "discussion", during which time no one can attack anyone. Then, when we get into the meele phase, how long do we have to make our actions/attacks or whatever? What kind of deadline are we looking at here?

[Snow_Bunny]

YEY, WAR IN HEAVEN ALL OVER AGAINNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN

/DIES

I was there too! One of the firsts fallen angels to die. And thanks to you, IIRC... ¬_¬

Any roads, I was wondering, won't mafia have a special damage ability just like in that game? I know they already have their NK, but I think we should also consider the option of them having a hidden damage source.

Our number of mislynches (read: good) is

highest

when we damage one player at a time. Whittling down multiple players reduces our number of mislynches. We don't know at which point the scum team can overwhelm town damage during the melee phase.

I dun get this. Lots of mislynches are good? How come? If we have many towns at low HP, there won't be nothing that prevents mafia to make their strikes during the day as well.

[Kast]

@All-
I can break up my larger posts into multiple smaller posts, however, I've found that people generally prefer single large posts all on a single page rather than multiple pages of posts.

Short version:

I'll try out abbreviating stuff in blue.

@Nuwen-
-A long post is not inherently convoluted. My posts have addressed multiple points and multiple players. The conciseness of every individual section is on par with other posts and is not convoluted.

Ignoring important stuff for brevity is bad play.

-Explanations, particularly for a post that contradicts another post, are necessary. Your article illustrates the value of providing explanations. The article itself is much longer than any of my posts, except the one containing example combats.

@Article- tl;dr

[Kast]

@Spyrex-
-You are free to arbitrarily choose which posts you want to read and respond to. Realize that just because you did not read it, does not mean it was not posted, and does not excuse you from addressing or responding to stuff. It is also anti-town to intentionally ignore game relevant posts.

Laziness is anti-town.

-Do you have thoughts to share on deadlines and/or what to do upon arrival at a melee phase with no consensus lynch?

Whining does not excuse avoiding topics.

-We enter melee phase. Each player rolls initiative. Each player gets two turns (run through initiative order twice), during which the player can take action(s) which may include attacking another player. We return to discussion phase. After 3 real life days, we enter melee phase again. This continues until we kill someone OR a majority votes No Lynch.

Each player starts with an amount of HP. This can be roughly converted to a lynch threshold. Each attack can similarly be converted to a chance to permanently reduce this threshold. When a player's lynch threshold is 0, he is immediately lynched.

You are missing

lots of

stuff.