Mini 870: Melee mafia. (Mod Abandoned)

[SpyreX]

So, how abouts this for a starter:

I see no reason why actions should be PM'd. All combat should occur in the thread - especially since it appears as though dicerolls will be taken care of in thread as well.

[populartajo]

Woot, Spyrex is town.

I agree with him.

Also I have no experience with these kind of dice games. I hope I can learn fast.

[Col.Cathart]

Cathart sits down near the campfire, and takes the piece of freshly roasted boar.

"All right, it's just a formality, but I'll try anyway in a peaceful manner, before the bloodshed will happen...

Who killed Terroth?"

((ho hum... votes are useless here, so I'll post something like this instead, until we'll have a good point to start discussion...

Edit, by hitting preview button: What do you mean by that chamber?))

[chamber]

Cathart sits down near the campfire, and takes the piece of freshly roasted boar.

"All right, it's just a formality, but I'll try anyway in a peaceful manner, before the bloodshed will happen...

Who killed Terroth?"

((ho hum... votes are useless here, so I'll post something like this instead, until we'll have a good point to start discussion...

Edit, by hitting preview button: What do you mean by that chamber?))

I mean he called my style annoying pregame(I'm fairly sure I've never played with him) and pointless voted me because of it, so I returned the favor.

[Kast]

@Spyrex-

I see no reason why actions should be PM'd. All combat should occur in the thread - especially since it appears as though dicerolls will be taken care of in thread as well.

I see your point, but I can also see potential reasons not to enforce this as a hard rule. Each player has different stats and feats. There are conceivably feats which would be better not announced in thread. I'm going to assume that each player can personally evaluate whether their actions would be better shared publicly or PMed privately.

Obviously a player sending their actions as a PM will draw attention to themselves; I'm also going to assume that this was taken into account by TSQ. I agree that a player who PMs actions should have more attention, I disagree that PMing actions should be interpreted as inherently scummy or anti-town.

-I dislike that this proposal for a universal guideline for town to follow doesn't include consideration for townies who have role-based reasons to break from those guidelines.

-I would appreciate if nobody confirms or denies whether they have any abilities that would be better PMed. I'm not thrilled that Spyrex and Tajo's posts appear to be soft claims of not having such roles. I also would appreciate if neither of your confirms or denies those soft claims, unless you intended them as such and have reason for doing so.

@Tajo-
Do you understand the basic combat system?
-Attacker picks a target (defender).
-Defender has an AC value.
-Attacker rolls 1d20 (20 sided die) to see if he hits the target.
--If either the die roll equals 20 OR the die roll + any attack bonuses equals or exceeds the AC value, then the attack is successful.
--If the attacker rolls a 19 or a 20*, they have a chance to make a critical hit. Attacker rolls a second d20 and if it is a successful hit, then the attack becomes a critical hit.
-Attacker rolls 1d6 (6 sided die) for damage.
--Attacker deals damage equal to the die roll + any bonuses.
--If the attacker scored a critical hit, then he deals double damage. Damage equals 2d6 + 2x any bonuses**

*-

These values were mod clarified to me as standard for this game. You should each personally check if these same values apply to yourself, but keep the results of that check private.

**-

If you have bonus damage from feats, you should check with the mod on whether that is affected.

Player A attacks Player B.
Player A has no bonuses.
Player B has AC = 15.

Player A rolls a 20-sided die and the result is 18.
18 is greater than 15 so it is a successful hit.
Player A rolls a 6-sided die and the result is 4.
Player B receives 4 damage.

Player A rolls a 20-sided die and the result is 20.
20 is a critical threat and allows Player A to roll again to determine if he made a critical hit.
Player A rolls a 20-sided die and the result is 18.
18 is greater than 15 so it is a successful critical hit.
Player A rolls two 6-sided dice and the result is 4 and 3.
Player B receives 7 damage.

Player A rolls a 20-sided die and the result is 20.
20 is a critical threat and allows Player A to roll again to determine if he made a critical hit.
Player A rolls a 20-sided die and the result is 10.
10 is less than 15 so it is not a successful critical hit.
Player A rolls a 6-sided die and the result is 3.
Player B receives 3 damage.

-I can see this game dragging out and players losing interest while waiting for their turns in melee phase. I strongly advise thinking about and deciding on what you want to do in each upcoming melee phase prior to your turn arriving.

@Col.Cathart-

ho hum... votes are useless here, so I'll post something like this instead, until we'll have a good point to start discussion...

-I'm assuming most others have thought of or considered this, but since nobody has posted, I'll go ahead and throw it out. We should discuss voting despite the lack of voting mechanic and use it as a means to communally determine who to attack.

-My understanding (based on my role + mod clarifications) is that it could take multiple melee phases to arrive at a successful lynch.

-It is possible, though unlikely, that we could identify scum for a D1 lynch, but even still, the scum could be very lucky and manage to kill another player prior to dying in the melee phase. I want to caution against simply attacking anyone you are suspicious of. If the town as a whole starts fighting ourselves, we make the previous situation much more feasible.

[SpyreX]

I was going to respond to that wall of words quote-by-quote but I'll skip that.

Treat this like a mafia game and not a mismash. We discuss, we pick a target and

everyone attacks that target.

Further, if all attacks are made in thread that eliminates even the chance for mafia to attempt to do anything but what is agreed upon.

Despite how much you want to deduce anything about my role from what I said (which I have issues with as is because there's not a good reason for it) I have made no claims about any feats, etc I have because it is irrelevant to the fact that unless I have a feat that is "win the game" eliminating the shroud for the mafia outweighs it.

We CAN lynch every night. Further, we CAN control it because there's no damage being spread out.

[Kast]

We CAN lynch every night. Further, we CAN control it

because there's no damage being spread out.

-This is false. Even if we successfully identify mafia and everyone attacks that player during the melee phase, it is possible that all of us miss the player AND that the player kills someone else. This is unlikely, but possible.

-The town has NOT YET agreed to all attack only a single target who is agreed upon and decided by the town. This is the proposal that I just put forth for discussion. I would like to hear everyone's opinions on this. I strongly believe the benefits of adopting this outweigh the risks.

-I agree that it appears to be in our best interests to only attack a single target of the town's choice. I could see townie feats that might incline a townie to disregard the rest of the town's wishes.

Further, if all attacks are made in thread that eliminates even the chance for mafia to attempt to do anything but what is agreed upon.

-Posting publicly is not inherently necessary to determine that a standard attack followed what was agreed upon. We will be told the same dice rolls and outcomes regardless of whether an action is publicly posted or PMed.

If a player attacks someone, or does some action with the same results as a standard attack, we will see the dice rolls and outcome of that attack regardless of whether it was publicly posted or PMed.

In the event that a player engages in some action with results that differ from those of a standard attack, we will still find that out know regardless of whether the player posts publicly or PMs.

-Posting publicly does not necessarily prevent mafia (or townies) from doing anything other than what is agreed upon. And if there are any feats that allow a player to do something that would be better PMed than posted publicly, the odds are overwhelmingly in favor of townies having such roles than scum.

-In the situation where a town player has a feat which allows action other than the standard attack during melee, which choice do you believe is better for the player to take?
1) Not take his special action
2) Take his action publicly
3) Take his action by PM
4) None of the above/something else

Despite how much you want to deduce anything about my role from what I said (which I have issues with as is because there's not a good reason for it) I have made no claims about any feats, etc I have because it is irrelevant to the fact that

unless I have a feat that is "win the game" eliminating the shroud for the mafia outweighs it.

-This is the same BS that KMD-scum was spouting in your recently completed SC2 game.
-Your post betrays an assumption that you have made. It's out there for everyone (including scum) to see and invites townies to share the same information about themselves. At least one other player (tajo) has already followed your invitation. This is important to stop before it continues.
-It is completely ludicrous to claim that I am trying to draw you to confirm anything about feats you have. I have asked you explicitly to NOT confirm.
-You have reduced the "shroud". Please stop reducing it any further. Getting upset and claiming that you have not reduced it does not stop that. What's done is done; your reaction right now is harmful to damage control efforts.

[chamber]

I say this with no offence intended but please tell me all your posts aren't going to be walls like these 2.

[Nuwen]

Treat this like a mafia game and not a mismash. We discuss, we pick a target and

everyone attacks that target.

Quoted for emphasis.

Tajo already mentioned WIHII, another game with unusual damage -> lynch mechanics. Towards the endgame, the town began cannibalizing itself and hurting at random. The scum team, which I was on, quickly did a bit of math and calculated that if the town continued to issue rogue damage for x days, we could swoop in and take out players en masse.

Further, if all attacks are made in thread that eliminates even the chance for mafia to attempt to do anything but what is agreed upon.

Before responding to this,

mod signal! Can feat use be sent independent of damage, or can a feat be triggered via PMs prior to a damaging post and still take effect?

Passive feats (+ac, %damage reduction, %attack increase) will make themselves patent whether that player chooses to reveal them or not.

[Thestatusquo]

All feats are separate of damage. That is, damage does not automatically trigger feats, nor do feats automatically trigger an attack, both are separate actions and must be sent to me as separate actions.

[SpyreX]

Sigh. Its going to be that kind of game. Nothing like apathy seeping in on page 2.

@Mod: If actions are PM'd to you and the results are posted do said results include the name of who undertook the action?

Your post betrays an assumption that you have made. It's out there for everyone (including scum) to see and invites townies to share the same information about themselves. At least one other player (tajo) has already followed your invitation. This is important to stop before it continues.

And your statement and this and all others in fact is holding to the assumption that regardless of what abilities I may have this is still the right course of action. Wooo

Of course the fact you are arguing that in-thread actions will, ultimately, hurt the town more than help because of

mystic roles

well.

[Nuwen]

After that clarification, there's no fear of public damage revealing the details of activated feats.

[Nuwen]

Let's talk about voting mechanics. Someone already mentioned that "votes are useless," but that need not be the case. If we all agree to damage as a single body (which we should - anyone proposing "every man for himself" damage is obvscum), voting patterns will be key. An unofficial vote count is just as handy as an official one. Any volunteers? I'll do it if no one else chimes in, but I'm historically lazy with updates and counts.

[SpyreX]

Votes are far from useless and yes we should be using them.

If you feel like volunteering I'm down. I'd rather not.

[Thestatusquo]

If a player would see an action being made, then the mod will dictate to the players what they see, just as a DM mitigates the action in a game of DnD.

[Col.Cathart]

Kast: TL;DR. Sorry, it's too late for me to actually keep up with all those piled letters. I'll try tomorrow.

I can volunteer for making unofficial vote counts. I don't think that will be a problem for me.

[SpyreX]

Well if we see who attacks who regardless then I don't care as much.

Although that is ambiguous enough that IF we go to this PM format and I die to "an ogre" instead of a player name kill Kise asap.

[populartajo]

Thx for the info, Kast.

There are 3 things I would like to happen in this game. Spyrex and Nuwen are already in the same boat.

1. Spreading damage leads to terrible sad events. You are not a crazy monkey hungry for blood. For reference, look for War in Heaven 2 in Theme Park. Nice read also.

2. As proposed in that game also, we should maintain a voting system. Voting patterns and such.

3. Kast, stop walloposting ffs!!

[chamber]

I'm all for voting but I'm not attacking someone I have a town read on.

[populartajo]

I'm all for voting but I'm not attacking someone I have a town read on.

Sure, if you have good reasoning that shows why you have a town read on determinate player, then Ill probably support your cause.

[Nuwen]

Although that is ambiguous enough that IF we go to this PM format and I die to "an ogre" instead of a player name kill Kise asap.

Whelp, I found the perfect replacement.

[Kast]

@Spyrex-

Although that is ambiguous enough that IF we go to this PM format and I die to "an ogre" instead of a player name kill Kise asap.

-Who is Kise? Kast is not Kise. The implication that Kast is proposing we use some "PM format" is misleading and your proposed reaction to death by "an ogre" makes no sense. The claim that some player named Kise (or anything else) is proposing we use some "PM format" is not supported by any posts so far in this game.

@Mod-

-Can you please provide an example post of example combat results?
-If a player submits an action publicly and also PMs you a different action, which action would you use? Is such a situation even possible/allowed? ie. Do we know that a player's posted action in thread is the action that the player will take (assuming no feat that specifically allows this)?

@Voting system-
Assuming everyone agrees to the proposal in general, we should flesh out details of how we actually implement this.
1) Strict majority?
2) Deadline?
3) Is every player required to attack the chosen lynch candidate?
4) How do we enforce the chosen system?
5) Other issues?

My preference is that we all agree to attack (if able) the player who first reaches a strict majority. The attacks should begin in the melee phase following the discussion phase during which the player hits a majority or the same melee phase during which the player reached a majority.
If we go through 4 discussion phases (12+ real life days) without reaching a strict majority, then we kill the player who first reached the current plurality.
If a player attacks someone else without an extremely strong reason, we agree to kill that player first.

Any system should not be used as an artificial constraint against solutions for town victory that arise (particularly near endgame).

[chamber]

I'm all for voting but I'm not attacking someone I have a town read on.

[Kast]

@Chamber-
You posted that already.

[chamber]

You seemed to miss the point so I thought I'd repeat myself.