Newbie 841 - Game over!

[almightybob]

I thought you played well almightybob. A valiant effort that only a cop could take away. As for the military thing...it came up after Pablo was lynched so it didn't affect scumhunting.

Thanks
Ah yes, so it did. My mistake then. As VRK said, I think the allegiances/alliances only applies to in-forum ones. Although I suppose if I started policy-lynching English people that would count too

[havingfitz]

Although I suppose if I started policy-lynching English people that would count too

As a colonial living in the UK...I could live with the policy-lynching you refer to.

Where do you live in Scotland. I spent a week in Aug up there.

[PaltryExcuse]

I agree with fitz you did a decent job of defending yourself. Problem was DN acted

real

scummy D1 and there was a cop pursuer.
Just wondering fitz, during your re-read, did you notice my response to DN's infamous 'nothing serious' post? I think I might've been lynched if that was brought forward D3.

[almightybob]

Where do you live in Scotland. I spent a week in Aug up there.

Edinburgh for uni, originally from Glasgow. Take it you were at the Festival then?

[havingfitz]

Just wondering fitz, during your re-read, did you notice my response to DN's infamous 'nothing serious' post? I think I might've been lynched if that was brought forward D3.

Yes. Not sure it would have got you lynched alone but it at least closed the gap between us with respect to our suspicions (mine real...yours fabricatd) towards OMG.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Thanks for the link, VRK. It's probably my playstyle that makes me look townie. However, I really want to actually play town so I know how I'll act then. Hrmm...

Better not act too differently! Sucks to lose due to meta.

As you go forward, you'll hear talk about people's meta - if you've ever played a pen and paper RPG you'll understand the term. Basically it's a way of analyzing someone's play to determine whether they're town or not.

Everyone plays differently when they're scum as opposed to town. In the good players, the difference is almost unnoticeable. By analyzing how someone has played before, you can use that information to determine whether they're town or scum this time around.

So your best bet is to try to play the same way every time. As a newbie, it's going to be a few games until you begin to establish a meta, because most newbies tend to change their style naturally as they get more comfortable with the game. Try to aim for minimizing the differences now, while you're still fresh to the game and you're ideas and concepts are still malleable. It's very difficult to change a meta later, because you have to retrain habits that you've established over time.

From day 1, you should always think, regardless of alignment, "If I was Town, what would I do in this situation?". Granted, 70 - 80% of the time this is going to be a moot thought, because you will be town aligned. However, it will go a long way towards making your scum play mimic your Town play as closely as possible, which is what you really want to do.

No one can completely make their scum play match their town play - the two roles are diametrically opposite, and there are things that you must do as scum that you'd never do as town. So everyone will have some sort of meta, because this opposition is what the meta springs from. The really good players can mask it well enough that a meta analysis of their play is a wash.

[PaltryExcuse]

I meant more along these lines:
Starbuck herself said that someone helped DN get by Day 1. You knew going into Day 4 it was me. I think that's a prime example.
a) I'm the only one who noticed and commented on the post.
b) I'm obviously flabbergasted at the response, and yet I don't see it as scummy.
a+b=Evidence?
I dunno. My N2 reread made that post scary beyond belief.

[havingfitz]

I think Roo's replacement just meant that scum helped DN get by and since we both worked to get OMG voted off...and her focus was on me...I don't think your comments would have been that big a deal. They may have helped had therre been any day four discussions but I don't think they were different enough from anything I was saying to shift the target to you.

[Starbuck]

DeathNote was so scummy on Day 1. I just have no idea how no one else saw it at the time.

And yes, I know I screwed up. It hit me that we were in LYLO when I was at dinner. People do make mistakes.

[havingfitz]

It hit me that we were in LYLO when I was at dinner.

You're saying you didn't realize we were in LYLO when you made your vote? I don't believe that for one second. Even I will give you more credit than that. You were just set on voting me. Even if we weren't in LYLO that quick a vote was uncalled for. You just pulled the rug out of ~seven weeks of the town's efforts. Admit it.

[Starbuck]

No, I won't admit it, because that's not what happened.

I understand that you are upset, but there's no reason to be a jerk.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

It hit me that we were in LYLO when I was at dinner.

You're saying you didn't realize we were in LYLO when you made your vote? I don't believe that for one second. Even I will give you more credit than that. You were just set on voting me. Even if we weren't in LYLO that quick a vote was uncalled for. You just pulled the rug out of ~seven weeks of the town's efforts. Admit it.

Ok this is unnecessary - take it easy fitz. You're not a mind reader, so I think benefit of the doubt is due here.

I see this from both sides, and I wasn't emotionally involved in the game as the Mod. This is coming dangerously close to taking this situaiton personally, which is against the rules in every Mafia game on this site, yet happens all too frequently. You guys are here to have fun and not take things personally. Time to apologize and let things go.

Did Starbuck screw up? Yep, she did, and she'll probably never do it again for what that's worth. But you're screwing up just as bad by hounding her for it.

[PaltryExcuse]

So, in your opinion VRK (or anyone else) on the topic of the T-chan v. Bob situation, is Pablo's non-response on the case, fitz's defense of DN, or my wishy-washy accusation the most telling of scumminess?

[almightybob]

So, in your opinion VRK (or anyone else) on the topic of the T-chan v. Bob situation, is Pablo's non-response on the case, fitz's defense of DN, or my wishy-washy accusation the most telling of scumminess?

Pablo's non-response: Town-me would have found strange that he didn't comment at all, but not neccessarily indicative of scum.

Fitz's defence: I would have found more scummy, since it came before the cop claim and so perhaps would have been scumfitz trying to easy pressure on his scumbuddy.

Your accusation: I take it you mean this?

@Bob: I think the major problem with your argument as of right now is that one post. It's still making you look suspicious in my eyes. On the other hand, the volume of posts where DeathNote points towards NewbScum is a plus on your side. I'm watching you.

Town-me wouldn't have seen that as scummy at the time, it seems as if you've considered the initial argument and my responses. And on reread if Town-me became suspicious by it, I would have probably been appeased by the fact that you put DN as your top scum suspect at the start of D2.

Of the three, Town-me would have probably found fitz's reaction to be scummiest.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

I don't recall exactly, but was Pablo's non-response due to being asked directly what he thought, or that he just never commented on it?

If it's that he just never commented, then I think the scummiest move goes for the wishy-washy accusation. Being asked a direct question should always generate a response, and I don't think you should stop asking until you get an answer. Wishy-washy is a scum hallmark. Scum have to fence sit to leave their options open for the next day.

A good scumtell is someone who is wishy-washy suddenly takes a stand later in the game. Their options have narrowed down and now they have to push for a particular lynch outcome. That happened in this game (re: PE's sudden interest in Pablo on Day 3), and I've seen it a lot in other games.

I think the easier question to answer is the reverse - which of the three was the most town-tell. For a Newbie game, fitz defense of someone moves him up on the Town scale for me. It's not a scumtell to defend someone, as long as the attacks are crappy or bad logic. In that case, you're actually defending someone by showing that their attacker's logic is incorrect. Now, the person may still be scum, but I don't think that using bad logic to catch them is the way to go about it. This helps focus the town on catching scum using good logic, and since you're trying to watch out for the town's best interests, and not one specific player, that makes you more likely to be Town.

Combine that with the fact that fitz is a newbie (it's only his 2nd game?) and this actually becomes a wash for me. Newbies don't know any better, and they sure as hell don't think about the ramifications of their actions for "tomorrow". There are a host of questions that are situational - is the player being attacked acting scummy? What's the experience level of the defending player? Are the attacks good? Are they coming from another noob or a more experienced player? Even with DN acting noticeably scummy and fitz defending him, that would be a newbie scum mistake, and fitz should have been on the chopping block immediately. He also should have been the investigation target on Night 2 (hint, hint T-chan!!!).

I think a big issue was ronnie lurking and then flaking when she did - it really caused T-chan to waste an investigation to try to get alignment information on someone who was lurking. This is a great example of how lurking can really kill your team's chances.

If this were to happen in a mini or large game, where there are experienced players, red flags would fly all over the place, but in a Newbie game I think this is more of a null-tell.

This post turned into a lot of random thoughts. Hope it's cohesive enough!

[PaltryExcuse]

Thanks AB! I guess Pablo's reaction is more telling based on what else he was doing at the time, part of me still sees it as a possible scum-reaction to pressure on the scumbuddy (he wasn't inactive, he was just not saying anything). Obviously in this case, he was just distracted by ABR.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

So, in your opinion VRK (or anyone else) on the topic of the T-chan v. Bob situation, is Pablo's non-response on the case, fitz's defense of DN, or my wishy-washy accusation the most telling of scumminess?

Pablo's non-response: Town-me would have found strange that he didn't comment at all, but not neccessarily indicative of scum.

Exactly.

Fitz's defence: I would have found more scummy, since it came before the cop claim and so perhaps would have been scumfitz trying to easy pressure on his scumbuddy.

Your accusation: I take it you mean this?

@Bob: I think the major problem with your argument as of right now is that one post. It's still making you look suspicious in my eyes. On the other hand, the volume of posts where DeathNote points towards NewbScum is a plus on your side. I'm watching you.

Town-me wouldn't have seen that as scummy at the time, it seems as if you've considered the initial argument and my responses. And on reread if Town-me became suspicious by it, I would have probably been appeased by the fact that you put DN as your top scum suspect at the start of D2.

Of the three, Town-me would have probably found fitz's reaction to be scummiest.

/agree. And I think that the Town as a whole made a big error in not lynching fitz on Day 3. Starbuck is not the only one guilty of tunnel vision this game, as the Pablo wagon was led by T-chan. The rest of you played sheep and it worked out for the scum in the end.

[PaltryExcuse]

VRK, you've answered my questions and more! Thanks as well for another view point. Obviously, reading those two posts now, I think I got a bit to learn.

In T-chan's position I also would've investigated RR. If she was scum, there was nothing for town to go on other than "lurking".

I thought my lack of case-making was a tell, so I wanted to be the first to make a case on Day 3. T-chan's stalling actually helped me as I thought Pablo was the least likely of the remaining 4 for T-chan's investigation. I could point a finger, and then be like "I didn't suspect a townie!" Didn't think that through, as VRK would of been on the prowl instantly.

[PaltryExcuse]

Starbuck is not the only one guilty of tunnel vision this game, as the Pablo wagon was led by T-chan.

I think I aided in making sure T-chan was thinking a Pablo lynch was a good lynch.

[Pablo Molinero]

Yeah, I'm waiting to T-c to show up and post thoughts. I'm still astounded 2/3 townies thought I was the good lynch for Day 3.

T-c, when you show up, where/when did you play mafia before mafiascum.net? It seems that your ideas of scum-tells are far different than what I come to think is the norm.

VRK - Did I have any ground to stand on when bringing up the Day 1 townie-lynch (which fitz/PE both were both a part of and I was not)?

(Currently doing NaNoWriMo, so I'm having less time than expected. Hopefully more later.)

[almightybob]

In T-chan's position I also would've investigated RR. If she was scum, there was nothing for town to go on other than "lurking".

That wouldn't really be a problem though. It would have been far better for T-chan to clear/out someone who was generating a lot of suspicion and/or being active, since pushing a mislynch on someone who is already under genuine Townie suspicion is far easier for scum (as you saw).

[havingfitz]

It hit me that we were in LYLO when I was at dinner.

You're saying you didn't realize we were in LYLO when you made your vote? I don't believe that for one second. Even I will give you more credit than that. You were just set on voting me. Even if we weren't in LYLO that quick a vote was uncalled for. You just pulled the rug out of ~seven weeks of the town's efforts. Admit it.

Ok this is unnecessary - take it easy fitz. You're not a mind reader, so I think benefit of the doubt is due here.

Agreed...I'm not a mind reader.

I agree it would be good to hear from Starbuck...especially since we now know she is town and is set to play the deciding vote in Day 4 if we don't get it right today. Please get into the game Starbuck....

You did replace confirmed town and if this game goes to day four....you hold the deciding vote.

Her role is pivitol (if we don't get today's vote right)

I just hope we're right on Pablo and he flips scum since Starbuck has her sights locked on me and if she's forced to choose between me and Paltry on day four....Paltry will have played a good game and scum will be in line to win.

-- If Pablo is being truthful with his last post...at least give me the courtesy of making my case on Paltry before you go through with your chiseled in stone vote for me.
I'll wait to go to the trouble until VRK confirms but we have all put too much effort into this game to see it go down as a quick loss to scum.

.... Nope, you guys are going into LyLo. Good luck, Starbuck.

I admit I'm frustrated at the way day three transpired and day four started but I at least think Starbuck should elaborate on what her thought processes were and not attribute the day four quick vote to not knowing we were in LYLO. And there is no need to call anyone names. I'm not trying to make anything personal...I've giving my opinion on game events.

I'm enjoying everyone's post game comments and hope to file them away and would be just as interested in SB's if they had any content to them. Sorry and I forgot isn't a whole lot to take away from the key player at game's end.

I've enjoyed both games I have played in but there is more room for improvement (for me) than I care to admit.

[havingfitz]

Where do you live in Scotland. I spent a week in Aug up there.

Edinburgh for uni, originally from Glasgow. Take it you were at the Festival then?

Yes...we went to teh Festival. Stayed most of the time south of St Andrews (near Pittenweem). Loved it up there.

Cheers

[PaltryExcuse]

Yeah, I'm waiting to T-c to show up and post thoughts. I'm still astounded 2/3 townies thought I was the good lynch for Day 3.

I think fitz had the choice of research me, or go for you along with his original suspicions. So fitz went with his gut, you.

That wouldn't really be a problem though. It would have been far better for T-chan to clear/out someone who was generating a lot of suspicion and/or being active, since pushing a mislynch on someone who is already under genuine Townie suspicion is far easier for scum (as you saw).

Here's my list (from my word doc) of who I thought she would investigate and why:
1. ronnieroo / replacement
- if scum, hard to pinpoint either way
- is being replaced, so you're gonna get a fresh new outlook if town

2. havingfitz
- odd, odd behaviour
- has 2 out of 5 possible survivors aiming at him, with one being possible scum

3. PaltryExcuse (me)
- agreed with her too easily perhaps day 2?
- re-read Day 1 and didn't like my vote post <= Main worry

4. Pablo Molinero
- targeted by fitz
- going after ABR at the end of Day 2

5. ABR
- sucked up to her at the end of day 2
- odd behaviour at end of day 2
- probably town based on Bob's vote

It's hypothetical, but meh.

[Starbuck]

T-chan said that she was active on this site, and that she just makes alts all the time. She said it sometime during the game. I was trying to figure out who she might be.