Newbie 841 - Game over!

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Role Reveal:

havingfitz (CancerBottle) [col]Townie almightybob ^ (DeathNote ^) [col]Mafia Roleblocker Albert B. Rampage (Mafia_failure) [col]Doc MiteyMouse ^ [col]Townie RayFrost (OMGLyncher) [col]Townie Pablo Molinero * [col]Townie PaltryExcuse [col]Mafia Goon Starbuck (ronnieroo) [col]Townie Tororingu-chan [col]Cop

---

Night Actions:

Night 1:

DeathNote blocks ronnieroo.
ABR protects Pablo Molinero.
PaltryExcuse kills MiteyMouse.
Toro investigates DeathNote.

Night 2:

ABR protects Tororingu-chan.
PaltryExcuse kills ABR.
Toro investigates ronnieroo.

Night 3:

PaltryExcuse kills Tororingu-chan.
Toro misses deadline.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Everyone should use this time to post thoughts and observations about the game. Ask questions and try to figure out what went wrong (and right) with your play and how you can learn from it and improve. Be polite in pointing out mistakes made by others! Conversely, if someone points something out, learn from it – don’t get offended!!

My Observations

:

Post 538:

Ah, I guess that depends on opinion then~~ ^_^ I should think that anyone wouldn't want to die at this stage.... >_>;;

Bad assumption. This is a common misconception in Mafia – I have to stay alive to help my team. Due to the numbers, it is actually less necessary for a Townie to “need” to stay alive than a Mafia. In fact, it is usually the better option for the Townie to get lynched out of the game, especially if it will eliminate him as a possible suspect going forward. This is especially true when the Townie has done a lot of scummy things and the scum are likely to use him as a scapegoat if he survives until the endgame.
This is even worse with new players who are given power roles (cop, doc, etc.). They mistakenly believe that the Town can’t possibly win without them, so if they do something scummy they tend to dig themselves in deeper trying to hide their PR status, making themselves more of a target and distracting the Town from finding a Mafia. If you screw up so badly that you’re distracting the Town from finding scum, I believe your best bet is to get lynched and give the Town a chance tomorrow.
By no means should you just roll over and admit defeat – fight like hell. Make the scum work to lynch you. That way it may be easier to find them later on by the veracity they needed to use to push your case.
It’s a balancing act, and it gets easier with time.

@Toro: Don't EVER fail to submit a Night action as a Town PR just because you think you're going to be killed. What would have happened if Paltry hadn't gotten his kill in before the deadline? It has happened!!

You had a good game for your first. There are some rough patches in your logic, but overall you did a great job as the Cop.

In the future, when you get a guilty result, you may want to consider asking pointed questions about how the guilty person feels about the other players, and make him/her answer in SPECIFICS. You need to do as much as possible to get him/her to either narrow down the field, or out his/her partner completely.


@Starbuck: You should know better than to throw a vote in LyLo without letting everyone speak. LONG DAYS = GOOD FOR TOWN.

VERY poor play - tunnel vision lost the game for the town after your cop did an excellent job of putting the town in a FANTASTIC position to win the game.

Day 3 was a giant clusterfuck, and you should have taken the time to have a discussion. You may have gotten something that made you reconsider your position.

[PaltryExcuse]

Hey all! So... I don't know what happened day 3 either, but it went my way so I'm not complaining. If you have any questions for me I'll be glad to answer them, but I'd really like some commentary on my play because this was my first game and I'd like to play more.

I have some questions though (sound familiar?):
Is not commenting on a case really scummy? I think it can be. I still find it weird to the end of Day 2 everyone but Pablo had commented on the Bob v. T-chan debacle.

If anyone who was killed or lynched before Day 3 (ABR, RayFrost, MiteyMouse) kept up with the game, did you suspect me? And why? Hope to play with you all again soon.

@T-Chan: If I play with you again, please let me be on your side. You, single-handed, put me in the NK the doc or lose situation. Why did you lynch Pablo so soon after my vote?

@Pablo: I liked your defense on Day 2, but I needed to discredit it. Fun fun fun start to Day 3 with you. Hopefully you felt the same.

@AlmightyBob, my valiant scum partner... your situation was doomed, but hey, win for you, no? You really helped me out, whether or not it was deliberate, by speed-ending day 2.

@havingfitz: DN and I wanted to take you as far as we could due to the craziness on Day 1. Even though Day 1 was moving slow, that vote put a huge target on you for the rest of the game.

@Starbuck: Thanks for subbing in. I honestly thought your tunneling was a feint to make me feel safe. Obviously, I was wrong. Still, you came in guns-a-blazin' at havingfitz like from my wildest dream.

@VRK: Thanks muchly for modding and everything else! Couldn't have played without you! I appreciate the fact that you did so while moving around early on. Do you have any comments / questions about my gameplay?

[Starbuck]

I honestly felt that havingfitz was the last scum, which is why I voted him. I really didn't get a scum read on Paltry at all, so kudos to you, Paltry. I realized after the fact (and eating dinner) that I should wait and let the game play out, but by the time I got back to unvote, Paltry had already voted.


I'm seriously wondering why T-chan voted for Pablo yesterday.

[havingfitz]

T-c....you played very well IMO and it's too bad we couldn't have made your good work pay off.

Pablo...we both thought the other was scum. Both wrong. I enjoyed playing with you and hopefully have learned a few things even in a losing effort.

Paltry. Great game. I maintained a level of suspicion towards you (the too townie gut feel) but spent my time on people who gave me more to work with. My bad.

I definitely could have played better and need to keeper a wider view of the game.

Starbuck....

-- If Pablo is being truthful with his last post...at least give me the courtesy of making my case on Paltry before you go through with your chiseled in stone vote for me.

I'll wait to go to the trouble until VRK confirms but we have all put too much effort into this game to see it go down as a quick loss to scum.

....you condemned me from the start. Did not want anything to do with my defense and did not even consider the possibility that you were wrong. Very disheartening after such a good start by the town. I am speechless and can not believe you did not even give me the chance I asked for above. A great town effort tossed to the side.

As for the allegiance question...I am also in the military and earlier in the game I had almost mentioned something in that regard. I didn't because of this line in the rules:

Do not bring outside influences into the game - this includes

threats, bribes, wagers, promises,

alliances

, etc.

My question to you was not intended to 'start anything' or infer anything negative. Since you had mentioned your military affiliation (which I took as an allegiance ... or as te rule mentions, alliance) I was simply asking for your take on the rule. I thought you had played a bit longer than you have so maybe I should have just posed it directly to the IC or VRK but I think that would have come across worse than just asking you. That went wrong.


As for everyone else in the game...it was a pleasure.

[PaltryExcuse]

Oh, also Starbuck, who would've you been leaning towards as scum if yesterday we did lynch fitz?

[PaltryExcuse]

Thanks to both of you by the way for the compliments. I just have to figure out what it means to be 'too townie' or how that translates to my gameplay.

[Pablo Molinero]

Aw. Dammit.

I honestly wasn't sure who was the scum in the end. On one side, there was the "I don't think DN/Bob is scum" of havingfitz and on the other side we have the fence-sitting, never-quite-committal PE going after me guns-a-blazin' on Day 3. I should have hammered more on your personality/playstyle flip on Day 3 but you sent me into survival-mode. Great call bringing fitz with you to endgame, PE, you manipulated him and T-c all the way.

More later, I gotta jet for now.

[havingfitz]

@havingfitz: DN and I wanted to take you as far as we could due to the craziness on Day 1. Even though Day 1 was moving slow, that vote put a huge target on you for the rest of the game.

Now that's an endorsement I could live without.

I did think I put a fair sized target on myself with my efforts towards OMG and my comments about not suspecting the hammer vote. Once Mitey and then ABR got NK'ed...both of whom had voted for me...I had a feeling I was being set up a bit for later. I almost asked to get lynched in day three so that it would come down to Pablo and you since Starbuck seemed set on lynching me. In hindsight I wish I had self voted to end day three.

[PaltryExcuse]

I had to get rid of you Pablo. I was trying to subtly push the town that way, but couldn't once the case against DN came out.
And about the fence-sitting, that probably stems more from a lack of experience than anything. I tried to think "what would town me do?"... and then realized I've never played as town on forums. Very confusing.

[PaltryExcuse]

Honestly, I'd prefer to invoke an opinion either way. I think I skated by due to a lack of conviction in posts... but I still remained an active part (I think by the end of Day 2 I was second to T-chan in number of posts). The Mitey kill was to protect DN (we thought she might be aiming in his direction) and the ABR vote was because I thought he would be hard to get lynched and he might be aiming at you. The fact that both targetted you was just a bonus prize.

[havingfitz]

Paltry...re: my questions about when mafia knows their partner role. Since you knew DN was a roleblocker did that 50-50 chance there was a cop and doc affect your play any...did you suspect TC was a cop and did it cause you to try and distance yourself from almightybob/DN? Why did you NK ABR?

[Albert B. Rampage]

Starbuck screwed up in a very shameful fashion. Way to go to show newbies how to win.

[PaltryExcuse]

1. About the 50-50 thing: I had to play to survive. I remember, when doing my re-read during the beginning stages of Day 2, that the easiest person for me to do a case against was... DeathNote. His 'nothing serious' comment, coupled with DN's posts being able to be replaced with 'I agree' for the most part made him bussable. I realized it, but I knew that if there was it was T-chan.
**Sidenote: DN wanted to RB T-chan N1. And my original gut was to kill ABR N1. Imagine how things would've played out differently.

2. See above. Except replace 'aiming at you' with 'aiming at me'.

[havingfitz]

In fact, it is usually the better option for the Townie to get lynched out of the game, especially if it will eliminate him as a possible suspect going forward. This is especially true when the Townie has done a lot of scummy things and the scum are likely to use him as a scapegoat if he survives until the endgame.
......................If you screw up so badly that you’re distracting the Town from finding scum, I believe your best bet is to get lynched and give the Town a chance tomorrow.
By no means should you just roll over and admit defeat – fight like hell. Make the scum work to lynch you.

Just re-read this. I fought like hell too long after having admittedly a lot of scummy actions that could point suspicion on me. Even with the fight like hell push I wish I had deferred to the lynch on day three since the lynch on day four was more of a foregone conclusion than I imagined it could/would be.

[PaltryExcuse]

EBWOP:

I realized it, but I knew that if there was it was T-chan.

Alright, that was a horrible sentence. I'm not editing anymore for content though I should be, guh.
What it should say: I realized the ucky-situation, but I also know that if there was a cop, it'd be T-chan.

Basically, I couldn't play with the little information I didn't know, and had to play defensively.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

In fact, it is usually the better option for the Townie to get lynched out of the game, especially if it will eliminate him as a possible suspect going forward. This is especially true when the Townie has done a lot of scummy things and the scum are likely to use him as a scapegoat if he survives until the endgame.
......................If you screw up so badly that you’re distracting the Town from finding scum, I believe your best bet is to get lynched and give the Town a chance tomorrow.
By no means should you just roll over and admit defeat – fight like hell. Make the scum work to lynch you.

Just re-read this. I fought like hell too long after having admittedly a lot of scummy actions that could point suspicion on me. Even with the fight like hell push I wish I had deferred to the lynch on day three since the lynch on day four was more of a foregone conclusion than I imagined it could/would be.

No I think you played correctly. ABR put it bluntly above, but nevertheless it is true: Starbuck should not have rushed to the lynch on Day 4. She had a horrible case of tunnel vision and it worked in PE's favor.

PE never got examined for his fence-sitting and lack of commitment, and I think if Starbuck, who I believe is an extremely thorough player normally, would have not jumped the gun and gone back and re-read the game she would have seen it.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Paltry...re: my questions about when mafia knows their partner role. Since you knew DN was a roleblocker did that 50-50 chance there was a cop and doc affect your play any...did you suspect TC was a cop and did it cause you to try and distance yourself from almightybob/DN? Why did you NK ABR?

I'm not so sure it does affect your play. It probably makes you PR hunt a bit more, but as scum you have certain priorities: don't look scummy, and act like a Townie and go after anyone else who does look scummy, including your partner.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Thanks to both of you by the way for the compliments. I just have to figure out what it means to be 'too townie' or how that translates to my gameplay.

Too Townie

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

As for the allegiance question...I am also in the military and earlier in the game I had almost mentioned something in that regard. I didn't because of this line in the rules:

Do not bring outside influences into the game - this includes

threats, bribes, wagers, promises,

alliances

, etc.

My question to you was not intended to 'start anything' or infer anything negative. Since you had mentioned your military affiliation (which I took as an allegiance ... or as te rule mentions, alliance) I was simply asking for your take on the rule. I thought you had played a bit longer than you have so maybe I should have just posed it directly to the IC or VRK but I think that would have come across worse than just asking you. That went wrong.

Ah that rule. I was wondering what you were talking about! I believe, in that context, it is more aimed towards blackballing someone on the site ("vote how I tell you or I'll make sure you never play in another one of VRK's games again").

Using your alliances

on the site

to influence how others play. As stated, outside allegiances have nothing to do with MS.net.

[almightybob]

YES!

PE

: you absolute legend. I was shouting and cheering you on from beyond the grave the whole way.

Since we never got to talk at all, I'll do it now

Props for picking up that I had practically cleared ABR on D2 and promptly offing him. A little lucky that he turned out doc, but I had him figured as a more-likely-than-not PR because he was acting pretty scummy but in a "don't NK me scum, I'm so useful to you!" way. We got lucky there, but you made the right decisions.

Also very well played getting Pablo lynched D3 - you clearly saw that taking fitz to the endgame with Starbuck would make life much easier. I was willing you deperately to move on Pablo, hoping telepathy would finally kick in for me I'm glad you realised it too. If it had been you-Pablo-Starbuck at LyLo, I think this might have gone the other way.

For your first game, you played scum really well. I wish I'd been here from the start, it would have been great fun planning with you etc Very well played scumbuddy.




After T-chan's cop claim my first instinct was damage limitation. Since I'd just posted a PBPA, I wanted to end discussion as soon as possible and make any further posts on D2 null-tells, hence my lack of fight. I wanted to fight it, but I thought it would probably be best for the scum team as a whole if I made my own wagon useless. Plus the fact that I worked my ass off before the claim, and none of you seemed to be buying it, discouraged me from trying.

T-chan

: well played making me post my thoughts on everyone before claiming against me. It could well have cleared a few extra Townies for free, and practically cleared ABR. Luckily I was starting to think your epic tunnelling was actually cop-hounding, so I was pretty reserved and balanced in my opinions. I thought you played well on D2, but your D3 was sub-par. You seemed to take the fact that you were clear as a sign to sit back and relax, when you should have been pressing the advantage and scumhunting hard.

ABR

: were you playing scummy to avoid the NKs? Because if I were Town, my case on you D2 would have been exactly the same, except I would have believed it.

Starbuck

: throwing down a vote in LyLo like that was a big mistake, especially as the only confirmed Town. You should have been the one carefully weighing up the cases PE and fitz would inevitably have had to prepare on each other. I can't really blame you though, PE played it well to engineer this exact situation.

fitz

: No idea what the whole military debacle was about, and it seemed to derail scumhunting towards the end of the Day. I think your late-D1 behaviour and subsequent defence was the killer for you.

Pablo

: I expected you to spot PE's plan when he voted for you on D3. Given the inevitable NK of T-chan, the scum would want to take whoever Starbuck would be gunning for. You seemed the most level-headed of the remaining Townies, so I thought you'd catch it.

Good game guys, I really enjoyed playing and reading it

[PaltryExcuse]

Paltry...re: my questions about when mafia knows their partner role. Since you knew DN was a roleblocker did that 50-50 chance there was a cop and doc affect your play any...did you suspect TC was a cop and did it cause you to try and distance yourself from almightybob/DN? Why did you NK ABR?

I'm not so sure it does affect your play. It probably makes you PR hunt a bit more, but as scum you have certain priorities: don't look scummy, and act like a Townie and go after anyone else who does look scummy, including your partner.

Ya, that's what I was saying. I thought about the possibility, but really, my survival was paramount at that point due to DN's flub.

[PaltryExcuse]

@AB: Awesome. So I did catch your hints! Thanks for the support, if I were superstitious, I'd say my gut feelings were coming from you (but the ABR thing was definitely an in-game help).

About Starbuck's tunneling: I knew she wanted fitz gone, but I unvoted for two reasons.
1. Get T-chan on my side. Pablo commending me, fitz's vote, all paled in comparison to swaying T-chan.
2. Figure out where Starbuck stood on the me vs. Pablo possibility. I got the impression it was something like 80% fitz scum, 15% Paltry scum, 5% Pablo scum. Once I realized that, it was just timing for T-chan.

[havingfitz]

fitz

: No idea what the whole military debacle was about, and it seemed to derail scumhunting towards the end of the Day.

I thought you played well almightybob. A valiant effort that only a cop could take away. As for the military thing...it came up after Pablo was lynched so it didn't affect scumhunting.

[PaltryExcuse]

Thanks for the link, VRK. It's probably my playstyle that makes me look townie. However, I really want to actually play town so I know how I'll act then. Hrmm...