Mini 873 Plainview Game Over

[foilist13]

Have you noticed that you have as many votes on you as I do on me? Albeit the less reputable players, yet you are ignoring the possibility that you may be lynched.

You are playing from a perspective of invulnerability and assuming that no one will focus on you,

yet you are posting nothing.

For some reason you seem to think no one is going to pick up on that, now answer the damn question.

You accuse people left and right of refusing to answer questions, and now you are doing it yourself. You are a hypocrite, and thinking no one will call you on it is foolish.

[SpyreX]

@ Spyrex - I'm just curious, why would you prefer to lynch foilist right now than peanut man?

Peanutman just doesn't make sense. The fact that it ties into all this other stuff is eye raising but foil still is winning the race.

Foil's business is scummy. This whole new approach is starting to have the stink of looking for any way out.

Of course, if we ended up lynching peanut I wouldn't shed a tear. I will stand strong NOW on preferring Foilist.

Its Foilist - Ala - Peanut at the mo.

[archaebob]

Foilist, don't worry. I'll give you the full-fledged wall post of a case you deserve before we get around to lynching you.

Spyrex, here's something you might want to look at. Foil was cop in this game, and got himself lynched with a slip up in the third line or so of the post I've linked you to. His play from that point was as idiotically stubborn and as scummy looking as it has been in this game. I tunneled him, and we lynched him pretty quickly; the catch, though, is that he was actually town.

Therefore, I'm not actually positive that foilist is scum. It is clear to me though that he hasn't learned his lesson from that game, and is therefore somewhat useless to the town.

[foilist13]

@SpyreX - Of course I'm looking for a way out. I don't think I should be lynched. Do you imagine that it's pro-town to sit down and let yourself be lynched as soon as there is a case on you?

@Archaebob - Same question

[MordyS]

archaebob, I just looked over that example. (I'm pretty sure from my last game that SpyreX would rather not use meta to clear a target, but I'm willing to lend it a bit more weight.) Do you feel it's different here? Foilist13's scumtell in that game (and holy shit, no surprise they wanted to lynch him ASAP), was a blatant suggestion that he knew there was a Mafia roleblocker in the game. I'm guessing he just wanted Mafia to believe there was no cop (to take any possible heat off himself, since he was the cop), and offered that misguided suggestion. Obviously he didn't want to give his real explanation ("I'm a cop and wanted to take the heat off myself") so he doubled down on the bad/bizarre explanations (including one particular post that suggests he doesn't understand how percentages work).

Here though, I can't think of one pro-Town reason, misguided or otherwise, for the way he acted. Do you agree? (Which isn't to say he couldn't just be playing extremely poorly here -- simply that your meta doesn't vindicate him.)

[foilist13]

I don't have a great defense here, nor did I there. I'm not sure how to respond other than how I already have.

[archaebob]

No, it's not pro-town to let yourself be lynched. You should defend yourself as best you can. But you aren't doing a very good job of that, since it's crystal clear how OMGUS your vote of me is.

You've also shown us that you didn't really suspect Muffin to begin with, given how quickly you were willing to drop your case on him.

Anyways, I'm done for the night. I hope to see a greater variety of faces on the thread tomorrow than what we've had so far.

[SpyreX]

Foilist, don't worry. I'll give you the full-fledged wall post of a case you deserve before we get around to lynching you.

Spyrex, here's something you might want to look at. Foil was cop in this game, and got himself lynched with a slip up in the third line or so of the post I've linked you to. His play from that point was as idiotically stubborn and as scummy looking as it has been in this game. I tunneled him, and we lynched him pretty quickly; the catch, though, is that he was actually town.

Therefore, I'm not actually positive that foilist is scum. It is clear to me though that he hasn't learned his lesson from that game, and is therefore somewhat useless to the town.

I'm not gonna say I give a whole lot of credence to meta in general. Scummy play gets lynched. Period. I find this play scummy and his posts afterwards aren't changing that.

However, welcome to the land of "Confirmed Town". Population bob. Seriously. A++ would post again.

[MordyS]

Well, foilist13, here's my suggestion:

Last game I played, there was a town player who had very poor town play. She was going to get herself lynched. In addition to a lot of very poor defenses (appeal to emotion, bad logic), she offered some good reads of other players that helped us win the next day when we quickly lynched the last scum left. If you really feel unable to respond to an attack, I suggest putting it aside and spending the rest of your energy writing good, solid reads on other players so that your lynch (should it come to that) won't be in vain. And I don't mean things like,

Have you noticed that you have as many votes on you as I do on me? Albeit the less reputable players, yet you are ignoring the possibility that you may be lynched.

I mean full attacks, pointing out gaps in logic, scummy behavior, etc. Your Muffin post would be a good start, if I didn't think it was fairly weak (not to mention I find long blocks of confusing quotes and text a little scummy).

[archaebob]

@ MordyS - sorry, i missed your post the first time around.

I don't know if it's the same or not. I suppose in this game his scum tells are a little more entrenched, while he had actually seemed pro-town over all in the other game.

Frankly, I don't care much though. He's acted like obvscum in this game, and I'd be willing to lynch him on principle whether or not that's actually his role.

[foilist13]

fair enough, I will do that, but right now I too need to go to bed.

[archaebob]

At 9:30PM? How old are you?

[archaebob]

@ Mordy and Spyrex - did you read anymore of the meta than the first post? The important thing is the way he defended himself, not the original tell itself.

[MordyS]

Yeah. That's what I was responding to. His responses were ridiculous because he kept lying. He didn't want to admit, "Hey, I'm a cop and I was making a dumb case to throw scum off my ass," so he made other arguments. But they weren't the truth, since the truth was this thing he didn't want to say. I'm trying to think what the analogue could be here, but I don't see what it could be.

[Benmage]

Post 125 has been fixed, Thank Gammagooey

[lexprod]

Currently on post 144 in reading, I can't be the only hungover player here.

[Gammagooey]

So yeah, fixed 125 for everyone and OMG WORDS. My

brief

(fuck it isnt) opinion on relatively new developments.

Almaster and lexprod STILL HAVENT POSTED YET RAGE RAGE RAGE.
(lexprod indicated that he was reading while I was making this. I still want opinions from him ASAP.)

Most of foil's defense about not changing his vote after he realized it was a mistake smells like horseshit. Although his defense does seem similar to the meta link provided, his reasonings and current reactionary voting are/is retarded.

I was going to say that I didn't see a whole lot of case on peanut aside from him voting for archae and defending foil. Then I read some more and noticed Spyrex quoting this from him.

I'm not just giving Foilist the benefit of the doubt, you have it as well. I'm not claiming you're scum, but my vote is on you because I still have my suspicions.

You're not claiming he's scum, and yet you're voting to lynch him.
I WONDER WHAT TYPE OF PERSON WOULD WANT TO LYNCH A NON-SCUM.

And now what you've all been waiting for...MORE ALMASTER RANTING!
I am very frustrated that he's been able to slide under the radar by lurking after being called out by several people and not answering any questions asked of him since Friday. It irritates the SHIT out of me. I was really hoping that leaving my vote on him would encourage him to actually post and defend himself. I will probably be changing my vote to foilist once lex actually gets around to posting, aka when we finally have opinions from everyone.
HOWEVER.
I still think Al is scum, and I think he deserves a lot more suspicion than he's gotten so far.

[Gammagooey]

Now that serious business is over with...(for now)

Currently on post 144 in reading, I can't be the only hungover player here.

GUYS I COUNTERCLAIM HUNGOVER BOTH OF US DEFINITELY CAN'T BE REAL.

[lexprod]

After two days of waiting, my first real post is bound to disappoint!

Funny thing is when I've played before I like placing vote pressure on people who have yet to show up, I'm kinda sad I still haven't gotten one yet from you guys.

Early game:

Alma's idea that researching pre-game is scummy is dumb IMO. Every reason that a scum would (to look for scum tells to abuse in this game, to find the meta-play) is a reason a town would (to look for scum tells to use in the game, to find the metaplay). As it's been pointed out, he also assumed that Gamma researched us all in depth, whereas he only knew one player's icon beforehand, and has provided a plausible explanation. He then falls off the face of the earth, but given the holiday and such, it's a null tell part of the equation. Based on the overall situation I'm putting alma on extreme watch, I do think this was a bad play, but since it died out due to inactivity on alma's part it's hard to see how malicious it was.


At this point is when the f13 situation begins, voting mordy for alma having a case on gamma. Gamma explains himself on page 2, about 90 minutes after f13 votes for mordy. An hour later f13 responds, but still has the wrong player in his head, then an hour after that realizes his mistake. Deflects accusation of belligerence with deflection onto bob. Interestingly enough, bob asks why f13's vote is on gamma still, and f13 responds he hasn't found a better option yet. I don't like that playstyle to begin with, but he once again forgot his incorrect vote. However Bob made the same mistake, as it was clear who was being discussed, just that one vote had the wrong name. All suspicion I have on f13 does not include his mis-vote, I think it was a legit mistake.

Around this time muffin and chinaman have a hissy fit, with fat chic too. Muffin made a "I agree" post and got some shit for it, and defended saying he thinks FOS are dumb. Based on thin evidence and what I'm assuming is TONS of OMGU(and your gameplay style)S, muffin votes China. China responds with his equivalent, a HoS, and starts up a minor shit storm with muffin, both sides say the same thing over and over, saying they play differently, and forcing each other to use the other's play style is scummy.

At page 6 f13 wakes up and then launches a massive case on Muffin based on non-commitment and lack of real content. Muffin did provide some content, it was just a prolonged argument about which way to play is correct. I'm getting a weak scum read due to muffin's continual argument that was just contradiction (and I paid for an argument!) for most of the time. Not that chinaman was posting gems of wisdom either, I just think they both should have realized they are at a stalemate on that debate. I don't like that this is the only major move muffin has made this game.

F13 then makes some non-statements about why he voted for mordy/gamma for so long. "it is my habit to leave my vote where it is unless I plan to change it" comes to mind as particularly obvious. The real question is why didn't you PLAN to change it. We're not asking you to move your vote around all the time independent of your thoughts, and I suspect that your thoughts were "well at least now I can keep a vote on mordy for no reason." OMGUS doesn't really work in retrospect, you could have at least revoted for mordy for the REAL reason, since it was unclear who you thought you were voting for anyways. I know you say that since there was no present danger there was no reason to unvote, but there was also no penalty for unvoting or switching to gamma. It would've taken what...a dozen keystrokes?

F13 then points out that no one is discussing his case. I think that's a fair call because if someone brings up that much text, especially your TARGET, then it's worth a mention. However everyone IS paying attention to your lack of a good explanation for being stubborn. After that most of the rest is scumlist drama, with cruelty leaning on the "they help scum more than town" side, which I agree with. That and lots of just repeating arguments.

I just don't see anything more scummy than foilist13's lack of explanaiton for his vote, and maybe there wasn't one, which makes it a bad vote, which makes me want to

vote: foilist13

. Alma's case has stalled until he becomes active again, and muffin is the same provided he does something besides attack chinaman again.

[lexprod]

Sorry for the lack of quotes, was trying to just go over the trends of 200 posts and my eyes are about to fall out from reading it. Good night!

[archaebob]

(and I paid for an argument!)

No you didn't.

@ lexprod - what do you think of peanutman?

[AlmasterGM]

Hi everyone,

First, I'm dropping the Gammagooey argument. I reserve the right to say "I told you so" at the endgame if Gamma is scum because I'd never do that, but since the general consensus is that it's not a scumtell and others have done it before, I'll let it go.

Now, to answer a couple of questions that were posed to me.

Where the hell have you been?

Busy. Now I'm back and ready to roll.

Almaster the game I read with you in it was Stratego mafia, and you definitely weren't this aggressive in there, is there a different game in particular I should be reading to see this prejudice you speak of?

I was a cop in that game, so I had to play conservatively. Read some of my vanilla town games. Honestly, though, there is really nothing to be gained from this - if I was scum, I wouldn't be playing to my scum meta.

====

My current top three suspects are MordyS and archaebob. I'm currently going to

Unvote: Vote: archaebob

, with MordyS as a secondary suspect. There are 9 justifications for the archaeboe vote:

1) It hasn't even been one day yet and he's already indicting people for not posting. Forced pro-town.

Foilist 13 and cruelty haven't posted yet. It's still early, but I just wanted to put that out there, as a running list. "
It hasn't even been one day yet and he's already indicting people for not posting. Forced pro-town.

2) Goes from apparent uncertainty / question asking to a vote without anything significant happening between the two posts. No substantial explanation, either.

AGM - why would you assume that any town player would do what YOU would do? Especially considering that this is his first game, I find it difficult to follow your suspicion of him.

Almaster has played in several games. Not sure how he could actually think this was a good case just now.

vote Almaster

3) Asks folist a question, waits 12 minutes (realtime), and then FOS's him without any explanation. What was he doing for those 12 minutes?

Foilist, you aren't reading the thread carefully. Are you trying to find scum, or trying to scrape by?

FOS: foilist13

4) Starts talking about the wagon on me significantly after the fact.

What about this quote at all indicates that gamma gooey has been "researching" all the other players before the start of the game?

5) Contradiction: First, he indicts people who haven't posted yet and says he's keeping careful watch of who posts and who doesn't. Then, a couple hours later, he's saying we can't expect people to post that much.

It's unreasonable to expect people to post more than once a day. This game only got going at all earlier today, so keep that in mind.

6) Asks for other people to comment without actually commenting himself : fishing for popular opinion before committing to any one direction.

I want other people to comment on this.

7) Another contradiction.

@ AGM - where did you go?

I think we need to forgive the lurkers for now, given that it's halloween weekend.

8) References a nonexistent justification for a past vote as a defense. Remember, bob never gave any substantial reason for why he voted for me.

I voted for AGM because he had become scummier than my RVS vote. I don't see why that makes you think I'm scummy, and it is interesting that you haven't posted ANY content of any kind about anyone else.

9)

MOST IMPORTANTLY:

All his posts are just mountains upon mountains of white noise. There is literally NO scumhunting being done, just tons of questions and random comments that make it look like he's contributing when he is not. Seriously, go read him in isolation - he's so incoherent and random it's funny.

I suspect MordyS because of this post:

EBWOP: Early bandwagons are valuable because they immediately start clarifying people's positions, put pressure on players, and force conversation. And in the rare case that someone hammers on the bandwagon, that indicates an instant-scum, since only scum would hammer 3 pages in. A bandwagon does not mean an inevitable lynch. Though considering AlmasterGM's statements so far this game, I wouldn't mind an inevitable lynch.

1) How do they clarify people's positions? This is a false assertion - it doesn't clarify
2) It doesn't put pressure on anyone. I just derailed the bandwagon on me by ignoring it. Moreover, even if it does put pressure, how is this a good thing? Unneeded pressure can force premature claims and is just as likely to cause townies to mess up as it is scum.
3) Why do we need a bandwagon to have conversation? There's been plenty of conversation in this game thus far without your early bandwagon.
4) Early bandwagons aren't dangerous because of the possibility of the quickhammer - they're problematic because they can be hard to stop once they get rolling.

I think this is an attempt by Mordy to recruit followers to the bandwagon on me without having to deal with the obvious flaws in the actual case. By making the wagon a good theoretical idea, he can avoid having to answer any concrete evidence. In some cases, I'd pass this off as stupidity - however, Mordy has been around long enough that I think he should know better. Unexcused badlogic is scummy.

[MordyS]

I just derailed the bandwagon on me by ignoring it

I'll get to some of this other stuff later, but lololololololololol. That's real pro-town stuff there, mate.

[SpyreX]

....

I have no words. Note that we just had a unnecessary claim in there too.

[MordyS]

Oh shit. Didn't even notice that in my first readthrough. When I get to school tonight, I'm going over this trainwreck with a fine-toothed comb.