Mini 828 - ProzacMod 3 - Lost Mafia - Over

[curiouskarmadog]

well, there were questions/aspects of the game that could have explained the lack of a kill. Though unlikely, but it wasnt out of the question (see SK reverting back).

[Amished]

True, but since N2 there wasn't a NK until the SK decided to be reverted. A doc was dead N1. How many more pro-town power roles would there be? (This is one thing that I didn't want brought up; the constant lack of NK's).

N2 the SK claiming that he was protected (basically) and that his kill was prevented by EMP was very likely to be the reason for lack of both kills.

N3, I couldn't kill due to needing to RB the cop, N4 and N5 the same thing. 3 nights in a row (3-5) all being able to be prevented through a question (when we quicklynched D4 and D5 to prevent questions from coming out) would be even more outrageous.

@Mod: What did the question to cdb do?

Day 3:

You have been apprehended by the dharma initiative. They have tied you to a tree and have begun torturing you. Do you answer there questions truthfully?

He said yes

He did not recieve a reply

[curiouskarmadog]

my question was "do I love juliet"...it was asked the day the CB was lynched...I figured the questions were flavor so i didnt really care and said "no"...given how reck's question played out...I have a feeling if I would have said yes I could have stopped the lynch...or take it on myself.

i figured there were other things like this going on.

[Porochaz]

Few things.

My post got deleted

Version 1 had the cop (think it was Sawyer at that point) become scum halfway through. However one of the reasons version 1 was cancelled was because scum were way overpowered. would of liked to have seen this played through.

My games will have both cop and doc, however they also have something to avoid it being broken. ie. cop and doc changes with the room or in this case, the cop and doc will change halfway through the game.

The game was talked about, however the specifics regarding questions and roles were not. I was seeing how viable it would be and I did initially mean to put a sign saying experimental game up. I have run many games (all more sucsessful than this. and maybe arrogantly didnt see the need for it to be reviewed.

For ages I thought scum were going to win and Im not just saying that, town were screwing themselves over and CKD and Juls were taking full advantage. However as CKD got ill and Juls had too much work, it fell quickly. BM and Amished replaced in and tis was where Amished got screwed. It was going to be tough for him to win anyway. A lot of people who were confirmed I could have easily made scum, so actually weren't. The first version a cop became scum halfway through and in this version the SK got to become an SK again (I think another mistake on my part). The biggest problem and I think the part where there was no chance in hell Amished could have won was where BM self claimed, didnt play and only replaced in to get me to replace for him. I actually played his game decently and Im upset that he couldnt return the same courtesy. He's blacklisted from any future games I will run and I am considering taking his conduct up with mith. As essentially he killed what remaining chance the scumteam had. I was also 50/50 whether to modkill him right there, however the lynch was happening anyway and I may have gotten a little over enthusiastic about that :/

As for me disappearing in real life, that was down to me moving flat and having no internet. I was expecting one weeks worth of LA but not much more. Unfortunetly it didnt work out that way. For all the players who played in this game (excluding BM) Im sorry and will be happy to replace into any games you need in the future.

Anyway thats it for the moment, will post the rest of the setup tonight or tomorrow.

[xRECKONERx]

A game reset would have been epic though.

[Amished]

I think SK claiming would've broken it though. Psych obviously protects them when found, then they're both confirmed and even if cop moves around. Also then allows cop a free night.

[curiouskarmadog]

I probably would have asked for a replacement if we had to do this again.

[Porochaz]

I think SK claiming would've broken it though. Psych obviously protects them when found, then they're both confirmed and even if cop moves around. Also then allows cop a free night.

Yeah, however how do you know there is a psych. The game was set up so that half (maybe slightly more) had a chance to change roles.

I realised that and was never going to do a reset, CKD. It didnt cross my mind once. ZONEACE said it and I wanted to carry on the joke a bit.

[EmpTyger]

CKD’s question I had guessed that would have made him a lover with CB.
CDB’s question- I’m guessing it would have made him a godfather.

---

CKD:
I got a PM N2 that I had successfully converted the SK and was now vanilla. Not sure what else to do with that.

My thoughts on the setup and whether we had a shot once I confirmed Zoneace?
I’m waiting to see the setup before I talk about that. But from my current point of view- no, I don’t think we did. Even if we correctly somehow get Amished earlier- honestly, I’m going to go after a potential third mafia member when game continues, especially with Reckoner’s ability- if the mafia could lose a second member that arbitrarily, I’m going to assume that they had 3 members to begin.

My point is more that I just don’t see what I could have done differently. My options seem to be (1) not successfully find the SK (2) have the mafia neutralize Zoneace for us (3) get additional questions and hope that that helps us (4) think that I’m a psychiatrist with random sanity (5) lynch and realize that all mafia were gone, before Zoneace reverted or (6) assume that much a degree of bastard moddery that there’s no point in playing.
1) is me deliberately playing badly
2) is out of our control (and even then- the best way to get the mafia to kill Zoneace is to establish him as a confirmed innocent)
3) is more likely to cost the game than save it
4),seriously?
5) is unreasonable: Juls/CDB didn’t have their replacements until 10/12, and Zoneace’s questions were asked 10/19.
6) if we need to assume that Zoneace could turn into a SK- at that point, it’s just as likely for me for anyone else becomes a SK as it for him. So if the town must assume that any player who gets asked a question might be turned into a SK- well, there’s almost no point playing then.

That’s why I having trouble coming up with a regret about this game- little things I could have done better, maybe, but nothing that would have changed the outcome in this situation, and in general would have been more likely to get a loss.

On a separate topic-
I want to make sure I didn't imply that it’s not okay to change your mind- and please don’t let me discourage you from doing so! But, the important bit is being able to *explain* what changed your mind, especially when asked. For several reasons. (1) Otherwise the mafia can do whatever they want and not need to explain themselves. (2) If you don’t explain yourself, you generally make it almost impossible to persuade anyone. (3) If you happen to be wrong, no one can correct you.

And that’s what happened with VP/CB, and with Santos/Reckoner. You had an incorrect theory, but rather than explain yourself when asked, you insisted that you didn’t need to explain yourself, and you insisted that instead of you explaining, players should either lynch you or lynch someone that you said to.

Incidentally, I hope you realize why I didn’t want to say how I knew that antitown roles had the “your role may change” clause.

And, yeah. Lurking kills towns. But that's another rant.

---

Amished:
The mod said that the reset would not have included the SK. Also, presumably the roles would have been reshuffled as well, otherwise there’s just a massnameclaim and we lynch Sun/Sayid or lynch out the counterclaimers.

I had thought about optimal strategy for a reset, but I realized that roles/abilities would have to be reshuffled to prevent an immediate massclaim, so there wasn’t much point. In any case, the reset supposedly did not include the SK.

---

VP:
Don’t worry about getting angry at me- as I said, I was in a delicate situation where I needed to keep people talking and was doing things I could only get away with because I was confirmed. And do credit yourself for managing to put yourself in the bottom half of my suspect list despite your play D1-2. You just even then weren’t below Amished.

Knowing that a SK existed was a big clue to finding them, don’t get me wrong. But the way you cleared Zoneace, in the same way you cleared Juls- that set off alarm bells. Unexplained innocent reads are the mafia’s best friend. They allow the mafia to clear their buddies. They allow attention to be shifted off of badly playing innocents, who the mafia want to keep around. (In fact, the game I was in with Juls, in which I was mafia- we won in a large part because of this.) Basically, they let the mafia do all the things they want to do, without any of the scrutiny.

Personally, I think meta is way overrated, but that’s my opinion. But, um, don’t say a player acts a certain way only as town until *after* you’ve seen how they act as mafia.

[Santos]

Yes, I have that wall of defense as a player where I have a hard time coping being lynched when I feel I've irrifutably proved my innocence. I accept my ignorance...

But when I am fighting to lynch CDB for lurking, VP for a miller claim, and Amished for being the least likely to be town towards the end of the game, then I getting fucking frustrated that the rest of the town won't listen to the evidence I've provided to lynch them. Turns out I pegged one scum, ignored game flavor (regarding that I should find Jin) and let one scum slip under the radar, and channeled most of my arguments against VP's miller claim.

I'm on my BB, so I can't post large content yet, sorry.

[Amished]

Well, I figured we'd have the same names per person (i.e. I'd still be Sayid, you {EMP} would be Ben); the same roles would be in the game; but then just shuffled. The 50/50 chances would make it a different game, but SK claim, we have a confirmed innocent SK, confirmed innocent hidden town, doc and cop. There's really no way for scum to win just by PoE unless there's some random stupid role combo (scum roleblocker cop or something).

And if it had been reset, I don't think Porochaz would've announced lack of SK.

[Santos]

Why make the serial killer 1 shot bulletproof? Overpowered, amirite?

ZONEACE, congrats on not getting lynched Day 1 :p and congrats on your win. I think it was a clever way to deceive the town having him revert back, but I also believe it inconvenienced everyone.

[Amished]

The SK wasn't 1-shot bulletproof, he was protected on the night he was found by EMP (pseudo-1-shot-doc/converter basically).

[EmpTyger]

As far as I know, the SK had a 1-shot immunity- I essentially roleblocked Zoneace N2, but I didn’t think I protected him.

---

Santos:
In a nutshell, the problem was that you had shot your credibility to hell. You’ve got to understand that there’s good reason why people weren’t listening to you. Also, you should also note that by the time you were lynched, VP was already dead and Amished was getting lynched anyhow, so to be honest, it didn’t matter whether people listened to you or not.

Think of it this way- don’t lie D2, because then it’s that much harder for someone to believe you D3, D4, or D5.

(Which is not to say you shouldn’t go down fighting. The lesson to take away here is to change how you behaved D2- not how you behaved D3-5.)

[Amished]

@EMP: Honestly I don't see anything you really could've done better throughout the game. You should've had the town win through your actions.

Give EmpTyger a Bundt Cake

It's for your inventory >_>

[Santos]

Think of it this way- don’t lie D2, because then it’s that much harder for someone to believe you D3, D4, or D5.

So initially, I should have said I was the cop and been night killed just to confirm RECKONER? That is fucking dumb.

[Santos]

Guys, honestly, I feel I did a great job tricking the scum into thinking I was iron townie. I know it deceived the town as well, but it certainly made it easy for me to get THE ONLY INVESTIGATION COMPLETED by lying. You may hate it, but I felt I was doing everyone a favor by with holding what I knew and supplanting it with a white lie.

[VP Baltar]

I wouldn't have tried to confirm reckoner at all. He was claiming to be vanilla anyhow. If he got lynched, it wouldn't have been a terrible loss. You should have just kept your investigation to yourself.

Honestly, you are the perfect player to get a cop role because I think you normally play just scummy enough to not be on the top of a scum kill list.

[Santos]

RECKONER, how do you feel about what I did? I've played the most games with you. Don't you expect me to do irrational, outlandish crap like this?

[Santos]

Well, I feel bad that I couldn't ignore your claim, VP. I hated it. I hate miller claims. You are forced to either press for a lynch on a miller claim or completely ignore it

as a cop

. I don't know how to look at that any other way. It screams 'wasted investigation' imo.

[Santos]

Oh, and normally, millers don't know they're millers..so that was difficult to swallow as well.

[Santos]

Also, why could no one see that curiouskarmadog was extremely pro town? He offered the unmistakable townie gambit, lynch for a lynch. I can't believe he got lynched. Such a waste of a day, for sure.

[VP Baltar]

I can understand your frustration with the miller claim a little better now that I know you were the cop, Santos. I think you were spending too much time focusing on it though.

Millers do know they are millers a lot on MS actually, so you should have just been basing your read on my play in the game. Also, the fact that I claimed miller shortly after my question should have at least read as somewhat honest to you as it wouldn't make a lot of sense for scum to do that rather than claiming miller at the start.

[Amished]

Millers always know they're miller. Also, you didn't fool a damn person into thinking you were an Iron Townie. I can't believe the town didn't lynch you right then and there. Your successful investigation was wasted as it was used on somebody already confirmed town! Your play was the worst out of the whole group here.

[ZONEACE]

@ZA: N2, had I been in the mafia; I would've roleblocked EMP (maybe killed him). Either way, EMP couldn't find you if he was roleblocked and the kill on you would've worked.

what part of I HAD A NK IMMUNITY did you not get. you would have had to kill me TWICE for it to work.