Mini 867- TTGL Mafia: GAME OVER: Roles posted.

[Yosarian2]

(shrug)

[Yosarian2]

Alright. I'm actually Kamina hence the Giga Drill Breaker.

I do have other abilities but it's not in my best interest to reveal them at this moment. Let's just say that for the moment I am unkillable and unlynchable.

For the moment.

I gambited and failed miserably. I was hoping to daykill scum...tch.

It's called kicking reason to the curb. You'll understand once you've watched the anime.

Any other questions?

So...let me get this straight.

1. You daykilled someone a page into the game for no good reason.

2. You then claimed your complete role with no one voting you, even though if you actually were an unkillable pro-town player (or a temporarily unkillable one, or whatever), you wouldn't want to say that, you'd want the scum to try to kill you and fail.

3. Your claim is pretty absurd, just from a game balance perspective.

So, what does "being unlynchable" mean? What happens if we lynch you?

I, for one, am willing to try.

vote:Seraphim

[Yosarian2]

FOS: Seraphim

Claiming as an unlynchable, unkillable killer who happened to kill town day 1?

Sounds almost like a jester, hence the reason only an FOS and not a vote.

Um...so you think he's a jester with a daykill? Really?

Also, "let's not lynch X because he might be a jester" is a bad argument. If you think someone is a jester on day 1, you generally want to lynch them anyway.

[Yosarian2]

...or what?

Or he'll hurt the game's flow. Regardless, he's already made the vegas odds for an early exit. All too many times we've seen a player implode for one reason or another that hurt the town. I don't want to rush a lynch and find out he's town that gambited wrong.[/quote]

"rush a lynch"? Dude, with my vote, he now has a grand total of 1 vote on him.

[Yosarian2]

Allow me to repeat this again: I CANNOT be lynched for the moment. Attempting to do so won't end the day but it will be a waste of your time and mine.

:eyebrow:

If you can't be lynched, if it dosn't end the day, if it dosn't hurt the town at all, and it will confirm your claim, then it could only be good, right? Free information, confirming of your role at no cost to the town, could only be a good thing, if you're telling the truth.

If you were, I'd expect you would want a majority of the town to vote you ASAP, as well as self voting, so we could confirm at least part of your claim and then move on.

I'll admit, I'm rather skeptical; last time I saw someone claiming that on day 1, they were lying. What's even more frustrating, they were a lying pro-town role, and when we lynched them (because of course you should always lynch someone who claims to be unlynchable) it did serious damage to the town. So, if you're not actually unlynchable, please just admit it now and get it over with; otherwise, the correct pro-town move would be for us run you up and see what happens, and to do it right away so we don't waste any time.

[Yosarian2]

I think he might be fakeclaiming the kill in order to get lynched.

That is probably the least likely thing ever, especally since he posted in thread "BOOOOXMAANN!" and then shortly afterwards the mod posted a death scene that specifically mentioned Seraphim.

I, for one, am willing to try. vote:Seraphim

Are you voting him thinking he is a jester, lying scum, or just to test his claim?

[/quote]

He's quite clearly not a jester.

I think there's a significant chance he's lying scum. Or, if he's town and telling the whole truth, then lynching him would also be in our best interests. At the very least, I want to get a wagon rolling on him and see what happens; there is a limited amount of random anti-town behavior I'm willing to take, and he managed to pass that in pretty much record time with no explanation yet.

[Yosarian2]

In conclusion, though Seraphim's action may seem scummy, there's really nothing to prove his role wrong (other than speculation about the setup, which isn't good).

(shrug) Well, there's one easy way to test and see if he's telling the truth or lying. Let's lynch him and see what happens. If he's telling the truth, it won't even end the day.

[Yosarian2]

I'm treating his day-kill like a vidge that kills on Night 0 until I have a reason to think its a scum kill. I'm treating his claim like someone who's playing a gambit in a Tarhalindur-style game, which could become a good strategy as town. Do you think either of these things is scummy?

Well, the thing is, there's a mathmatical case to be made for vigging night zero. I don't agree with it, but it's not an unambiguasly bad play.

On the other hand, there's absolutly no reason for a pro-town day-vig to vig early in the day instead of later, when he might actually hit scum. None at all.

His actions so far this game would make the most sense if he's a scum day-killer, like a day-SK or a mafia with a one-shot kill, running a gambit to try to use his daykill to "confirm" himself. That's not the only explination, but just based on his daykill and the weak explination he gave for it (not to mention his SK-claim before that), it makes the most sense.

I'll admit, I'm rather skeptical; last time I saw someone claiming that on day 1, they were lying. What's even more frustrating, they were a lying pro-town role, and when we lynched them (because of course you should always lynch someone who claims to be unlynchable) it did serious damage to the town.

Werewolves of Millers Hollow, that's the game I was thinking of too. He might be lying about his claim, and still be town. I just want to be sure what he is, because from what Sera's already done and said we should be able to decide whether we want to lynch him right now.

Well, the way I see it, it's simple.

There's about a 60% chance he's just flat out lying scum. In that case, we lynch him.

There's about a 30% chance he's town telling the truth. In that case, unless he gives us a reason not to, we speedlynch him, confirm his claimed ability, and then move on quickly rather then waste any more time debating him today, if he really is unlynchable and if lynching him really dosn't end the day. If there's some reason we shoudln't do this, Serephem, you'd better fill us in fast.

The other 10% chance is that he's a lying pro-town daykiller who's acting like kind of a VI this game, killing townies at random and then lying about being unlynchable (that level of VI-ness dosn't really seem to fit what I know about Serephem, so I don't find it that likely). If he is, then hopefully he'll confess and tell us the truth as soon as he realizes we're serious and actually are about to lynch him, and then we can hopefully get this whole confusing mess sorted out.

Even if he didn't claim unlynchable, I'd be voting him right now until he gives a better explination for that daykill. Since he did, though, there's really no reason for anyone to NOT be voting him right now.

[Yosarian2]

What are the other elements? The case on him is based on an early (well bad played) action. I've seen townies do that other times. Making a day-kill in the early game, that is. What are his other scummy actions? The claim? Well, scummy as it can be, I'm not sure of that. I mean, I'd make the Kamina role a bit broken as well, if I were the mod. So, it's all speculation about the setup, which I don't like, and which I believe it's scummy.

Snow_Bunny, I mentioned this before, and you didn't respond. Why are you opposed to lynching him? What's the risk? If you belive him, then you think he's lynchproof and lynching him won't end the day, right?

[Yosarian2]

There's about a 60% chance he's just flat out lying scum. In that case, we lynch him.

There's about a 30% chance he's town telling the truth. In that case, unless he gives us a reason not to, we speedlynch him, confirm his claimed ability, and then move on quickly rather then waste any more time debating him today, if he really is unlynchable and if lynching him really dosn't end the day. If there's some reason we shoudln't do this, Serephem, you'd better fill us in fast.

The other 10% chance is that he's a lying pro-town daykiller who's acting like kind of a VI this game, killing townies at random and then lying about being unlynchable (that level of VI-ness dosn't really seem to fit what I know about Serephem, so I don't find it that likely). If he is, then hopefully he'll confess and tell us the truth as soon as he realizes we're serious and actually are about to lynch him, and then we can hopefully get this whole confusing mess sorted out.

Even if he didn't claim unlynchable, I'd be voting him right now until he gives a better explination for that daykill. Since he did, though, there's really no reason for anyone to NOT be voting him right now.

Where are these percentages coming from?

Nowhere specific, just my analysis of his play so far, and of the probability of his claim, makes me think it's more likely he's lying scum then town telling the truth. Obviously those aren't really meaningful numbers at this point. You could flip the first two and lynching him would still be a good move, though, so it dosn't even really matter.

Under normal circumstances the first two options are a good enough gut feeling for me to test his claim, but I wonder if we're trying to outguess the mod this way.

When someone has a seemingly absurd and overly complicated claim, with way too many bells and whistles to make sense as a role, they're usually lying, in my experience. It's a pretty common scum mistake.

But, it dosn't even matter. There's no outguessing the mod involved at all. Either he's telling the truth, or he's lying, and either way, lynching him is the right move.

Honestly, I'm not sure why this is taking so long. If he is telling the truth, and lynching him does nothing, we don't want to waste the whole day on this.

What about the possibility that Sera's telling the truth as town, but another force unknown to us allows the lynch to go through anyway?
For example, anyone in this game can be lynched according to the rules. What does that mean for contradicting claims and people not in the game?

Oh hey, Rule 18 added. I'm amazed I forgot this...it's kinna important

Thanks, mod.

Yeah...that would be, well, beyond bastard modding, telling someone they're unlynchable when they're not. It dosn't really make sense, either.

Besides, stop and think this through for a second. Someone is an unlynchable, unkillable daykiller. How could that ever possibly be a balanced role? No matter what his alignment is, seems like his side probably wins the game. Plus, the vague hints that there is "more to his role he's not telling us", even though he already told us the part that no sane pro-town person would ever tell scum (the part where he's supposedly un-nightkillable), just make the whole thing even less likely.

[Yosarian2]

After thinking hard about it, I'm willing to be lynched if you do it quickly.

Ok. Let's do this thing.

[Yosarian2]

No. My experience with lynchproofs players is that the day DOES end, with a no-lynch. And, no-lynch is bad for town.

Sara specifically told us that it does not end the day.

[Yosarian2]

Either he is lying about the day not ending or his is lying about being lynchproof. It would behoove us to find out which.

What? Why would you assume that?

[Yosarian2]

Vi, why do you want to lynch Yos?

For spearheading this lynch like it's the only option we have.

Well, it is. Duh. If he's telling the truth, then we lynch him, find out he's telling the truth, and then find scum. It's simply the correct move here.

That and calling out Seraphim like there's an out-there chance he's a n00by inexperienced player and not someone who has been on this site for about as long as I have (not to mention someone who /ins for a lot of bastard games).

Did you read my post? I specifically said that I did NOT think Seraphim is a likely to be VI who'd daykill someone and then lie about his role as town, which is part of the reason we SHOULD lynch him, because I think he's probably either telling the truth or lying scum.

[Yosarian2]

Vi, why do you want to lynch Yos?

For spearheading this lynch like it's the only option we have.

Well, it is. Duh. If he's telling the truth, then we lynch him, find out __ he's telling the truth, and then find scum. It's simply the correct move here.

And before Rule 18 was clarified and thus it was only possible to attempt to lynch Seraphim OR lynch someone else, would you say that his lynch was the only option?
(Also, nice lack of "if" )

I don't really think rule 18 needed to be clarified; I would always normally assume that if someone is told by the mod in their role PM they're unlynchable, that they actually are.

Also, I don't need an "if" there. The whole sentence is an "if/then" clause. "IF he is town, THEN (we lynch him, find out he's telling the truth, and move on)." It's just a shame natural language is less precise then computer language.

That and calling out Seraphim like there's an out-there chance he's a n00by inexperienced player and not someone who has been on this site for about as long as I have (not to mention someone who /ins for a lot of bastard games).

Did you read my post? I specifically said that I did NOT think Seraphim is a likely to be VI who'd daykill someone and then lie about his role as town, which is part of the reason we SHOULD lynch him, because I think he's probably either telling the truth or lying scum.

I don't read anyone else's posts and I do just fine

I can see a pro-Town motive for killing Boxman. Contrast

On the other hand, there's

absolutly no reason

for a pro-town day-vig to vig early in the day instead of later, when he might actually hit scum. None at all.

His actions so far this game would make the most sense if he's a scum day-killer, like a day-SK or a mafia with a one-shot kill, running a gambit to try to use his daykill to "confirm" himself.

That's not the only explination,

but just based on his daykill and the weak explination he gave for it (not to mention his SK-claim before that), it makes the most sense.

which is so ambiguously closed-minded that I find it scummy.

"Ambiguously close minded"? A pro-town person shouldn't daykill someone on page 2 of day 1, it's just a horrible move. Even if you're 100% convinced you've caught scum that early, you should still pressure them, vote them, see who defends them and who goes along, and THEN daykill them. The way he did it was just incredibly anti-town. Besides the fact that, you know, he killed a townie on page 2 of the game and refused to give any reason. And still hasn't.

What, exactally, was your reasoning for thinking Boxman was scum?

[Yosarian2]

Nyaaaaa, this isn't going where I want it to.
Why is lynching Seraphim literally the

only

option, as opposed to believing him?

In a mafia game, which would you rather do; just believe someone is telling the truth, or find out for a fact if they are, if there's no cost to finding out?

In mafia game, Facts > beliefs, by far. If you can get some actual hard facts, and build from there, you're way ahead of the game.

If they're real, easily confirmable roles are basically the mods' gift to the town. If someone claims an easily confirmable role, town should always confirm it ASAP, especally if doing so dosn't cost the town anything, which this apparently dosn't.

I mean, at this point, we can find out if he's telling the truth for free. If he's lying scum, he'll probably die, and if he's town and telling the truth, he'll be confirmed and we'll get to lynch someone else. Not doing that would be like the mod offering the town a free confirmed accurate cop investigation and the town saying "Neah, no thanks". It's really a no-brainer.

Shouldn't

, but does that necessarily mean Seraphim is nonTown (notice I'm not using terms like

anti-Town

or

scum

) for doing so? I don't think I've ever seen Mafia pull a stunt like this, but I've

definitely

seen Town do things like that (forbiddanlight, Natirasha, Fritzler, all the people you know and love).

I have seen scum pull stuff like that, actually. There was one famous (offsite) game where Baby Jesus was a scum with a daykill, and he just kept blatently killing off town in broad daylight, saying that he was killing people in order to "confirm their alignment", lol.

I certanly do agree that careless use of daykills is a mistake pro-town players sometimes make; hey, I was in two of the Bad Idea Mafia games. Still, if a person does an anti-town action, the rest of the town should both question him and pressure him until he explains himself properly.

Of course, that's not actually that important at the moment. I don't think a purely unlynchable scum daykiller is very likely, for obvious reasons, so if we lynch him and nothing happens, I'll most likely drop the suspicions related to the daykill, at least for the time being.

What, exactally, was your reasoning for thinking Boxman was scum?

Good question, but for integrity reasons I'll think that question would be best redirected to

Seraphim

.

[/quote]

I would love it if Seraphim would answer that question. So far, he's shown no interest in doing so.

[Yosarian2]

Yos, if Sera is lying, why hasn't there been a Kamina counterclaim?

Well, one possible answer would be that, for balance reasons and to prevent game-breaking mass claims, the most obvious roles in a theme game are often not in the game at all and given as safe claims to the scum, especally in a theme with specific and obvious "main characters".

[Yosarian2]

Yos, if Sera is lying, why hasn't there been a Kamina counterclaim?

Well, one possible answer would be that, for balance reasons and to prevent game-breaking mass claims, the most obvious roles in a theme game are often not in the game at all and given as safe claims to the scum, especally in a theme with specific and obvious "main characters".

I considered that, but it seems clear from the flavor that FL was very enthusiastic about making this setup, so I'd find it odd if she didn't include main characters. Like, I could see a DBZ game not including Goku or something, but this looks more like a pet project than a normal theme game. Sort of a "what if" game, if you understand me.

(shrug) Fair enough. I dislike trusting those kinds of outguessing-the-mod flavor arguments too far, personally, but I see where you're coming from.

[Yosarian2]

If we reached majority already, unvoting won't make a difference.

Yeah, but just for the sake of completeness, if Serephem dosn't die, it'd be nice to see a votecount from the mod specifically saying there's a majority of votes on him and that he's not lynched.

Anyway, if Serephem doesn't die, then my suspect would be either Monkey (for some odd/scummy seeming reasoning) or Chaco (for the reasons Vi gave; mostly lurking). If Serephem flips scum, my main suspect is probably going to be Snow_Bunny.

[Yosarian2]

This doesn't confirm all of Sera's role to me. I think he still has to earn townieness through his play.

If Serephem flips scum, my main suspect is probably going to be Snow_Bunny.

Just to clarify, does this statement apply to both third-party scum and mafia scum, or just one type of scum?

That statement was specifically based on Serephem being in a scum group, and on him being vulnerable to lynch. If both of those were true, then Snow Bunny would have looked quite bad for opposing his lynch for what seems to be irrational reasons. (For comparison, I don't think the way Vi argued against the lynch speaks against him; Vi's posting so far feels more pro-town-ish to me.)

Snow_bunnys post 63 looks scummy if Sera is town or scum. The condemnation of a bad play is strong enough to be distancing, and stocked with emotive words that scum sometimes use to come across as naturally concerned about a townie death (same thing as commenting on a NK in a "yay dead scum" or "boo dead townie" manner).

Yeah, I kind of agree that Snow Bunny looks bad either way. But, for now, I'll

Vote:Chaco

[Yosarian2]

unvote

Vote:Monkeyman

Really, really odd play coming from him.

We will want to test Chaco's claim. I suggest that we wait until we've decided to lynch someone today and then, instead of hammering that person, we have Chaco do it. Otherwise, him using his claimed ability costs us all the information from a normal bandwagon, which seems like a bad thing.

[Yosarian2]

It's either Yos or snow as they're now pushing the Monkey lynch, who is a red herring and has looked like an easy target all day.

...what?

Quite a few people have voted or expressed suspicion on Monkeyman, Jahudo, because he's been acting scummy-odd all game. I find it odd for you to single me out.

Anyway, I dislike that daykill. If there are two daykillers, they're probably not both town.

[Yosarian2]

Of course being active isn't scummy, monkey. I can guarentee you I've never attacked someone because they were active.

[Yosarian2]

I was looking for the killer, not all the people suspecting Monkeyman.However, Cobalt or Monkeyman could be trying to make the other look like the killer. I need to read again and see if that makes sense along with the general timing of the kill.

Wait...so you're not looking for scum in general, you're just looking for the guy who made the daykill?

I agree there's a good chance that the second daykiller is scum, but your thought process seems just really odd here.

Oy you inebriated lush, Rule of Cool is in effect. That girl needs some awesome glasses

[Yosarian2]

At least two of the scum in this game are in {Jahudo, Yos2, one of the lurkers/nonparticipants}.

...so, you're still attacking me here?

Do you have a reason yet?

Why you box of witless bricks, did you completely miss my announcement?

[Yosarian2]

There, you happy now?

That is the most awesome avi ever. It can only be made more awesome if you actually used Kamina

[Yosarian2]

Well, this game is kind of stalling out.

LURKER HUNT!

Vote:Jebus

[Yosarian2]

aw come on we already had a perfectly good lurker wagon on snow

Eh? Snow looked scummy, but she's not a lurker; she's posted about once per day, on average.

[Yosarian2]

@Yos2: Yes, I do. I really hate your passive and mostly non-useful approach to this game. If there was any better way to just go through the motions of playing, you would have found it already.

I certanly don't think I've been "passive" or "non-useful". I mean, a week ago you were attacking me for leading the town, and now you're attacking me for being passive?

[Yosarian2]

2) That was a reference to US Election 08 Mafia, where Yos was Town Voteless and displayed little will to do much about anything (to be fair, D1 was a 50-page festival of idiocy). He was NKd N1 for possibly having a non-terrible role.

That's also not at all an accurate description of my day 1 play in Election Mafia; I did a hell of a lot of scumhunting in that game, despite not having a vote, and I delibratly hinted I had a power role in order to get the scum to kill me since I was otherwise useless to the town. I think I played quite well that game, personally.

Anyway, Vi is one of the long list of people who always seems to think I'm scum for absolutely no reason these days, no matter what I do or don't do, apparently based on "I saw Yos as scum once and now I don't trust him". It's been increasingly frustrating, and it's one of the reasons I kind of stopped playing mafia for a bit there and am still only in two games, but I don't think he's scum.

[Yosarian2]

In all seriousness.

I mean, a week ago you were attacking me for leading the town

...into an obvious policy lynch that an uninformed observer as myself could tell you wasn't going to go anywhere.

It wasn't a "policy lynch" at all. It was a combination of suspicion of his actions, and the simple fact that lynching him could only give us information and would not hurt us, and therefore could only help the town, which proved to be correct, and you yourself realized I was right.

Also, gj attempting to discredit me.

Discredit you? Half the point of that post was to explain why I thought you probably weren't scum, despite you stubbornly continued attacking me even after your origional reason for attacking me proved to be bunk; your play here is frustrating for me, but I don't think it's a scumtell, because I've seen town-Vi attacking me for no reason just like you have been.

[Yosarian2]

because I've seen town-Vi attacking me for no reason just like you have been.

...when you were... what alignment, perchance?

Town. However, that's an ongoing game, so I can't say anything else about it right now.

And refresh me - while it's common knowledge that Jebus is scum, who's your pick for Mafia?

As I said earlier, I think both Snowbunny and Monkey have acted scummy so far this game.

[Yosarian2]

Chaco: Please don't instant lynch anyone. Your ability, if used to end the day early without a lynch consensuss, only hurts the town, becuase it just means we get less wagon info then we should.

There's a three-person wagon on Snow_Bunny right now. Why aren't you on it?

Because for the moment I'd rather be voting a lurker. Activity in this game sucks, and it was especally bad when I cast my lurker-vote. Town must never allow the game to stall out, ever, or town loses. It just happened to me again in a recently completed game, Warewolves of Millers Hollow.

[Yosarian2]

Snow_Bunny is an active lurker. She's not actually posting any content, and is scummy.

That's not true either. She's actually been trying quite hard to get us to lynch you, for one thing. You may think that's scummy, but it's certainly content, by any sense of the word.

[Yosarian2]

Snow_Bunny is an active lurker. She's not actually posting any content, and is scummy.

That's not true either. She's actually been trying quite hard to get us to lynch you, for one thing. You may think that's scummy, but it's certainly content, by any sense of the word.

90% of her posts have no actual content besides saying that I'm scummy. She only gave the supposed slip reason when pressed.

Eh, at least I know who she thinks is scummy, which is way more content then many people in this game have given.

In fact, speaking of that, I think I'm going to

Unvote

,

Vote:Xoelf

for now. Not only has she posted very little, when she has she's said nothing at all; she's done no scumhunting, posted no suspects, and really commented on no game relevent issues.
This morning, she did promise that "today" she would sit down and analyze everything. I hope she does.

[Yosarian2]

Yos, who do you find scummy outside of the lurkers?

As I just explained a few posts ago, I do find both snowbunny and monkeyman somewhat scummy, for different reasons.

However, at the moment, I find the lurkers significantly scummier then either one. Especially xofelf , who apparently had time to troll the mod for 5 or 6 posts but hasn't had a chance to do anything useful to the town yet.

[Yosarian2]

1) Vague suspicions on MonkeyMan and SB allow for potential backtracking because they were not defined. There's also the potential for stacking lynches because he pairs Snow_Bunny and MonkeyMan in such a way that could later mean they look like partners, or one looks more scummy if the other is town (cuz they suspect each other).

Huh? What would make you think that Snow Bunny and Monkey Man are partners? That seems quite unlikely at this point; I suppose it's not impossible that they're distancing, but that is not at all the impression I've been getting from their posts.

At this point, I'm actually more leaning towards thinking both of them could easily be town. If one of them is scum, it's probably monkeyman; Snow Bunny dosn't really look at all suspicious to me anymore. I doubt both are scum.

In any case, though, I think it's more likely that we'll find scum in the group of lurkers. I'm voting xofelf not just because I'm "trying to prod her" or whatever, I think she's more likely to be scum then anyone else in the game at the moment, because of her refusal to give any kind of content. She keeps promising she's going to give content "later" when she has time, and that's fine, but no way in hell am I going to let the pressure off of her before she does that, and neither should anyone else.

[Yosarian2]

Note that the above (that we should keep pressuring someone especally if they keep promising to "give content later") also applies to Jeebus, although not quite as much.

Jeebus is "posting just barely enough to not get replaced, but not saying anything", and xofelf is posting more then that; just by her number of posts, I wouldn't even call her a lurker, but she hasn't said anything at all yet, although she keeps promising to do so when she has more time. Both of those types of behaviors are huge scumtells, and I'd gladly lynch either one of them today.

[Yosarian2]

Also, on a side note, if I'm right and at least one of the lurkers is scum, Jahudo is their most likely scum buddy. I really don't like the way he's trying to prevent me from pressuring the lurkers; town should always be in favor of going after lurkers, and the fact he's trying to pressure me into not doing so makes me wonder if he's Xofelf or Jebus's scum partner.

[Yosarian2]

Yos, what do you think of Jahudo's accusation that you're "not in the group conversation"?

I think it's absurd. I've been a big part of "the group conversation" all game.

[Yosarian2]

Yos, what do you think of Jahudo's accusation that you're "not in the group conversation"?

I think it's absurd. I've been a big part of "the group conversation" all game.

What's your definition of the group conversation? Mine does not include setup, theory or general gameplay talk. It does include stances and questions for the other players in the game when multiple people find a reason to focus on them. You have made vague observations about several people, but mostly and recently Monkey and SB.

I think I've commented on many things, I've had back and fourth discusses with most active people in the game, I've said what I thought, I led a bandwagon and debated it with several people, and I've commented on many people in the game.

Anyway, at this early stage in the game, what's wrong with a general, somewhat vauge, "I think person X is acting oddly" gut based comment about a player? If I had some specific scumtells Monkey had made that I wanted to point out, I would have.

[Yosarian2]

unvote

Vote:Monkeyman

Really, really odd play coming from him.

We will want to test Chaco's claim. I suggest that we wait until we've decided to lynch someone today and then, instead of hammering that person, we have Chaco do it. Otherwise, him using his claimed ability costs us all the information from a normal bandwagon, which seems like a bad thing.

Vague suspicion and setup talk. Did you really not have a specific scumtell on Monkey to point out from that event?

Well, there were a bunch of things that Monkey had done that, while they may or may not be strong scumtells, certanly were odd.

The whole way he responded to the Serephem situation seemed odd. Jester speculation, for one. The suggestion that Serephem might have been a jester who "fake-claimed the kill in order to get lynched" (even though he claimed the kill BEFORE IT HAPPENED). Then he just flatly declared that

Either he is lying about the day not ending or his is lying about being lynchproof. It would behoove us to find out which.

Which again, dosn't make any sense to me as an assumption, just seemed really odd (and was false).

Then his whole attack on Snow Bunny for "not answering his question" was pretty silly as well.

I don't know. I'm not sure how much of that is just his normal playstyle and how much of that is scummy. But it certainly is odd behavior to say the least, and at the point when I voted him, that was the best thing I had to go on.

[Yosarian2]

She seems hell bent on me getting lynched and seems to want to discourage any discussion of other candidates or possibilities. Plus her constantly calling me scum every post I attack her is appeal to emotion. "You wish scum!". "Let's lynch monkeyman already!".

Yes, she has been devoting quite a bit of energy to getting you lynched. Do you think that trying very hard to get someone lynched, using techniques like repetition and such to emphasize how serious you are about trying to run up a person and to increase the pressure on them, is really an inherent scum tell? I see pro-town people do that exact same thing all the time; I do it myself, sometimes, when I'm really sure of myself.

I certainly understand that you don't like it, since it's aimed at you, but I'm not clear how that's supposed to be a scumtell. Could you explain?

She's not recognizing that there are a good many players that are suspicious of her behavior and that she is just as good a candidate as me(if not more so) at this point.

I don't get what you're saying here. You think that, because people are suspicious of her, she should...not be attacking you? Why?

@yos: Jester speculation is not scummy.

Jester speculation is always a bad idea. It was especially absurd in this case since it didn't really make any sense.

I'm not going to call it a scumtell here, because I don't really know why scum would be motivated to either prevent or cause the lynch of someone unlynchable, but it's just not a good idea for you to ever do as town.

My comment about Seraphim being unlynchable was just me stating my opinion that it was a scummy claim, and easily testible.

But that's not what you said...

And Snow Bunny has been active lurking the whole game, so there's nothing "silly" about calling her out.

Huh? Like you just, said that she's been trying quite hard to get you lynched. That's pretty much the exact opposite of "active lurking".

[Yosarian2]

@lurker voters:
What is the endgame of voting a lurker like xofelf, who I believe is just having V/LA issues? Do you lynch them if they don't show up after a certain period of time? Say deadline is today and nothing is changed. Would you rather lynch xofelf, who has little-to-no connections, or someone like Jahudo who could have connections with everybody? Me, I'd vote Jahudo. But that's just me.

(shrug) All else being equal, I'd rather lynch someone who has done nothing game-relevant then a person who has done some game relevant things. If someone has voted, has scumhunted, has discussed stratagy or mechanics, has done SOMETHING that I'd consider acting in a pro-town way (here, I mean "acted in a way helpful to the town", the opposite of anti-town), then that inherently makes them look more pro-town in my eyes then someone who has done nothing.

Also, I hardly think that xofelf has little to no connections. So far, I've been attacking her, so have other people, and you've been defending her. Other people have avoided commenting on the wagon. If she flips scum, I think we get a fair amount of information about her possible connections.

Anyway, if she's been having V/LA issues, that's fine, but she's posted in this game 23 times so far. If she didn't have time to do a detailed game analysis or something, I'd understand that. But how much time does it take to read one post, quote it, and say "This post sounds bad, FOS:you"? Or to vote a lurker? Or to ask someone a question? Or to make a quick comment about if she thought it was a good idea to lynch someone who claimed unlynchable or not? If she's had time to make 23 posts, she should have had time to do something that was at least a LITTLE bit game relevant, and she's chosen not to. I have to consider that a possible tell of her alignment; it seems likely to me that she has absolutely no interest in even trying to help the town find scum, because she hasn't shown any yet.

[Yosarian2]

She seems hell bent on me getting lynched and seems to want to discourage any discussion of other candidates or possibilities. Plus her constantly calling me scum every post I attack her is appeal to emotion. "You wish scum!". "Let's lynch monkeyman already!".

Yes, she has been devoting quite a bit of energy to getting you lynched. Do you think that trying very hard to get someone lynched, using techniques like repetition and such to emphasize how serious you are about trying to run up a person and to increase the pressure on them, is really an inherent scum tell? I see pro-town people do that exact same thing all the time; I do it myself, sometimes, when I'm really sure of myself.

I certainly understand that you don't like it, since it's aimed at you, but I'm not clear how that's supposed to be a scumtell. Could you explain?

Consistantly using appeal to emotion rather than logical arguments is a scumtell.

I wouldn't describe what she's been doing as an "appeal to emotions". More like just constantly repeating "I'd like to lynch player X", which is a common tactic used to demonstrate how serious someone is and how committed they are to a wagon. Glork, for example, does that all the time. I don't have a problem with people doing that.

Seraphim's behavior was erratic and it seemed to me to be a possible jester situation. If he was a jester, then it would be good for the town to know about it so they could make an informed decision.

I'm going to drop this, because it's not really relevant to this game anymore, and I don't think it says much about your alignment. Let me just end by saying that very often, when someone is acting odd or scummy, someone says "hey, what if they're a jester?", and they're almost always wrong. Thinking like that is really just a distraction; jesters are really, really rare, and worrying about them whenever someone looks scummy or erratic is just counterproductive, in my experience.

[Yosarian2]

Cobalt feels pretty townish at the moment, Jahudo, besides the fact that he also claimed a role that's absurdly easy to prove and would probably be unbalancingly overpowered in scum hands; I will still want him to confirm his role, mostly because it's not really useful for anything else, but the odds of him being scum are pretty low.

Your attacks, your whole behavior today, really seems off to me, Jahudo. I just can't see you as town coming to a lot of the conclusions you have. Also, I find it increasingly scummy the way he vaugly talks about how we shouldn't do "policy lynches", it really feels like that's just another way for him to do a "soft-defend" of Xofelf while trying to not tie himself to her too directly.

I've got a growing hunch here that we're dealing with a scumteam here that includes both Jahudo and Xofelf, and I'd be happy lynching either one of them today.

[Yosarian2]

You are thinking of Chaco, not Cobalt. Chaco should still be the one to hammer from L-2, but Cobalt is the one that mistook L-2 for L-1, fluff posts, and is now active lurking.

(nods) You are correct, my mistake.

Meh, you're free to keep thinking I'd defend a scumbuddy but that doesn't sound like fun.
Its WIFOM coming from me, so take this with a grain of salt, but I love to bus, bus, and distance.
You remember the distancing right? Xofelf is a liabillity I would have ditched on page 1.

Eh...all good scum play involved bussing some of the time and defending buddies in other situations. I'm sure anyone can find a bunch of examples of themselves bussing , but that dosn't actually prove they don't defend scumbudies.

I do see where you're coming from, xofelf might be a logical "bus", but it just feels like you've been defending her in these odd, oblique ways, where you try to derail her bandwagon while trying to avoid even mentioning her name, and that just seems scummy to me.

No, I'm discouraging a lurker lynch because we are essentially on Day 2 and you don't get good bandwagon analysis from a policy lynch. How is this point not valid?

Well, for one, you keep calling Xofelf a "policy lynch", which is just not correct. A policy lynch is when you lynch someone because they're acting in an anti-town way even if you don't think they're scum. Xofelf is acting in an anti-town way, but I mostly want to lynch her because I think she's more likely scum then anyone else in the game. All of her play so far this game, and the way she's reacted to pressure so far, just looks like scum play to me; none of it seems like an honest attempt to help the town, at all, it's all combination of stalling, random spam, and then when under attack a series of appeals to emotion. This isn't a "policy lynch" at all, at least not on my part, it's an attempt to lynch someone who looks like scum to me.

Also, you keep saying that we "won't get good bandwagon analysis" from an Xofelf lynch. Why? Most people in the game have commented on her wagon, and on what they think about it.

You asked me a question a while back, let me turn it around on you. What's your endgame on Xofelf? She's clearly never going to be replaced, assuming she keeps posting at the rate she's posting now. How long do you intend to just sit back and allow her to continue to do nothing? If she continues to do nothing, and if you don't think her current behavior looks like scum behavior to you, how do you ever intend to figure out her alignment? Or do you think we should just ignore her and let her lurk all the way through until endgame, and thus just lose the game to her if she's lurkerscum?

[Yosarian2]

Yos seems rather adamant about me using my ability D1.

(nods) Yeah. I think you're town, but honestly, the only use your ability has is that it's testable. Otherwise, giving the ability to someone to end the day early without a majority lynch is probably much more likely to hurt the town then help it, even if that ability is in the hands of a pro-town person. (For evidence, see: every Bad Idea mafia game ever.)

[Yosarian2]

One solution I'm hoping for is a role to take care of the situation, like a cop or vig, but if I feel there is no better lynch at deadline I will join her wagon. I don't have a reason to believe she is town, but I have reasons to place other people ahead of her in my scumlist.

Eh. A cop should never, ever investigate a useless lurker. That's just a waste of a cop investigation; if the person comes up guilty, then it's worthless because they would have been lynched anyway, and if the person comes up innocent, then the cop ends up having to claim and probably get nightkilled just in order to prevent a useless lurker from being lynched.

If someone's a useless lurker, you don't waste a cop investigation on them; most cop investigations will come up innocent, so it's best to use them on people who will actually be useful if they become a confirmed innocent. It's better to just lynch them and investigate someone else.

Your attacks, your whole behavior today, really seems off to me, Jahudo.

What about my attacks?

[/quote]

Most of them kind of seem to be coming out of left field. Your original reaction to the Seraphim claim seemed a little strange to me. You also went through kind of a weird thought process in trying to figure out who made that day-kill, in a way that didn't really seem town to me; it seems like you're assuming the daykiller would come on, post in the thread, and make the day-kill at exactly the same time, when of course, if the second daykiller is scum, it would have made more sense for him or her to make the daykill without posting so as to be less conspicuous. Based on that weird logic, you then decided the daykiller had to be "Cobalt, Monkey, or Yos", and you've been sticking to that ever since.

I'm also getting a vibe that you were trying to manipulate me into getting into a fight with Monkey and/or Snow_Bunny, by trying to force me to create a case against them; I'm really wondering if you were trying to stir up a fight there, possibly to derail me from attacking Xofelf.

[Yosarian2]

Yos2: Is Cobalt (not Chaco) a "good lynch"?

Eh, I'm not really suspicious of Cobalt at the moment. He's been reasonably active (albiet with mostly short one or two line posts, but at least they've been game-relevant posts and he's been posting them every day), his suspicions so far this game generally seem reasonable and understandable to me, as do his reactions to different things going on in the game. Jahudo is right that Cobalt voting an unlynchable is a little odd, but to me it looks like an understandable reaction to Cobalt's frustration with Seraphim's "Hey, let me confirm my role, ok now I'm confirmed so I don't need to post any more" lurking behavior. We're obviously not going to lynch Seraphim again, but I'm never going to criticize someone for trying to get a lurker to post.

I wouldn't say I have a strong town read on Cobalt yet or anything, but he wouldn't be in any list of my top suspects at the moment.

[Yosarian2]

EBWOP: To be clear, Cobalt WAS reasonably active from the start of the game until Wednesday of last week, when he suddenly vanished. Hopefully he'll respond to the prod and we'll hear back from him soon.

[Yosarian2]

If Jebus continues to post just barely enough to not be replaced, I wouldn't mind lynching him. I still think xofelf's behavior is even worse.

[Yosarian2]

Btw, aren't we, like, close to deadline?

(checks rules)

Yeah, you're right. It says 21 days, which I think means we only have until this saturday.

Pro tip. Deadline is shown in EVERY VOTECOUNT. I'll dispense insults when I get back from choir btw

[Yosarian2]

At this point, I'd rather replace Jebus and lynch Xofelf.

[Yosarian2]

Conclusions: Replace xofelf. Don't lynch her.

I respect your analysis there, the fact that you're willing to go into that much detail makes you look more pro-town in my mind.

However, I still don't think it looks like replacing xofelf is going to be a practical option.

Anyway, on the matter with Jahudo, I think we're much better off replacing him, if we can. At the very least, if we're really set on lynching him, getting a claim out first seems like it would be more beneficial to the town.

It's practical if she doesn't respond to her prod and post in thread in the next...24ish hours, or she requests replacement

[Yosarian2]

(sigh) Yes, yes I mean Jebus. I've got to stop confusing names, that's already the second time this game I've done that.

Well, at least this isn't like that one game where I played with both Tamuz and Tomez, or however you spell their names.

[Yosarian2]

Vote: Extention

[Yosarian2]

Gotcha. If I had to find 1 scum and had two lynches available I would go {Cobalt, MonkeyMan} or {Cobalt, Yosarian2} before I went {Slicey, xofelf's replacement} for the best chance to find 1 or even 2 scum.

:eyebrow:

Is there some reason you keep listing me as a suspect, Jahudo?

[Yosarian2]

The Sixth "Reclaim" Vote Count

9. Cobalt (2)

: Sociopath

This was proof that Socio was a doublevoter. The vote count was at October 30, 8:59 AM. Socio was killed about 12 hours later. People who posted between that votecount and when Socio was killed:

Cobalt (who noticed it, but didn't assume Socio was a doublevoter.)
Monkeyman
Snow Bunny
Jahudo
Chaco
Yos

One of these is probably our day killer. Chaco is most likely not our daykiller. I don't think it's Yos or Snow Bunny either. That leaves Monkey, Jahudo and Cobalt. Monkey was embroiled in an argument with Snow Bunny, so I don't think it can be him. Cobalt was the only one who noticed the doublevote and he was also being attacked by Socio a lot at the time.

You're making the same assumption Jahudo is.

If there is a scum daykiller, and he wants to kill someone who's obvtown in broad daylight, the smart thing to do would be to not post right before making that kill, in order to avoid people doing this kind of analysis.

[Yosarian2]

@Yos: Your defense in 427 supported my original hypothesis, so I still like my case.

Your "origional hypothesis"? What's that?

I said all along that I was voting Monkeyman based on some oddities in his play, some things that seemed strange to me; it was never a strong vote, but at the time it was the best I had to go on. When you asked me about it, I explained what they were in some detail.

That is the correct pro-town way to act in the situation, I believe; on day 1 if you don't have much to go on, it's still better to persue it and put some pressure somewhere then to do nothing.

[Yosarian2]

I have role information that says there is a cult.

:eyebrow:

Ok. I'm not going to press for details right now, but you've got me incredibly curious.

Chaco, that's why I asked if your ability was one shot. One shot autolynch cult recruiter could be balanced.

...really? How?

Even a regular cult recruiter is very hard to balance. Giving him an extra one shot autolynch just seems unfair.

Frankly, giving any scum a one shot autolynch just seems unfair, since they can just hold onto it until endgame and then just win by surprise out of nowhere. That's one reason I believe chaco; it's an ability that makes a lot more sense to me as a town ability then as a scum ability.

As a town ability, it's a temptation, a "do you really think you're better then everyone else" way for the mod to mess with someone's head, without actually changing the balance of the game; it's a role that dosn't really help the town much or at all and yet is very interesting. As a scum role, it's probably borderline broken; it can just steal a win out of nowhere in a way that's likely to seem quite unfair to the town. So, town seems more likely to me, from a game design perspective.

[Yosarian2]

Yos, go read Empire at War Mafia, or just the last day, where scum did exactly what you just said. Then look at the mod for that game and then look at the mod for this game.

mmm. Yeah, no offense to anyone, but that's not really good game design.

In any case, though, if Chao was a scum with that ability, I would expect him to not claim it day 1; the logical thing for him to do would be to delay it as long as possible, and hopefully keep it hidden until endgame.

Anyway, let's test Chao's ability today, and then we can discuss this tomorrow. (Franky, if he was a scum with a one shot instant-lynch ability, we wouldn't be able to lynch him today anyway, heh)

[Yosarian2]

Flavor arguments like this are rarely accurate.

I believe Slicey that there is a cult. I can think of any number of roles that might know there's a cult, and I don't want to know which one Slicey is right now. However, I think it's highly, highly unlikely that Chaco is the cult leader. A cult leader who can instant lynch would just be absurd, and any argument based on "Well, X is probably a bad guy because his character is bad" just fails about 98% of the time on mafiascum, because most mods intentionally put improbable flavor into their games just to make sure people can't figure stuff out like that.

I think Slicey is town. The way RayFrost is trying to push this, to the point of actually attacking SB for disagreeing with it, seems really scummy to me.

Confirm vote:Rayfrost

[Yosarian2]

@Yos: Is this the post you say Ray is attacking SB?

Hmm... I'll believe the cult thing now. I've never played a game with a cult before, though. However, though one would think the anti-spiral claim can be from a cult leader, I don't think it is. A fakeclaim would have been better (wifom included). In fact, I believe its even more plausible that Slicey IS the cult recruiter. But that's not the case either. (I even liked the theory that Kamina could be a recruiter)

Feeling 100% confident that slicey is not the recruiter is noted.

@Ray: How do you interpret that Snow is 100% confident about who is or is not the recruiter from that quote?

Yeah, that's it. It feels like Ray is just trying to railroad someone who's not him into getting lynched here. Between Xofelf's scummy behavior, and Ray's behavior so far, I'm pretty happy lynching that player spot today.

[Yosarian2]

Jahudo: If it's lynch or lose, why would you vote right out of the gate?

Also, we might want to think about massclaiming.

[Yosarian2]

Snow bunny is telling the truth.

Last night, I did target Vi. I am a tracker. Last night, Vi targeted Slicey.

So, either the scum killed Vi directly, or the scum tried to kill Slicey and were blocked by Vi's bodyguard.

[Yosarian2]

And I can't imagine how Snow Bunny could have known that if she's not telling the truth; she has to be a watcher.

I suppose it's theoretically possible she's a scum watcher or tracker, but that seems unlikely, and I think she as to be some kind of information role like that. I'm not sure what to think of Cobalt here; on the face of it,

Oh, and I just realized i forgot to claim my rolename. I am Jorgun, Townie Tracker.

[Yosarian2]

EBWOP: Opps, forgot to finish the sentence. Should have said " I'm not sure what to think of Cobalt here; on the face of it, he appears to be lying, but I don't understand why he would lie about that as a scum, I can't imagine how scum-Cobalt would think he could get away with that."

[Yosarian2]

It's my word against Snow's. I'll try to prepare a case laster tonight, but I've got a big exam tomorrow, so it might have to wait till tomorrow afternoon.

Well, except snow is obviously telling the truth. She clearly knew about Jahudo's target before he claimed it, and she knew about mine as well.

Logically, the most likely scenario here is that you are lying. Less likely are that Snow is a mafia watcher who told "two truths and a lie" in order to get a mislynch on you and win the game for the scum, or that there's some bizzare interaction of roles doing something odd.

Your reaction confuses me a bit; if you were scum; I'd expect you to claim something. SB is confimred to be telling the truth about being an information role here, though, so I really need another explanation for what happened here, or I'm probably going to have to vote for you.

[Yosarian2]

SLicey: I was pretty sure you were town here, and that the scum tried to kill you but were prevented from doing so by Vi's bodyguarding you. In fact, the entire reason I pushed for a mass claim in the first place was because I felt like I had role information that semi-confirmed you as town.

But it makes me reeeeally uncomfortable to see you voting for a confirmed information role here, in a lynch or lose situation, especally when we haven't even finished our mass claim yet. Did you really miss SB's obvious breadcrumb in the start of the day, that she made before Jahodo claimed?

[Yosarian2]

Actually I claimed that I had targeted Vi before S_B claimed anything.

Right, but she breadcrumbed the hell out of it before you claimed; it's completely obvious in retrospect that she knew that both you and I (and presumably chamber/Chaco) targeted Vi before either of us said anything.

Look at these posts she made before you claimed today:

One of chamber, Yos and Jahudo is scum. As I'm getting town vibes from Yos, I'm leaning towards chamber or Jahudo.

and

I agree with massclaiming.

But I want either Jahudo and Chaco to start with it. Gogogogogo.

and

Jahudo, please claim. Also, add to that what you did last night.

Then, Chaco, do the same.

I think her breadcrumbs are really obvious there.

What makes me REALLY question Slicey was that HE EVEN PICKED UP on the breadcrumbs before either you or she claimed, and now he's trying to pretend that he didn't.

Jahudo, please claim. Also, add to that what you did last night.

Then, Chaco, do the same.

Just so you know, I really hope you don't claim what YOU did last night. This is a very family friendly forum and telling us about things like that is...a little much

How do you know Jahudo had a night action?

I think it's most likely now that there Chaco is scum and Slicey is his scumbuddy. A town info role who's been confimred both by me and by breadcrumbs, claimes she saw Chaco target the guy who got killed, Chaco denied it, and Slicey's first reaction is to...believe the guy seen doing the kill over the claimed (and now semi-confirmed) investigative role, and then rush to vote the claimed investigative role over the guy she claimed to get information against? That is NOT a reaction I think I've ever seen from a pro-town player.

And if Chaco and Slicey are scum, there's probably not a cult at all, it's probably just a red herring created by Slicey.

[Yosarian2]

Chaco was that you ending the day?

I have a gut feeling this setup is too kill happy for a 3-man scum team but if there is a 3-man mafia we're in MYLO.

Still feeling this:

Vote: chamber

Jahudo, this is your post right after Day 2 start, and the only one before my post. Where, then, did you say before me that you targeted Vi?

Well, he is right that he claimed before you claimed, SB. He may have just missed your bread crumb.

Also, if Chaco is scum and killed Vi last night, then Jahudo is probably not mafia; I can't think of many scum roles that would want to target the same guy that they're nightkilling that night. I guess scum driver, but that's incredibly rare around here.

[Yosarian2]

...
Yes, everywhere I said chaco in the last two posts, I meant cobalt.

Damn it.

[Yosarian2]

Although it looks like you kept making the same mistake SB, lol

[Yosarian2]

Eh, I was doing the same thing yesterday too.

[Yosarian2]

Hmm.

There might be as many as 2 cult right now; one recruiter, and one recruited.

If there's 3 mafia, then we have to lynch mafia today or lose. If there's 2 mafia, then we could lynch either mafia or the cult leader and have a chance.

If we lynch a mafia member, then the mafia needs to kill cult tonight, ideally the cult leader although either will do, or else the cult will win tonight. Assuming there's a cult leader and a cult recruit now, then one more recruit, and the cult will be a majority tommorow.

If you're telling the truth, Monkey, then the mafia now knows Jahudo is cult, and they know they have to kill him tonight or they lose on the spot. If they want to have any chance of winning, they simply have no choice in the matter. So I think our best bet is to lynch Cobalt the mafia member now, and then his partner or partners whoever they are have to kill Jahudo tonight or else they simply lose on the spot.

[Yosarian2]

I'm not convinced you're town, SB, so I don't have a reason to listen to your advice. If you are recruited cult you could have maintained your watcher powers.

That's possible, MM, but if so, she would still want us to lynch mafia today, since the mafia is the biggest threat to the cult, so we should still listen to her.

Also, as far as I'm concerned, I trust her more then I do you at the moment; I think it's likely that you're both telling the truth, but she's confirmed her ability, and you haven't, yet.

[Yosarian2]

Ok, sweet, MonkeyMan is now confirmed town as well. That helps a lot.

Cobalt, we know you're scum. Just tell us, how many partners do you have?

[Yosarian2]

[quote="Jahudo"
By this point Yosarian has taken S_B's side and is trying to lynch Cobalt. He provides the voice that overpowers Monkey until tomorrow. My theory was virtually confirmed when he reacted to my cult claim. Yos put all his chips in by calling Monkey "confirmed town", instead of just "confirmed power role". Then he goes back to the myth that Cobalt is mafia and has partners.[/quote]

I was trying to lynch cobalt because SB's role was 100% confirmed to me, since she knew what I did before I claimed it.

Franky, I didn't trust Monkey at all; one possible theory I was thinking was that him and Slicey were both mafia, probably with Cobalt, and they were faking the whole "cult" thing just to mess with us, especially since Monkey was one of my suspects for much of the game; I came very close to getting him lynched yesterday, in fact. I only considered Monkey confirmed after you confessed. (And, yes, if he claimed to investigate you as cult, and then you confirmed it, I woudl think that makes him both confirmed power role and pretty much confirmed town.)

Anyway, your retraction is obviously a last ditch effort to avoid being lynched here. There's no way a town person would react to someone falsly claiming a guilty on them by ADMITTING IT. That's just insane; if you were town, you would have declared Monkey was scum and voted for him. It's quite obvious now that you're cult; you confessed to being cult when you thought we'd lynch Cobalt instead of you if you confessed, but when you realized you were about to get lynched, you retracted it. I have enough confidence in you as a player to believe you would not do something as absurd as claim cult as town in response to someone claiming a guilty on you.

On the other hand, I don't really believe Cobalt either, although his claim is more likely then yours. I'm glad I got him to confess being scum, but I think a mafia member in his position would claim SK to try to avoid being lynched today. I suspect that we're dealing with a 2 man scum group here with a nightkill that also had a one-shot daykill, and that that group is Cobalt and probably Slicey.

I don't think we have a 3 man mafia group, though. If we did, Jahudo the cult leader would have been speedlynched by now. And, if there's a two man scum group+ a cult recruiter, or else a SK and a cult recruiter, out best bet is to lynch the cult recruiter today; if he lives until tonight, then he gets to recruit someone else before he dies, and that's a headache we don't need.

So, I think the right thing to do here is to lynch Jahudo, the cult recruiter. After he's gone, we'll probably be in a 5 player endgame with 2 mafia, but that's better then having one more townie get recruited tonight and then having to track down and find that guy later, that's just a huge pain in the tush.

Vote:Jahudo

[Yosarian2]

Wait; was Jahudo acutally hammered? Did he actually say all that after he got hammered?

Damnit, you'd better be cult Jahudo. If you really are town, then your stupid "claiming scum" gambit probably just gave the scum the game, since if you are town, then the scumteam obviously has to be monkey, slicey, and cobalt.

[Yosarian2]

So, you guys just won the game, right cobalt?

[Yosarian2]

No, I'm SK. I was just laughing at your late voting.

Heh, fair enough. It didn't register with me that it was after a hammer because the logical part of my brain refused to believe that a townie would ever claim cult recruiter a possible in lynch or lose in response to a claim of cult recruiter.

Well, whatever. I still think you're probably mafia; if you're actually a SK, then I have no bloody idea what's going on.

If Jahudo actually flips town somehow, then Monkey is probably mafia and probably part of a 3 man scum group, (since he would only fake a guilty if he was part of a 3 man mafia group who expected to win if they lynched right today), and if you actually are a SK, then you need to kill him. Frankly, that still dosn't seem to make much sense, but neither does anything else.

Also, if you're SK, then I'm really confused about why there was no mafia kill today or last night.

[Yosarian2]

k.

Note that if Jahudo does flip cult, then monkey's probably town. But if he flips town, then, yeah, kill monkey.

[Yosarian2]

Yeah, obviously.

Damnit, Jahudo. We would have lynched Cobalt and town would have won if you hadn't lied.

[Yosarian2]

Heh. I figured out the whole scum group on day 2, and then lost anyway. So frustrating.

Well since Slicey couldn't have confirmed me, I would have been lynched tomorrow anyway. All I could do was mason one person but everyone would have thought it was a recruit. I don't see how we could have unless mafia couldn't kill anymore.

Neah. As soon as I figured out Slicey was Cobalt's scumbuddy, I figured the whole cult thing was probably a giant red herring, and probably a complete lie. As I said in thread, I didn't really trust Monkeyman at all, either, although I didn't really want him to think I completly distrusted him because I needed his vote. You probably wouldn't have been lynched at all. I only changed my mind when you claimed.

That was also why I decided that perhaps there weren't 3 mafia after all; no way there'd be 3 mafia plus a cult, and also, the only way there could be 3 mafia was if Monkeyman was lying scum; and when you confirmed him as town by claiming cult, I had to reconsider.

Plus, we had two info roles. Scum might have killed one of us, but if they left either me or SB alive, we'd probably have had enough information tommorow to win, so long as we just managed to lynch Cobalt today.

Still, I am a dick for ruining this game forever. I apologize to the town and am going on a self-imposed ban for my crap play. I don't want to ruin future games for having a meta of insanity.

Eh, don't take it that harshly. It's a game, you had a plan, tried something, made a play error and lost. It happens, I do it all the time. Your play still wasn't nearly as bad as that of some other people in the game; at least you were active and logically scumhunting, plus you figured out Cobalt was scum long before I did. All in all, you really played a good game, except for that one error. Don't quit playing, just learn from it. Like I always say, the only way to get good at chess is to lose a lot.

[Yosarian2]

I'm more of a fan of winning, myself.

Well, you know, it helps when a pro-town player claims cult in lynch or lose, and then self votes and lets the 3 scum lynch him, right after the rest of the town had figured out exactly who the scum were and were just about to lynch them.

[Yosarian2]

Ok, sweet, MonkeyMan is now confirmed town as well. That helps a lot.

Right. Because up until the point Jahudo claimed cult, I was thinking Monkeyman was probably lying scum, but when he did, it seemed to prove Monkeyman town. Of course, it honestly never occurred to me that a pro-town player would claim cult.

[Yosarian2]

Don't quit playing, just learn from it. Like I always say, the only way to get good at chess is to lose a lot.

Maybe I'll just go to an alt for a while and try a different tone. Being the crazy photoshop joker is making me burn out...

(shrug) You don't need to make an alt to try for a different tone. You can change your whole playstyle under your account, and people generally don't worry much about it.

[Yosarian2]

Yeah, your day 1 play was good. The only problem was your claim; you put yourself in a place where you were going to have to either claim "cult cop", or "untargatable cult", and that would have gotten you caught eventually, as town would have eventually figured out there was no cult. However, you did a really good job at looking pro-town.

[Yosarian2]

Town, you suck. I told you MM was scum! But you ignored me! I told you Cobalt was scum, but you ignored me! I told you Slicey was scum, and you ignored me!!!!

I had deciphered the mafia scum by mid D2, and you ignored me!!!!!!

No, the town didn't ignore you.

It's ok, SB. We should have won that game, we had the bastards.

quote="Cobalt 902"]Snow Bunny is obviously an alt of Shinnen no Me.

...who was an alt of Magus_Stragus.
Actually, that kind of makes sense.

If that's the case, you should go back to that Remilia avatar I made

[/quote]

Just out of sheer curiosity, why does it matters this account is an alt? I no longer use those two.[/quote]

Ah, that's cool. Welcome back, haven't seen you in a while. Just out of curiosity, why use and alt.

[Yosarian2]

I freely admit I played garbage-tier this game.

(shrug) I actually thought you looked town-ish on day 1. In fact, you're the only scum I didn't vote for on day 1, hehe.