Mini 865 -- Evil Eyes (Over)

[xRECKONERx]

I hate you.

[Symbol]

Me too.

[Hoopla]

Hoopla, thoughts on MrSuave?

He's silly. I just finished another game with him recently where he was scum, and I foolishly played him the newb-town card which he milked for all it was worth. From Day 2 onward he did not help the town, and did not bring any unique thoughts to the game, and made no attempt to look for suspects. He lurked, was illogical, and non-committal.

He seems to be making more of an effort here, but I expect he would as town or scum, as he knows he won't ever get dealt the newbie card again. I don't have a read on him either way.

[Symbol]

Hey, you answered my follow-up Suave meta question in advance. Awesome.

Beefs:

Why aren't you helping?

I'm not sure what to make of this. Suave made a legitimate point. The first read-through, Hoopla's response here didn't bother me; the second time, I wondered why the heck she'd answer so sharply.

Why are you so keen to claim?

Fishing. Hoopla didn't have to say this in order to grasp Suave's understanding of role claims. She could have gone about it in a much more orthodox manner.

This

looks much more geared toward gauging the strength of Suave's role.

No, I am not scum. Are you scum? Please answer my question in exactly two words.

I don't remember what my problem was here. I think I wrote it down as an example of Hoopla's radical change in style: more chatty, less conventionally pro-town, if pro-town at all.

I don't think so, but claiming so early is not a situation we need. It was more a question to probe MrSuave's understanding of the claiming process. Recently (ongoing game) a player claimed after a two-vote wagon at the start of day 3. It was not a necessary claim.

This would be going along with iso. 8—Hoopla's question back then was, in my eyes, not at all constructed to this end.

Hoopla's post so far clearly focus on Suave, but I get the impression that she doesn't actually have him down as mafia, however anti-town or scummy she thinks he's acting. Which is weird. As for factoring in the out-of-left-field posting style, I would think scum are more inclined not to get experimental, which weakens my suspicion of her, but it's always dicey to read into those aspects. Meh.

[HowardRoark]

Vote Count (D1)

Nuwen (1) -- geekalicious
tubby216 (2) -- xRECKONERx, ekiM
Hoopla (1) -- MrSuave
MrSuave (3) -- julienvonwolfe, MacavityLock, Hoopla
geekalicious (1) -- iamausername
Symbol (2) -- tubby216, Nuwen

Toro

(1) --

Toro

iamausername (1) -- Symbol

Not Voting (0)

With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline: 12 NOV 2009 at 5:15 pm UTC (Countdown)

Seeking a replacement for Toro.

[MrSuave]

Hoopla, thoughts on MrSuave?

He's silly. I just finished another game with him recently where he was scum, and I foolishly played him the newb-town card which he milked for all it was worth. From Day 2 onward he did not help the town, and did not bring any unique thoughts to the game, and made no attempt to look for suspects. He lurked, was illogical, and non-committal.

He seems to be making more of an effort here, but I expect he would as town or scum, as he knows he won't ever get dealt the newbie card again. I don't have a read on him either way.

Now, can you blame me for milking it? Don't tell me that you wouldn't take advantage of something that everyone was so freely giving out... except my RL friend of course, but that's because he knew how I played xD. I also wouldn't say that I lurked, it was more like, people didn't want me to post in that game unless it was helpful, and I genuinly didn't know what helpful was at the time.
But if we're going back to that game, you're playing very VERY oddly for the play-style you showed me there. I know I'm repeating myself, but you seem to be quite fishy to me. That's why my vote is happily on you ^_^. Tell me honestly, are you mad that I won that game and just want revenge? D= Because that's not very nice, or helpful. =/

[Hoopla]

Now, can you blame me for milking it? Don't tell me that you wouldn't take advantage of something that everyone was so freely giving out... except my RL friend of course, but that's because he knew how I played xD. I also wouldn't say that I lurked, it was more like, people didn't want me to post in that game unless it was helpful, and I genuinly didn't know what helpful was at the time.
But if we're going back to that game, you're playing very VERY oddly for the play-style you showed me there. I know I'm repeating myself, but you seem to be quite fishy to me. That's why my vote is happily on you ^_^. Tell me honestly, are you mad that I won that game and just want revenge? D= Because that's not very nice, or helpful. =/

It's just a game, I'm not mad - if a situation is there to be exploited by scum, you have every right to take it. You'd have been stupid if you didn't.

[julienvonwolfe]

just a note to say that I will have limited activity until the weekend.

[xRECKONERx]

"Symbol" brings up some interesting points about Hoopla. I still don't like tubby's play at the moment (which, did anyone actually even comment on that?), but Hooplascum needs more votes.

Unvote, Vote: Hoopla

Though I still have my eyes on tubby and Suave.

[Symbol]

I don't like Tubby's play either, but it sounds like he always does this. I can't be bothered to look into it at the moment.

[Symbol]

Oh, I agree with the second half of that sentence, too.

Unvote. Vote: Hoopla.

I'm skeptical of a MrSuave wagon.

[iamausername]

Hoopla's answer

I don't think so, but claiming so early is not a situation we need. It was more a question to probe MrSuave's understanding of the claiming process.

is pretty much how I read it. I do think that a nervous and under-the-gun scum might be more willing to do something "big" (claim) to potentially change the story. I certainly don't think that would go for all players, but it might with a newer and more immature player. As such, I found it to be a pretty reasonable question.

Why would this only apply to a nervous and under-the-gun

scum

player?

I get a sour gut read off of iso. 2. I realize townies do this at times, but joking about alignment at your own expense is lame, and as far as I'm concerned it's painfully gratuitous as far as town strategy, methodology, win condition goes. Furthermore, it's a deliberate injection of WIFOM into the game at a stage when you really have no reason to do so.

Why no comment on Reckoner doing the same thing?

I'm intrigued that players are homing in on my unreasoned vote switch when they didn't home in on, for example, IAUN's.

True dat. Nuwen's explained why she didn't, and geek apparently assumed I was still random voting, but Macavity needs to explain himself.

Iam's unexplained voting differed from Symbolic's because of timing, as I explained before. The first few vote changes out of the RVS draw the entire game's attention. An unexplained vote 8 pages in does not have the same town implications to me (in fact, it's anti-town because it draws negative attention to your behavior. If you're town, that's bad. If you're scum, you're granted the opportunity to feel out which wagon you'll be pursuing).

If I'd found anyone else to be a better to vote than geek, I'd have continued the unexplained voting, because I completely agree with Symbol that it's very useful to see two reactions; both before and after you explain yourself.

I don't understand how not explaining your vote immediately gives you the opportunity to feel out which wagon you'll be pursuing. That seems like a reason from a completely different argument (Namely, throwing suspicion at a bunch of players at once) tacked onto this one because you couldn't actually come up with a reasonable scum motive for drawing negative attention to oneself.

My original read on Mike was vaguely lurker scum, but that instantly changed to null upon reread.

That's odd, because I've reread him a couple of times, and I'm still very much getting that impression. He's not making any attempt to go deeper than the most superficial of analysis, as far as I can see.

---

Still loving my geek vote. More people should join this wagon.

I guess I should explain. If there is one thing that scum don't like, it is townies figuring out who else is town. When I declared that Reckoner was my strongest town read, I did so entirely to see how people would react (which is not to say it wasn't true, but "strongest" is a relative term; I didn't have any strong town reads at the time). So, when geek, who I already had down as fairly suspicious, freaks the hell out about it, I am feeling very confident that I am onto something here.

I mean, I can see that town might disagree with a town read on Reckoner, I can see that town might ask me to explain my read, but taking it to the extent of going point by point through every one of Reckoner's posts to try to prove that I cannot possibly have the read that I say I have, I am struggling to see how that is anything but a scum reaction.

[MacavityLock]

Hoopla's answer

I don't think so, but claiming so early is not a situation we need. It was more a question to probe MrSuave's understanding of the claiming process.

is pretty much how I read it. I do think that a nervous and under-the-gun scum might be more willing to do something "big" (claim) to potentially change the story. I certainly don't think that would go for all players, but it might with a newer and more immature player. As such, I found it to be a pretty reasonable question.

Why would this only apply to a nervous and under-the-gun

scum

player?

Because scum have something to hide, while vanilla townies don't. This is very simplistic analysis (because as I said before, I don't think that I need to be sophisticated with regards to Suave), but yes, I think Suave-scum would have more reason to be nervous and react that way.

The above applies to vanilla, as I said. With regards to town power roles, again simplistic analysis would suggest that Suave-PR would've gone the other way and avoided mentioning the word "claim" at all costs.

No I don't have examples, so please don't ask. This is a gut read of a newer player.

[Symbol]

Preview edit: Macavity, for free pizza you should reply to the point IAUN made after the third quote in his post.

---

Beefs.

I didn't/don't like Iamausername's isos. 2 and 3. Basically, his argument was that Geek was scummy (or worthy of a vote, or whatever) for implicating Nuwen without voting for her in Geek's iso. 4. But Geek's post is clearly lacking in such naughtiness. It's a straight-up disagreement with Nuwen's viewpoint on an issue that doesn't indicate alignment. Even if Geek is scum, and even if he was attempting to paint her scummy without throwing his own name behind the argument, coming to such conclusions based on his post is really a stretch. (He does later crack down on Nuwen, but that's beside the point.)

So IAUN's isos. 2 and 3 look like a premature attack on Geek grounded in misconstruction of Geek's iso. 4. Also, I don't know why IAUN-town would leap into the fray so quickly. Letting the Geek-Nuwen debate unfold and

then

taking sides would have been the optimal scum-hunting route, in my eyes. Butting in early and attacking Geek implies non-scum-hunting motives on IAUN's part.

---

I like IAUN's last post a lot, though. (Hmm, I wonder why . . . )

I mean, I can see that town might disagree with a town read on Reckoner, I can see that town might ask me to explain my read, but taking it to the extent of going point by point through every one of Reckoner's posts to try to prove that I cannot possibly have the read that I say I have, I am struggling to see how that is anything but a scum reaction.

This is good posting. Note also that Geek's knee jerk came right after you criticized his interaction with Nuwen ("geek is clearly insinuating that Nuwen's questioning Suave's age is scummy, but refuses to actually say so outright, even when directly asked to").

Why no comment on Reckoner doing the same thing?

I was under the impression RECK was making a point against someone (Suave?). Looking back, though, I can't find anything. But I believe it's less likely scum would do it in the thick of things, like RECK—when paranoid townies start reading into anything and everything—than at the beginning of the game, like Nuwen.

Anyway, I have a vague town read on RECK, so at this point I'm not very interested in him either way. I'd rather cling to confirmation bias.

because you couldn't actually come up with a reasonable scum motive for drawing negative attention to oneself

Plus one.

True dat. Nuwen's explained why she didn't, and geek apparently assumed I was still random voting, but Macavity needs to explain himself.

He'll just give the same reason as Nuwen.

[MacavityLock]

Preview edit: Macavity, for free pizza you should reply to the point IAUN made after the third quote in his post.

Missed that. Will respond when I return from class.

[Symbol]

Meant to ask this yesterday:

Symbolic, do you think you found them all in your first post?

Why do you ask, Nuwen?

Macavity, two more questions for you, when you get back. What is your read on Hoopla? And who's your top suspect (after Suave)?

[MacavityLock]

I'm intrigued that players are homing in on my unreasoned vote switch when they didn't home in on, for example, IAUN's.

True dat. Nuwen's explained why she didn't, and geek apparently assumed I was still random voting, but Macavity needs to explain himself.

I was far less interested in the vote itself than I was in why you didn't think it was worth questioning. Your response of

It may not be deserving of a WTF, but it is definitely deserving of questioning.

I clearly asked the former and not the latter.

satisfied me.

Re: Hoopla. Mild town read currently. I really like early wagoning, which is what she did with both IAUN and Suave. Her iso 16 worries me though:

Hoopla, thoughts on MrSuave?

He's silly.

...

I don't have a read on him either way.

and yet the vote on him remains.

Re: other suspects. I've got my eye on both ekiM and JVW, both of whom I've seen as lurker scum recently, and neither of their contributions thus far makes me think their breaking that mold. I'll be interested to question Toro's replacement as well. I kind of lost the thread in the Geek-Nuwen-Symbol arguments, and it deserves a deeper read, which hopefully I will have time for tonight or tomorrow.

[MacavityLock]

EBWOP:

I've got my eye on both ekiM and JVW, both of whom I've seen as lurker scum recently, and neither of their contributions thus far makes me think

they're

breaking that mold.

[Symbol]

EBWOP:

I've got my eye on both ekiM and JVW, both of whom I've seen as lurker scum recently, and neither of their contributions thus far makes me think

they're

breaking that mold.

Yes, that was critical.

What about Tubby? I'd say he goes in the same box as Mike and Julien.

I was going to follow up with a question about Toro; good to see you haven't abandoned interest in him.

[MacavityLock]

EBWOP:

I've got my eye on both ekiM and JVW, both of whom I've seen as lurker scum recently, and neither of their contributions thus far makes me think

they're

breaking that mold.

Yes, that was critical.

Clearly wasn't, but I hate bad grammar.

What about Tubby? I'd say he goes in the same box as Mike and Julien.

What's true for ekiM and JVW is not necessarily for tubby. I've only ever played with tubby once as far as I remember, he was scum in that game, and thus far, his play in these two doesn't seem similar. (He was actually more attentive in that one.) He doesn't officially bother me yet.

[geekalicious]

Since Nuwen squandered her chance to post a reaction I could twist into lynch material, I guess I'll lay out my beef with her right now.

I don't like the tone I get from this. You were deliberately seeking material you could "twist"?

I guess I should explain. If there is one thing that scum don't like, it is townies figuring out who else is town. When I declared that Reckoner was my strongest town read, I did so entirely to see how people would react (which is not to say it wasn't true, but "strongest" is a relative term; I didn't have any strong town reads at the time). So, when geek, who I already had down as fairly suspicious, freaks the hell out about it, I am feeling very confident that I am onto something here.

I mean, I can see that town might disagree with a town read on Reckoner, I can see that town might ask me to explain my read, but taking it to the extent of going point by point through every one of Reckoner's posts to try to prove that I cannot possibly have the read that I say I have, I am struggling to see how that is anything but a scum reaction.

Not seeing exactly how I freaked out about the situation. I deliberately posted what xRECKONERx had done up until that point in the game to see if you could point to something concrete that had given you a town feel on him rather than just a general vibe.

I'm trying to figure out how to explain it in more words than 'gut'. I think it might be more based on how everyone else has reacted to your posts than your posts in themselves. I'm not seeing any potential scum partner reactions there, while there are some potential "scum looking for easy target" reactions.

Also, note that here you explain your pinging xRECKONERx for strongest town vibe because of gut feeling. In your most recent post, however, you admit that you did so "entirely" to see how others would react (while appending a vague explanation about what you mean by "strongest"), thus contradicting yourself.

You know what?

unvote

Vote: iamausername

[Symbol]

Good grief.

Unvote. Vote: geekalicious.

Nuwen better have been distancing, or I have some serious reanalysis on my plate.

[MacavityLock]

Mass FOSes are for pussies and scum.

Nuwen, have you stated this belief/opinion/tell in a previous game? If so, link please?

IAUN brings up very good points on geek, especially the Reck-town freakout stuff, and the geek-wagon is a good one.

Also, note that here you explain your pinging xRECKONERx for strongest town vibe because of gut feeling. In your most recent post, however, you admit that you did so "entirely" to see how others would react (while appending a vague explanation about what you mean by "strongest"), thus contradicting yourself.

Where is contradiction?

Still I like my Suave vote for now. Note what Suave hasn't been doing: scumhunting.

[Symbol]

RECK, wagon Geek.

[Symbol]

Fuck it, then.

Since Nuwen squandered her chance to post a reaction I could twist into lynch material, I guess I'll lay out my beef with her right now.

I don't like the tone I get from this. You were deliberately seeking material you could "twist"?

Do you not understand the concept of facetious self-deprecation? Also, could you have possibly concocted/worded a gut feeling in a more contrived way?

Not seeing exactly how I freaked out about the situation. I deliberately posted what xRECKONERx had done up until that point in the game to see if you could point to something concrete that had given you a town feel on him rather than just a general vibe.

What on earth is wrong with intuitive town reads? Why do you drag on conversation about a town player? You're putting RECK in the limelight; you're hanging a sign over his head that says, "Look, scum, night kill goes here!"

Also, note that here you explain your pinging xRECKONERx for strongest town vibe because of gut feeling. In your most recent post, however, you admit that you did so "entirely" to see how others would react (while appending a vague explanation about what you mean by "strongest"), thus contradicting yourself.

You think townies never make gambits, let alone hilariously miniature ones like this? Regardless, IAUN could still have had a gut read and used it to gauge reactions. his explanations don't necessarily contradict each other.

You know what?

unvote

Vote: iamausername

Because he contradicted himself about a very early instinctual town read, and because he made a legitimate criticism of your RECK PBPA? Please. You're saying that you didn't freak out about RECK, not that the logic IAUN used after he made that judgment was scummy. This vote is a purely defensive measure.