Mini 848 - Second String Muppets Mafia - Game Over.

[charter]

Heyhey. Going to read up and post thoughts tonight since I won't have much access for a few days.

unvote

[charter]

First things first. I am a

Paranoid Gun Owner

. This means it would be unwise to target me at night, you'll die. Any questions?

Now, catch up time.

26- What the... How can someone type that many words in their first post. I'll let you decide how to use your role.
42- Did Jordan just claim scum who can talk out of thread?
45- Possible Ectomancer/MacavityLock pairing.
48- Wow, "I did it for reactions" from Jordan which is pretty much the same as saying "Lynch me, I'm scum".
53- Good lord, more Ecto/ML pairing.
58- HA! Scumbag. Kirbyoshi. Totally calling this as Ecto/ML/Kirby.
62- Holy crap! Ecto is using "posting under an alt" as a scumtell? Reaching to the moon with that one. The rest of his post is scummy as well. He has done nothing but try and get Monkey lynched. I need to go back to see if there was any alignment discerning he did, but I don't recall any.
66- HOLY FREAKING CRAP!%$#$@%#$ Kirbyoshi votes EK because she voted Ecto. Obvbuddies.
70- Dang, ekiM could be scum too.
92- !@$#@ Another scum, I'm up to like five now. Now is Eldritch Lord. Please explain how posting on an alt is scummy.
99- Wow. I'm not sure if EL is scum anymore. This post is so ridiculously bad, I don't see how he could've possibly expected it to fly.
151- Let scum quickhammer and give themselves up. Claiming before a lynch is threatening is very anti-town.
154- Oh dear lord. Can it be any more obvious Kirbyoshi is scum?
162- DDD, very sad. I thought you were pretty obvtown up until this point. A shame you blew that apart.
163- Very scummy from Ecto.
166- Contradictory post by EL. Says he's not ready for L-1 but is voting MM and gave me the distinct impression he thought MM was scum. However, a vote on DDD not making sense if he is scum (since MM is obvtown and he could easily be lynched at this point) coupled with his earlier odd posts, and I will demote him from scumbag to neutral.
193- Completely shatters my town read of Elvis. She didn't mention a single thing I did in this, so we're clearly not thinking together, and then she starts to shift on to the MM wagon.
195- Elvis falls down a long set of stairs.
203- Gah, superscummy post by EL. I keep flip flopping on him. Appears to be voting MM to hear a roleclaim. Also because he only mentions looking at people for bussing if MM is scum.
214- ARE YOU FREAKING KIDDING ME????????????? Ectomancer UNVOTES MM????
224- Oh man, best post of the game.
Didn't read any of the pointless theory debate after MM already claimed vanilla.
252- Nothing in this post is right.

Alright, imma break it down. People are going to unvote MonkeyMan. He is very clearly not scum, I just read the game, and it's obvious. Ectomancer and Kirbyoshi very obviously are scum. I'll expound on this in my next post, give me a few. Also, I'll decide which is scummier and proceed in voting them.

Other things of note, springlulliby. She needs to step it up or replace.

[charter]

vote ectomancer

for not using his vote yet.

I find this scummy. You vote for ecto without building a case against him, then go on to talk about Jordan and SL, as if trying to misdirect.

Since I figure Jordan's "bad luck" post could just as possibly be talking about a vanilla role as a scum role, and because elvis tried to misdirect, I will...

Unvote ~Jordan`, Vote: elvis_knits

Votes EK because she voted Ecto. This is a really sloppy defending his buddy. Throws out a misdirecting accusation, when SL just dropped a bomb, which needs discussion. Voting without building a case is a poor excuse for a vote and not a scumtell. Also backpedals on his Jordan vote, for no reason. Overall, a post worthy of lynching him.

EL, I just iso'ed you, and found out your vote on "King" DDD didn't last long AT ALL. While I don't agree with the case on Danny, I think that if you think he's scummy, you should vote him, and stick with your vote. That is, if you want to play townily =/

FoS: Eldritch Lord

My vote stays.

Scummy post. First off, he is FOS'ing EL (I assume it is because he finds EL suspicious) but at the same time advising him how "to play townily". Contradictory. Second, he is telling EL what he should be doing, while at the same time, finding him suspicious. Third, that "if you want to play townily" bit REALLY seems like he knows EL isn't scum with him.

Also, and probably the most damning point against him, NO SCUMHUNTING! All he has done all game is try and lynch MM.

I know I said I was going to do Ecto too, but Kirbyoshi is scum. Slam dunk.

vote Kirbyoshi

[charter]

I don't think it matters one way or the other, really. I'm Crazy Harry, though.

[charter]

The only thing I saw in terms of Jordan talking about Kirby was "Kirbyoshi seems strange to me" in post 48. Is that what's keeping you from voting Kirby, or am I missing something?

Why do you think Jordan is scum again? I'm pretty sure he isn't scum. Ecto and Kirby look pretty buddybuddy to me. Something I think I missed in my first go I just now noticed, Ecto only votes after EK calls him out for not voting. Could have done it much sooner but didn't. Doesn't seem very town to me.

[charter]

I think it's interesting how easily you condemn ML for what seems like simply guilt by association.

Strengthens that ML is your buddy. What is interesting about it? Do you agree with my assessment or not? I don't like how you throw out your opinion on the subject of ML, but don't explain it at all, and ignore everything else I said in my post. Looks like you're just interested in what I have to say about ML.

Jordan, what exactly do you have against me?

When I saw this question, I saw a banner saying you were scum. You're way too worried about Jordan's vote on you.

Other than, of course, simple, maybe subliminal, OMGUS. If you actually stated your case against me, it would make it much easier for me to explain why you are wrong

Now you're trying to explain away his vote on you. Once again, you're very worried about a vote on you.

66 was not an OMGUS. I didn't vote EK because she voted ecto; I voted EK because she voted ecto for no valid reason. Not voting yet tells caution, not scumminess.

I didn't say 66 was OMGUS, it isn't. I listed why it was scummy. Not voting IS scummy.

As for 154, you hop on the largest wagon, having said nothing about MM up until then, and you don't really say anything about him in that post, though it's designed to look like you find him suspicious. You just say one of his posts is scummy, and then you sit on that vote the rest of the game. You don't actually try and determine his alignment or anything, you're just sitting pretty with your vote on MM.

252 - Name one thing in that post that's not right.

The breakdown.

Most vanilla claims are not believed

Let's see some numbers. I find a lot of vanilla claims ARE believed.

but a vanilla has better chance of surviving a day if he/she claims

No, if someone claims vanilla, they should be lynched. They're either scum or a vanilla, not much better deal than that. I really don't know why MM claimed in this game, I don't see who was going to hammer him. A shame he did.

as refusing to claim is MUCH more scummy than claiming vanilla

I think that not claiming is much, much, MUCH more protown than claiming vanilla. Claiming vanilla serves no point whatsoever. You could still argue your way out of a lynch if you don't claim, but scum wouldn't know not to waste a NK on you.

However, if he were to claim PR as a vanilla, he is only prolonging the inevitable, as he would be NK'ed the night after he van-claimed.

Not really. You don't lie about your role as town because there's a good chance the real powerrole will counter, and the town will proceed to chain lynch them.

I don't have any interest in arguing anything about 252 any more.

[charter]

*Early roleclaiming
*Defending "spamming" behavior
*Early OMGUS
*Voting without reasoning("strange" statement)
*Buddying with Ecto
*Putting me at L-1(another OMGUS)
*Argument that claiming vanilla is scum
*Backtracking

I agree that he's done a bit of these things, I just don't agree that it's scummy of him, it just looks like bad play to me.

You are absolutely right. That is the clearest cut case of buddying that I've ever seen.

vote ecto

It is simply amazing how you built a case on Kirby all by yourself!

WHY ARE YOU VOTING YOURSELF?

I'm not sure lynching MM is a good idea at this point because I don't like the last two votes on him. EL basically votes MM because I criticisized his DDD vote, and to help the town get a claim... not because he thinks MM is scum.

I like some of what charter is saying, except the part that seems to say EL is too scummy to be scum.

99- Wow. I'm not sure if EL is scum anymore. This post is so ridiculously bad, I don't see how he could've possibly expected it to fly.

I like this kirby bandwagon on the one hand, but on the other, I think EL is much scummier, and he has mysteriously disappeared since I started calling him on his scummy moves.

vote Eldritch Lord

Ummmm, why are you only now not liking the last two votes (Jordan and EL) on him? You've posted several times after they cast their votes. You even mentioned before that you thought their votes were fishy, and you want to have a longer day because of it, but you still wanted a MM lynch in that post.

You really haven't called EL out for being scum. Vote for Kirby.

[charter]

Charter, whenever you are ready to defend your assessment on me, I'll be happy to destroy it.

3 of your *points* against me are scum pair speculation based upon the actions of another player, and that was all by page 3.

Appeal to page noted, and ignored. Something scummy on page three is just as lynchworthy as page 30. ML's actions reflect poorly on you, but you're right, it's more of a reason to lynch ML before you.

1 of your points is against the alt's issue, which has already been discussed ad infinitum and criticized by a number of other players already. I see of all the points that could possibly actually be made against me, you chose the easy strawman and

never

actually addressed the case on Monkey, did you?

I never really looked at the case on MM. Cases can be engineered to say anything you want. I looked at the people that voted him, how they went about doing that, and when they did it. Far too many of MM's voters never looked at anyone else, never actually tried to discern his alignment, and voted him very opportunistically. His wagon is HEAVILY scumdriven, at least two scum on it. I don't really care if you can list points against him, I can do it too, doesn't mean he's scum.

Finally, your "Ecto is so scummy" post.

Let's see, MM is at L-2 and very little in other cases has been made aside from Jordan's (who I know is a big nub). L-1 follows

the very next post

.
I suppose you would like to argue that trying to establish where other players stand than on the main case is scummy?

No. Your post looked like distancing. You never explained why you thought Kirby was deserving of a vote, just threw it out there. You've done virtually nothing but try and get MM lynched. I have no idea why you think Kirby is suspicious or why you currently aren't voting him.

What

really

cracks me up is your almost certain move had I agreed to lynch my second target is that you would have switched from an accusation of buddying to one of bussing. Neat trick. Take my 2nd suspect, accuse me of buddying with them, then vote them after I had removed my vote from Monkey and stated that I was awaiting other assessments before making a decision, when it is almost certainly obvious that Kirby is my man on deck.

You can throw out all your baseless speculation you want, I'm sure no one is buying it.

Oh, by the way, the

only

time you can vote when someone calls you out on not voting is

after

they said it. So your argument is bunk trash. The only thing you could say there is that by that point in the game I should have placed a vote and not doing so is scummy.
Except I shouldn't and it isn't.

unvote[/i]

Yes, but the way you did it was scummy. You did it because you were pressured to vote, not because you were ready to. You could have said "I'm not ready to vote" or something, and continued not voting, but your next post you voted, so yes, you only did it to get Elvis off your back.

[charter]

You're not making much sense here. First I'm "only now not liking the last two votes," then you say how you do know that I "even mentioned before that I thought their votes were fishy." I mentioned it before, hence, it is not the first time I said I don't like the votes. And the continued absence of EL has made me feel he's a much better place to put my vote.

Well, you only now voted someone else. Before you said you didn't like the last two votes, but it seemed as if you still wanted MM lynched and you kept your vote on him. I think it's odd that it took you so long to decide to vote someone else. I really don't see why this change happened so long after the last two votes on him.

@charter: I'm not generally one to bite the hand that feeds me, but first you say I'm obvtown, and then you say all vanilla claims should be lynched. Which is it?

Vanilla's should be lynched. They're either scum or vanilla, neither is a big loss for the town. Claiming vanilla should never save you from a lynch. You claim has nothing to do with why I'm trying to get someone else lynched, I'd be doing it if you didn't claim (which you shouldn't have done, no one was threatening to hammer). I'm doing it because it's really obvious you're not scum, and there's no need to lynch you.

Kirbyoshi gets -1 points for failing to use any of the phrases "blatant(ly)", "ham-handed", "brazen", or "unabashedly" in his post.

Since DDD refuses to answer his accusations, and he was over-promoting himself early as obvtown, I'm inclined to,

Unvote:
Vote: Debonair Danny DiPietro

Ok, you're going to have to start trying to help yourself. I'm done defending you now, if you keep doing stuff like this, you'll probably get yourself to L-1 again. Kirby's vote is scummy too, and I'm now REALLY sure he's scum. He dismisses everything I've said with "Most of charter's case against me is bullcrap" but of course doesn't explain why or anything. He also jumps on to DDD, which I guess is the next easy target for Kirbyscum to vote.

MM, you are obvtown because your wagon was obvscumdriven. It really has nothing to do with your play, which has not been stellar.

At first I was just gracious not to be on L-1 anymore, but looking at things a bit more objectively it looks a bit odd.

Are you even thinking? If I was scum, I would just post 'claimed vanilla, hammer' and proceed to night. Unless of course you're trying to argue that you are scum and I am scummy for calling you town. This seems very disingenuous to argue against preventing your own lynch.

[charter]

Your play HAS been bad. You got yourself run up to L-1 with it. It wasn't because people thought you were town, I can tell you that much. Like I said, the only reason I don't want to lynch you is becasue I'm pretty sure you're not scum. Can you show me evidence of how you were planning on not being lynched before I replaced in? No.. Your arguments weren't working, like you said.

[charter]

Your play HAS been bad. You got yourself run up to L-1 with it. It wasn't because people thought you were town, I can tell you that much.

Holy contradiction Batman! I thought his wagon was scum driven? Now it was town driven?

Holy twisting things batman! There were obviously townies voting for him that didn't think he was town. Kind of funny that you're arguing that you're scum though.

[charter]

Ecto, why did you unvote MM? Why aren't you voting right now?

[charter]

I enjoy the fact that never once did I come up in the Charter Inquisition. I don't really know how to take that...

Also, Charter: Why do you not think DDD is scum? Or at least very scummy?

You didn't stand out very much in my read (which is good, I normally just note scummy things). Right now, I'm leaning town on you. I went and checked, and I see you're voting Ectomancer, so townpoints for that, but it also seems like you have been doing this all game. Why have you only voted Ectomancer?

I don't think DDD is scum because the only questionable thing he's done is vote MM.

[charter]

I don't see how you can accuse DDD of not doing anything when no one has questioned him really. I guess the putting MM at L-1 is a fair point, but I don't think DDD is scum. I missed that Snix voted DDD, my bad.

[charter]

@mod: Please don't tell us if there is a PGO, but if there is, would a mafia target be a mutual kill?

This is a no-bones, 100% anti-town question to ask. I don't see a single way this helps the town, and if answered, clearly helps scum.

Unvote. Vote: Kirby.

We got one scum bussing Kirby, now we just need the other one! In all seriousness, Kirby is scum, and your point is another good one against him.

Ecto, I hate to break it to you, but your plan is a POOR idea. Sacrificing another townie to confirm me is dumb. Their power is almost certainly better than mine, so it's a really poor trade. I've been in games with PGO (and been one before), and the only difference is, you get lynched if you're scummy (not really a difference at all). You just don't get targeted at night. You should just wait until tonight and see if anyone is dumb enough to try it, and then reassess tomorrow.

[charter]

Request Prod/Replacement of springlulliby

[charter]

Elvis, what do you think of post 330? Why make no comment on it?

It's very unsettling how you claim to be suspicious of Kirby, but don't really seem to be.

[charter]

I don't want to argue against myself, but I don't think that's a good idea. Besides all the not having a clue what her role is, it seems really easy for the mafia to frame anyone if they have a roleblocker and we plan these things out.

I wouldn't worry about it too much on day one, I've seen scum target a claimed PGO before, so we can always hope.

[charter]

Elvis, what do you think of post 330? Why make no comment on it?

It's very unsettling how you claim to be suspicious of Kirby, but don't really seem to be.

I almost did vote kirby after 330, but I thought it would dilute my case on EL. Do you think EL is scum?

I will take another look, I know he definately had a bunch of highly questionable actions when I read through, but I didn't conclude that he was scum. I can tell you (with almost 100% certainty) that I will not be voting EL after this, barring some scumslip, since I am really sure that Kirby is scum.

[charter]

I reread EL, I found a lot of questionable things, such as his unvote of MM to vote DDD and his revote of MM was especially bad, but I dunno. Just nowhere near as scummy as Kirby.

[charter]

He's fishing to see if scum will die if they target me. Everyone not knowing this is about all that makes a PGO useful. I really don't see why that question would enter into a townie's head, but as ekiM said, it's something scum would badly want to know.

[charter]

Also, wondering when I ever softclaimed.

This shouldn't be answered, since if scum haven't figured it out, telling them is dumb.

[charter]

Why are you pushing this? Anyone answering it is just helping scum. I'm not clarifying, and I suggest no one else does.

I believe Kirby is L-1
charter, Debonair Danny DiPietro, MacavityLock, Eldritch Lord, Jordan, MonkeyMan576 - which is six

The only reason I'd not want Kirby dead in the next post is to make springlulliby post a ton or a replacement to do it. Honestly, I really don't want to wait around a week for that, so yeah, it'd be awesome if he gets hammered in the next post.

[charter]

He's fishing to see if scum will die if they target me.

Ok, I knew there was some sort of misunderstanding about that. I'm wondering whether

you

will die from a scum target, not if they will. I know they will.

That's fine, that's scummy too. You're seeing if it's worth it for your buddies to kill me, to see if I'll actually die.

[charter]

Stop spamming the thread with inane and unproductive argument. Pages 10 and this last one are totally useless.

QFT

I'm willing to hammer.

What's the hold up?

[charter]

I didn't want to hear a claim, wasn't going to change my mind.

[charter]

Does anyone know what a janitor does?

[charter]

Hmmm, the wiki says this

The Janitor is an anti-Town role who 'cleans up the body' after a kill, preventing the town from knowing the killed player's role and alignment at daybreak.

This can't be what we're dealing with though. Has anyone heard of any other roles that were called 'janitor'?

[charter]

vote Elvis

Number of times ML mentioned Elvis the entire game - 0
Number of times Elvis mentioned ML the entire game - 1

It was in post 193, of which I agreed with about none of, and she just mentions him in passing.

MM, please look at how ML responded to my claim. Also note that "starting the Kirby wagon" is not a scumtell. And please tell me why I shouldn't say I don't think DDD is town, since he's given me no reason to think otherwise. Finally, please tell me why you are voting me.

[charter]

Well, I'm not called a paranoid gun owner in my role pm, but I kill people that target me at night, so I made the connection. And yeah, if you look at Crazy Harry, he quite clearly uses bombs and stuff.

TRY AGAIN ECTO.

[charter]

MonkeyMan576:

MM, please look at how ML responded to my claim. Also note that "starting the Kirby wagon" is not a scumtell. And please tell me why I shouldn't say I don't think DDD is town, since he's given me no reason to think otherwise. Finally, please tell me why you are voting me.

[charter]

MonkeyMan576:

MM, please look at how ML responded to my claim. Also note that "starting the Kirby wagon" is not a scumtell. And please tell me why I shouldn't say I don't think DDD is town, since he's given me no reason to think otherwise. Finally, please tell me why you are voting me.

Leading a wagon against a townie is a scumtell. You don't think voting records should be used in casebuildling? If you think DDD is town, and several players think he is scummy, maybe you should rethink your position. And I've already stated why I am voting for you, if you read my post.

Ok, I give up. This is so assbackwards, I don't know what to do. First off, you tell me why ML reacted the way he did to my claim, and why that makes me scum.

Leading a wagon against a townie is not a scumtell. I was scumhunting, I thought Kirby was scum, and I did my best to show that to others. If you disagreed with it so much as to find it suspicious, then you needed to say that yesterday, but YOU AGREED WITH ME. You FOS'ed him in your first post after I replaced. How can you fault me because the degree I found him suspicious was greater than the degree you did? MAKES NO SENSE. I just got to page 357 and YOU VOTED HIM! How can you say I'm scummy for voting him when you voted him yourself? Because I voted him first and stopped your wagon? It seems like you're arguing that I'm scum since I started the Kirby wagon instead of hammering you, it doesn't make any sense to me. By that logic, I had to start a wagon on scum in order for me to be town, on day one with no info or flips, or should I have just hammered you? I really don't know what you expected me to do there. What 'should' I have done when I replaced in, in your opinion?

Voting records SHOULD be used in casebuilding, but that's not what you're doing. My voting record was "vote Kirby". You should be looking for people that were voting you when it was popular, then switched on to Kirby, or something like that. Townies vote for townies, it happens. If the logic someone is using to vote is sound, then it isn't a scumtell. If someone is just opportunistically voting, that IS suspicious. (I'll deal with 'oh but DDD is doing this' later)

You voted me for defending DDD and starting the Kirby wagon. I've already covered why I started the Kirby wagon and why that isn't suspicious. As for why I'm defending DDD, it's because his play here is pretty much a clone of Stratego mafia (it's ongoing, so I won't say more, but he's already dead). I really can't give any more than that, other than I do not find his play suspicious. It's very bold and aggressive. He whooped me as scum once, and he was very cautious and left all his options open, at all times. He's definitely not doing that here. So that's why I don't have a scumread on DDD, meta. I suppose you can use 'charter defended DDD' as a reason to vote me, but why wouldn't you use 'ML defended Ecto', because ML IS scum? (I'm not saying do that either, since I'm way less sure, but you get the point) It seems very presumptuous to vote me because I defended DDD when you don't know DDD's alignment. DDD could be town and I'd be right to defend him.

What I do not understand, is why you are completely ignoring the fact that we have one scum dead. Why?

[charter]

Questions you ignored that you need to answer.

How can you fault me because the degree I found him suspicious was greater than the degree you did?

By that logic, I had to start a wagon on scum in order for me to be town, on day one with no info or flips, or should I have just hammered you?

What 'should' I have done when I replaced in, in your opinion?

I'm not ignoring the dead scum. But we don't know what caused that death, and we do know what caused the townie death.

What does it matter what caused his death? He had interactions with scumbuddies yesterday, you're ignoring all of ML's play.

You're using mostly meta as your argument, and I don't really like that strategy. It can be used to defend or attack anyone, regardless of their true alignment. Meta is a pretty weak analysis compared to other in game tools.

Strongly disagree, but no point in arguing this in the thread.

Interesting post Charter, I still want a complete read on DDD, go in depth with this meta reasoning you have.

I already explained it and gave you my opinion on him, it didn't change, I don't think he's scum.

[charter]

Oh, if you want me to explain why I don't think DDD is scum, I'm not going to do that. He's responsible for defending himself. If, once he's done that, and I strongly feel he's town, I might say something.

[charter]

MM, also, please explain this:

you tell me why ML reacted the way he did to my claim, and why that makes me scum.

[charter]

ML wasn't really on my radar. I don't see what is scummy about that. I could do a comparison about how many times I mentioned other people and how many times I they mention me. I don't see what a comparison like that proves. Actually, the last person who used that type of comparison on me was DGB in Invitational 10 and she was scum trying to railroad me.

That's unfortunate. ML was scum, so it seems he should have been on your radar.

Also, as for 193 and you not agreeing with it... when you replaced in you had a number of things you said that were factually incorrect, as in either you weren't reading very closely at all, or were trying to twist things. So you not agreeing with my reread is really a point in my favor.

Oh really? You said you liked what I said. Why would you agree with it if it was factually incorrect or I was twisting things? This is what you said:

I like some of what charter is saying, except the part that seems to say EL is too scummy to be scum.

Can't keep the story straight, eh?

[charter]

MM, also, please explain this:

you tell me why ML reacted the way he did to my claim, and why that makes me scum.

I'm not sure which reaction you're referring to...

This, MM.

For everyone, a question about charter's claim. I've never played with a Paranoid Gun Owner before, and as far as I can tell it's a pretty uncommon role. It's going to prevent cops/trackers from targeting him, so this seems like it would make for a pretty amazing fakeclaim. Is it common strategy for a PGO to claim on first post (essentially)? Possibilities that this is a really great fakeclaim? I have no idea, so other opinions/other games/discussions anyone could point me to would be helpful.

ALSO, PLEASE ANSWER THE QUESTIONS IN POST 433.

[charter]

MonkeyMan576, PLEASE ANSWER THE QUESTIONS IN POST 433.

[charter]

Charter, I was thinking of this, where I pointed out how you were not making sense and missing things. I think other people pointed out other things you got wrong, but this was just what I said.

No, you said, right after I replaced in, that you liked with what I posted. NO ONE had said any of it was wrong or anything at that point (the only thing was Kirby, but that was mostly asking for elaboration). If it's factually incorrect and I'm twisting things now, why didn't you point it out at that point, instead of liking what I said?

[charter]

MONKEYMAN, THESE QUESTIONS PLEASE:

Questions you ignored that you need to answer.

How can you fault me because the degree I found him suspicious was greater than the degree you did?

By that logic, I had to start a wagon on scum in order for me to be town, on day one with no info or flips, or should I have just hammered you?

What 'should' I have done when I replaced in, in your opinion?

Last time I'm going to ask.

[charter]

Well, looks like I can't nail you to a cross due to a technicality (not talking about my catch up post), but I'm still really sure you're scum.

I've already explained the first one, the second, I'm pretty sure I had mentioned I thought all three of them were scum by like post 100 or something, third one I already explained as well. Still think you're really reaching here and are scum.

[charter]

Well, looks like I can't nail you to a cross due to a technicality (not talking about my catch up post), but I'm still really sure you're scum.

You mean like you were really sure of Kirbyoshi?

Yep. Now it's easier though since ML is dead. What do you think of Elvis? You haven't said squat today other than you think I'm scum (which I still think makes zero sense from your point of view, but whatever, your vote won't lynch me, it's just not helping to lynch scum).

And what is your reasoning? Some imaginary connection between ML and myself? I already posted how that makes no sense.

You compared it to a game that DGB was in. That's a really poor defense. I have other reasons I'm suspicious of you, but I've learned if I post all these little things I see, it muddles my case and no one listens.

[charter]

Oh, well I think it's suspicious that you and him had zero interactions. You barely mentioned him in your giant catch up post, it didn't say anything about him. I think that scum try to avoid their buddies if they can avoid it, I know I do when I'm scum. Since ML was scum, and he never mentioned you, and you pretty much didn't, it seems like you two were trying to not draw any attention to each other.

[charter]

Damn, I thought it was Snix that was cop, that's why I followed the EK vote.

unvote, vote DDD

[charter]

unvote

[charter]

While I'm certainly going to vote for DDD, his response, in my mind, cements that he is scum. No claim of his role or nothing, no vote for EL. Not good.

[charter]

I really don't care if it's a fakeclaim and we lynch DDD. If it's true, then EL is scum and he dies. This is too ridiculous to make up if EL isn't telling the truth.

[charter]

Heh, so now we should discuss who his partner is. Let me see if Elvis fits.

[charter]

@charter: You really think if there are other cops out there, they should claim, given that there may be multiple sanities? Sounds like rolefishing to me.

...I didn't say this. You're seriously suffering from an extreme case of confirmation bias here (though I do that too from time to time...).

As for Danny's claim of why EL is doing this, I don't think that's the case at all. EL's claim is EXACTLY congruent with a cop getting a guilty last night. Insane cops aren't very common in anything.

[charter]

And Danny still didn't claim his role, which makes him look pretty bad.

[charter]

You STILL haven't claimed your role, and I really can't think of a role I'd rather keep alive above a cop, so yeah... Not gonna fly getting him lynched first.

[charter]

Well, stalling on claiming is about the biggest scumtell on earth, so

vote DDD

[charter]

Well, there's no way that we're not lynching you or EL today. EL has already claimed, and it's a really good one that's going to end up in your lynch, so unless you claim something even better, there's no reason we wouldn't lynch you. There's no case that needs defending against from anyone, just EL's claim, and I see a whole lot to gain and little to lose by lynching you first.

Waiting to claim just gives you time to invent a better one. Townies rarely stall in claiming, but I see scum do it often.

[charter]

At least the name of your Muppet.

Role too.

[charter]

Who would you say is the last scum (assuming DDD flips scum)?

I think it's Elvis, she's been pretty lenient on DDD and attacking EL, who has been attacking DDD.

[charter]

That being said since I've been harassed by nearly everyone at this point if somebody votes (and maintains it for at least a little while) for EL and you'll get a full claim in my next post after that.

Yeah, this deal reeks of scum.

[charter]

I'm just going to assume the rest of town is smart enough to lynch you DDD and you'll flip scum. Given this:

This game may have a PGO, but DDD defends charter's PGO claim which makes me think charter might be an unblockable killer trying to save his position -- still charter hasn't been very off-base so far with his reasoning, even if he did start a mislynch.

I have a question for the town, what if I assume there is a godfather or otherwise unblockable kill, then I'm done for tonight more than likely.

I could investigate charter, if I, too, explode in a similar fashion then you could consider charter's claim viable. This would be a situation of whose action comes first, the NK or the Investigation.

Or I could just investigate Elvis and hope I don't die but some god-given miracle in the night.

If you could show a huge leap of faith and investigate ekim or ecto, that would be best. You guys can lynch me tomorrow if you do it (if you think I'm scum trying to trick you), assuming you don't get a guilty on one of them. There's a part of my role I've withheld, and I'd really prefer it if you didn't get killed by investigating me, and I think it's better to not investigate elvis, since she's likely going down anyway I think it'd be a much better way of trying to save her by confirming someone else as scum, rather than confirming her as innocent. Plus, if there is a GF, an innocent on her won't mean a whole lot.

[charter]

@charter: Directing night actions is incredibly scummy, you've already shoved the town enough as it is...

First off, he's asking the town about what to do. Second, I am trying to help, but people need to believe, I'll fullclaim tomorrow, and like I said, lynch me if you think it makes me scum.

It doesn't have to be ecto or ekim, but it SHOULD not be elvis or myself. I just think that if elvis isn't scum, one of those two is most likely to be scum.

[charter]

Millers are sketchy enough, not being told they're millers is really bastardly, and pretty sure we're not dealing with that.

However, watchers are a horrible role to actually be included in a game. Two investigative roles is meh, but EL's claim is way more solid than DDDs.

[charter]

Well, that's all I wanted for tonight.

I personally will not lynch DDD as he could have claimed miller outright, but only hinted at it (he even goes so far as to say he doesn't believe he is). Plus, if EL is Sam the Eagle it is more likely than not that he is not completely sane.

I still do not like Elvis and will hopefully get around to fleshing out my case more tomorrow.

Vote: Elvis

You've got to be kidding. He's softclaiming miller, after he's had a guilty on him, and you're believing it?!?!? I don't know what to say.

[charter]

@charter: Directing night actions is incredibly scummy, you've already shoved the town enough as it is...

First off, he's asking the town about what to do. Second, I am trying to help, but people need to believe, I'll fullclaim tomorrow, and like I said, lynch me if you think it makes me scum.

It doesn't have to be ecto or ekim, but it SHOULD not be elvis or myself. I just think that if elvis isn't scum, one of those two is most likely to be scum.

I thought acting anti-town made you scummy today, why would I think differently tomorrow. If it were me I absolutely not listen to charter's "advice".

Well, I'll just say this. If DDD flips scum, I pray EL listens and gives me one night. If DDD flips town, I don't think it's going to matter. I'm even saying lynch me tomorrow if you think I'm scum, just don't get yourself killed tonight to do it.

[charter]

I support a hammer.

[charter]

Ugh, whatever, I'll just do this today instead of tomorrow. I'm not a PGO, I'm a compulsive vig. I killed ML last night.

[charter]

So you can investigate me, and you'll get an innocent, or you can investigate ekim or ecto, and possibly get a guilty, and don't bother wasting an investigation on elvis.

[charter]

Lulz. Ok, MacavityLock's buddy. Maybe I just kill you tonight, Elvis can probably get herself lynched anyway. I will have to think about this.

[charter]

I'd also like to point out, if I was a SK or any kind of anti town role, I'd just go ahead and let EL investigate me, and then go ahead and kill him and "confirm" myself.

Still going to kill elvis, so don't investigate her.

[charter]

DDD was hammered. I wouldn't be telling the TRUTH if it wasn't twilight.

I will hopefully just vig right tonight and end the game and not have to deal with people that are getting all caught up in whatever and not listening to COMMON SENSE.

[charter]

There's nine people alive, so five is a majority.

[charter]

Why would you think he is telling the truth? He takes ages to claim, then throws in this bit about being a miller. Claims watcher which is about the only possible role that would trump a cop. How can he be a miller and a watcher?

What we really should be doing, is figuring out who the third member of the scumteam is.

[charter]

Go team! I was super-excited about this game right up until charter killed me. charter, I really thought that all your tells on me were predicated on kirby-scum. Why'd you vig me?

Anyway, great play by ekiM and EK. Glad to have been a even a short time member of the team.

I thought you were scumbag numero uno. After you voted Kirby, then said nothing else, and he flipped town, there was about zero doubt in my mind you were scum. I went after Kirby because I thought he was scum too, he was just the easiest to lynch. I just couldn't put together any form of case on you, and quickly realized I didn't need bother, just vig you.

Pretty pissed at myself for my play this game. I was really, really sure we would have this game done by day three when I replaced in. That's why I claimed PGO, one of the best town power roles there is is vig, and I didn't want getting touched. That was dumb of me, not going to do that again. Pretty sure we would have won as well had we lynched EK day two.

Also pissed at myself for going way overboard on the DDD lynch. That was dumb. Pissed that I gave up on my town read of DDD so easily as well. We shouldn't have lynched either of EL or DDD and given them another night to prove themselves (and in EL's case find out he is paranoid). Should have just lynched EK like planned. After DDD flipped town, I contemplated vigging EK anyway but then I wasn't going to let EL live and pull the "I must be paranoid" day three, which as it happens, was the truth.

MonkeyMan, I have absolutely no idea what you were doing this game. You were scummy as hell day one, then you start attacking me because I stopped you from getting lynched? Why?

Ecto, I very nearly vigged you night one for the sole reason of I didn't want to argue with you or read anything you wrote.

Both of you, why on earth did you want the cop to investigate me? And then when I come clean IMMEDIATELY assume I was SK? Seriously, I would have gone along with that, then killed the cop and confirm myself. Ugh. Obviously I was then telling the truth about being a vig.

Good work ekim, I had you as lurkerscum when I was discussing with DDD after we were both dead. Was all over EK, but then the EL fiasco prevailed.

I think spring had the right idea. Make a mysterious claim, then get NK'ed. The lurking probably helped with that.

I didn't really read after I died, so no comments on that.

Zorblag, good work modding. Setup was pretty cool, I don't have any complaints about it. No idea what the janitor did, but meh, it's a theme game.

[charter]

And good job scum!

[charter]

Flat out, it was the worst play as vigiliante I've seen. All he did was confirm himself as an SK.

Yeah, pretty sure you're wrong here. Would have vigged two scum easily if we didn't have a paranoid cop claim. Glad that you caught a whopping zero scumbags, great job!

[charter]

Also, good modding, and thanks Zorblag! Loved the theme, and I don't think I've enjoyed a PM more than Floyd Pepper's excited face staring back at me.

Those pictures were pretty sweet.

[charter]

You're so funny Ecto.

[charter]

Any chance of a quicktopic?

[charter]

Monkeyman, I'm really not interested in who you blame. I want to know why you started accusing me of being scum when I stopped your lynch, since I defend people I think are town all the time, and I can't recall them ever accusing me of being scum for doing it. I want to know so that when I do this in future, I avoid bringing unnecessary suspicion upon myself.

In case you missed it, me claiming PGO made me not get killed night one, and then coming clean made me get killed night two. Hardly the apocalypse you make it out to be.


I agree ekim, the length of it was nice. It's nice when people don't think they have to use every single day before deadline.