/in-Vitational Game 4 (Game Over!)

[VP Baltar]

Vote: Pooky

[mith]

Vote Count:

3 to lynch.

PookyTheMagicalBear: 1 (VP Baltar)

Not Voting: 3 (charter, elvis_knits, PookyTheMagicalBear)

[charter]

Oh Snap! We got ourselves a game now. Pooky, what do you have to say about this?

[charter]

I think the fact that nearly the entirity of the wagon took place over a page when none of the known scum had even posted has to be taken into account. Like I said before, I can't really fault anyone for finding me scummy because of that (and my somewhat shitty play up to that point), because I know I certainly would if I didn't know my alignment, but it also wasn't your average wagon either.

Contrast that with the Pooky wagon which had a slower build and many benefits to a scum team built like a shaky house of cards, and then ask yourself which situation does it seem more likely for scum to quick hammer in.

This doesn't make you look very good though. You managed to get most of the town voting you. I didn't buy in to the reasoning at the time. Instead, I started up a Xyl wagon, which blossomed due to having all the scum on it. This makes you look 100 times more suspicious because scum had a nice big juicy wagon on you, and then proceeded to ignore you then lynch the hell out of Xyl. It almost seems like they wanted to keep you alive. Since that wagon, you've come under virtually no scrutiny.

I am definitely not voting until after rereading the game.

[VP Baltar]

I think the fact that nearly the entirity of the wagon took place over a page when none of the known scum had even posted has to be taken into account. Like I said before, I can't really fault anyone for finding me scummy because of that (and my somewhat shitty play up to that point), because I know I certainly would if I didn't know my alignment, but it also wasn't your average wagon either.

Contrast that with the Pooky wagon which had a slower build and many benefits to a scum team built like a shaky house of cards, and then ask yourself which situation does it seem more likely for scum to quick hammer in.

This doesn't make you look very good though. You managed to get most of the town voting you. I didn't buy in to the reasoning at the time. Instead, I started up a Xyl wagon, which blossomed due to having all the scum on it. This makes you look 100 times more suspicious because scum had a nice big juicy wagon on you, and then proceeded to ignore you then lynch the hell out of Xyl. It almost seems like they wanted to keep you alive. Since that wagon, you've come under virtually no scrutiny.

I am definitely not voting until after rereading the game.

And that's fine. I can't really dispute that fact because it's there and I would be suspicious of it as well. I've already given my thoughts on perhaps why it would have happened that way, but that is nothing more than speculation of course.

[elvis_knits]

Wait I'm confused what happens with charter tree stumping. Will that lower the lynch number? How does that work?

[VP Baltar]

Hmm, that's good point EK. I've never played with a treestump before. Do they still get a vote after stumping?

[charter]

Pretty scummy question EK. Whole reason I haven't stumped yet was to try and catch scum quickhammering. Quickhammering is really the only reason I can think why you would want to know. Or did you have something else in mind?

[elvis_knits]

I was asking because you said something about you voting and I assumed that you wouldn't be voting since you'd be stumping. Unless you have no intention of stumping or can't stump.

I don't really think you're scum though, but I was just wondering why you would talk about voting.

Or do you still have a vote after stumping?

As to catching a quickhammer... not sure how you'd to that. Not sure why scum would need to do that anyway in this case.

[charter]

Say if you were scum, and you forgot I was still alive, and you posted "bwahahaha, hammer". Jig is up, but no one gets lynched.

Good point about me talking about voting. Had actually forgotten that I can't vote. Makes me look pretty hypocritical but I was thinking I was pretty clever trying to catch a quickhammer.

But your question isn't scummy. Forgot that I'm not voting haha. Was too caught up in my plan.

[elvis_knits]

Well I guess that would have been good if someone thought they were laying down a scum hammer and they weren't. But the vote count says 3 to lynch now, so (pooky) would have to not realize that. I guess it's possible, though it would have to be a careless mistake.

[charter]

It seemed like a much better idea in my head.

[elvis_knits]

No, it could have worked. Although I forced you to talk about it so now it won't.


Unless pooky isn't reading the thread at all and doesn't notice this convo. Which, honestly, is a possibility.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

lol

i read every convo on this thread

i just dont talk much

which right now is more because i'm sick than anything else. I'll try to put together a post when I'm not feeling so drowsy.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I am feeling much better today, though still sick a bit, incoming posts soon on why Baltar is definitely scumbaggo

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Scum Strategy in games like this is pretty simple, at the beginning of Day 2, the scum controlled 5 out of 15 roles, a solid 1/3 of the town voting block. They needed to snow only 3 town voters into their group to get a lynch off on someone on the town side, which they did manage to do, getting a lynch on Xyl with all 5 scumbags voting him. A concentration of scumbags on one single wagon over another wagon in a day like this is risky, and something that you don't do unless you need to bail out one of your teammates, and that teammate was VP Baltar, who had been run up hard during that day, with what we now know was a fully town wagon on him.

On day 3, the scum lead was even stronger, with a full 5 scum votes still rocking and on the cusp of getting to lynch or lose, at that point they could've made a serious wagon on any player in the game, if they aren't worried about piling onto one player on day 2, why would they be afraid day 3? To say that they were forced into piling on to me is incredibly silly, the scum could've made a push for anyone in the game, and they did it on the seemingly weakest and most vulnerable town player in the game, me. There is no point for the scum to make a push on a fellow scumbag that close to Lynch or Lose when they have shown themselves to be brazen enough to all pile onto one townie to get them lynched as early as day 2.

These aren't scum who want to play patsy or cutesy with us, these scum want to win, they went for our throats on day 2, except on day 3, VP Baltar made either a mistake or a calculated gamble. His argument that if he was scum he would've voted for me is a bad one because lynching me DOES NOT give the scum a guranteed win, but if he survives endgame by using THAT argument, it DOES give the scum a win. I'm almost certain that Baltar set himself up as the not likely to be scum player by voting with us, he got scared of the heat and decided to try to blend in with the town.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I broke down each of the 4 scumbag's play in concern specifically to VP Baltar, the following are quotes each scumplayer has made with regards to VP Baltar.

Yos on VP Baltar:

“Nope. VP is defiantly one of the people I could see lynching today. He wouldn't be my first choice because there are other people I'm more convinced are scum, but he'd be a reasonable lynch.”

The sort of non-commital stuff a scumbag will say about another scumbag, a sort of dodge out of voting him while maintaining he’d be a good lynch.


“I thought VP Baltar was scummy yesterday, but I'm really uncomfortable with the line of reasoning people are using. They're basically one of the below:

1. "There are two people who were attacking him yesterday who we now know are pro-town!" Translation: the scum killed someone last night who was attacking VP Balter yesterday, except no one seems to want to put it that way, I guess because if they did then it would be obvious that it was a weak WIFOM argument.

2. "A goon cop was voting him!" Do you really think she had a guilty on him? It seems pretty clear to me that she didn't, reading her posts. She didn't "waffle" on her initial vote, she came out hard against eikM and stayed there for a long time.

That being said, I'm really not happy with VP's level of contribution this game; he hasn't been lurking, but he hasn't really been scumhunting much either. VP, who do you think is scum, and why?”

Again, a passive-aggressive defense, it attacks people who are attacking VP Baltar without actually defending VP Baltar, it instead distances by putting the heat on Baltar while prodding him to make some scumhunting talk.

Zu_faul on VP Baltar:

“VP Baltar's wagon grew way too fast to not suspect some baleful influence (well, this is somewhat regardless of his alignment - scum would want to be on that wagon either way). The way he attacks ekiM somewhat clears VP for me (a bit like with serialclergyman). His somewhat random attacks on me don't look too much like scum either.”

Same type of passive-aggressive crap Yos did, he doesn’t come down hard either way about Baltar’s alignment but DOES spray suspicion all over those who voted for Baltar. He then goes on to use baltar’s actions to say he doesn’t look like scum without any justification.

“That said, I could settle for a Baltar lynch. The Xyl lynch looks more tasty right now.
I am going to bed now, we'll see if the new day brings a new wagon, a lynch already, or *gosh* maybe even a claim. If it brings none of these, I guess I'll hammer.”

Zu_faul now shifts away from the slightly leaning defensive on baltar to “fencesitting on Baltar/Xyl but he lands on the Xyl side, with no real reasoning. It’s pretty clear it’s not just a coincidence he landed with all of his scumbuddies on one side of the Xyl/Baltar fence.

“I got a feeling Baltar is not the way to go. I doubt he was investigated by Ojanen. She did not even mention him until others voiced their suspicions of him.”

More zero-logic defense of Baltar from his scumbuddy

Tajo on VP Baltar

“VP Baltar - solid points overall but something of his tone doesnt sit well with me, will need to iso him.”

Noncommittal BS read, something you make up cuz you don’t want to say anything one way or the other.

“Im still meh about Yos but I dont recall any single town feeling in all the game from faul and vp.”

“Liking the Ojanen baltar case. Ojanen points are strong and baltars responses (to iam also) are lacking. Disliking Baltar more and more as he answers. (I totally dislike excuses as I need sleep, my memory doesnt work) If fast, the wagon feels decent except for thesp and xyl. Fishy L-1.”

So he likes the case, he thinks baltar is scummy scummy scum, but he ends up voting for xyl instead of baltar because baltar is his scumbuddy. In fact, if you read his next few posts, he instead votes for Xyl because Xyl walks off the Baltar wagon to the Yos wagon because Xyl thinks Yos is scum with Baltar. In fact, if you look at Tajo’s post number 21-24, you’d see he basically just walks away from the Baltar case he initially supported onto Xyl with complete crap reasoning.

“Third, the Baltar wagon has its merits but I think people are suspecting Baltar for the wrong reasons which makes me want to reread him, the case against him and decide the fate of this avenue. This day, some of the points against him are weak. For example, the impression I got from yesterday was that the Xyl wagon was not produced by a baltar wagon derailment. Xyl himself was the one who deactivated the wagon by a)trying to switch it to Yos and b)looking super scummy. Serial argument considering Xyltown must mean Baltarscum is something I also dislike.”

Again, the same passive-aggressive defense of Baltar from another of his scumbuddies, Tajo casts suspicion on those who suspect Baltar for “the wrong reasons” and weak points. He also goes on to say the Xyl Wagon was NOT produced by a Baltar wagon derailment, which clearly IS the case since ALL FIVE SCUMBAGS JUMPED ON THE XYL WAGON TO DERAIL BALTARWAGON. His argument that Xyl derailed the Baltar wagon is absolutely terrible considering Xyl was trying to go after another scumbag in Yos.

Roflcopter on Baltar:

“i really don't like the baltar wagon. serialclergyman had a serious case of having his cake and eating it too in posts 772-773. joining the baltar wagon, and the turning around and slinging mud at ekim for joining the baltar wagon? i don't think there's a more obvious way to admit that you know the wagon you're on is bullshit.”

“i don't think there's any chance that ojanen investigated baltar”

“i don't like the return to the vp baltar wagon. i think he's telling the truth about his role.”

“
people who are town
yos
baltar
elvis
charter”

“anyway, i'm a vanilla cop. vanillas: yos, baltar”

Again, a 0 logic defense of baltar followed up by a cop-claim with innocent result on Baltar.



All of the 4 scumbags defended or skirted around the Baltar issue, some of them quite brazenly. It's pretty obvious imo that these were all cases of Scumbags protecting their Godfather.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Lastly, in an endgame scenario as its presented here, there are only two sensible plays to make as a town, either

A) No Lynch due to an even number of players alive with no claimed nightkill/protection roles

or

B) Charter Stumps to prove innocence followed by a lynch.

In no case should a TOWN player have just moved into a vote situation because it opens the game up to possibly another town player jumping on and then charterscum jumping on to avoid.

VP Baltar didn't even consider this. He's not town

[VP Baltar]

Here's the very succinct issues with your large posts, Pooky.

1) It fails to explain why the known scum not on your L-1 wagon would not hammer you when it was very ripe for that. Hammering on that wagon would have looked 100 times less suspicious than hammering me after a one page wagon when the flip occured.

2) All of the quotes you (selectively) pull from the scumbags are from when my wagon was already on the downhill slide. Also, see the above point.

3) Charter isn't scum, so your third post is plain illogical.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

1) that's pretty simple, i didn't have the chance to claim yet, and there's no reason to look suspicious hammering out of turn when there's still one more day to play. they probly thought it'd be pretty easy to lynch me considering how the day was going.

hammering quickly on a 6 person wagon is always going to look scummy, that's why they didn't do it. My points are not about them NOTHAMMERING, its about their ACTIONS AGAINST each of us.

in your case, all 4 scumbags walked onto a xyl wagon while making Bullshit statements about YOUR alignment, effectively derailing your wagon while lynching an innocent Xyl.

In my case, all 4 scumbags eventually ended up voting me while saying that I was likely scum. Pretty obvious that means I'm innocent and you're scum.


2) All of those quotes are comments made by the scumbags on a variety of times, not all during your downhill slide, a slide that was by the way, very driven by the scumbags.

3) The only person that KNOWS charter is not a scumbag is either charter or a scumbag. A town Baltar would not know for certain that baltar is scum, in fact a town baltar loses nothing from having Charter stump just to be sure as a mislynch at 4 alive will make us lose just as much as a mislynch at 3 alive. The fact that you didn't even CONSIDER the possibility of charter being scum shows that you are scum with extra info.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

statement 3 should read:


3) The only person that KNOWS charter is not a scumbag is either charter or a scumbag. A town Baltar would not know for certain that charter is town, in fact a town baltar loses nothing from having Charter stump just to be sure that charter is innocent as a mislynch at 4 alive will make us lose just as much as a mislynch at 3 alive. The fact that you didn't even CONSIDER the possibility of charter being scum shows that you are scum with extra info.

[VP Baltar]

1) You claimed on the same frakking page as that vote count. So, your argument that they didn't hammer you because of a claim is utter fail. The fact of the matter is that they were waiting for something better and missed the boat big time when the tajo wagon sprung up rapidly after that. When that happened, they had no other choice but to pile on you and hope that tajo didn't get lynched and blow their cover. Too bad you got screwed on that one scumbag.

2) A majority of them are from around that time it seems to me (though I didn't go source every single one). Also, if your argument is "weak attacks without substantially pursuing" I can very easily pull random quotes throughout the game of the scumbags launching minor attacks on you and never doing much about it. IIRC, there was even one point where Yos was defending you. So, it's a weak ass argument to make, especially since it is quite clear after my wagon that rofl wanted to use me to boost his claim and protect Yos.

3) Well, see, except you are ignoring the part where I said charter needs to stump before the lynch and confirm his innocence. Also, nothing about his play this game strongly says scum at this point. If there is, since you as townie have apparently considered it, then do point it out because I don't see much reason to believe he is scum at all.

Apart from that, I presented a comprehensive case on you and your reply was "I'm town". Just like all game. That pretty much confirmed to me that you were scum hoping to get by with unreadability and I'm happy to lynch you right now because I know you're the last scum. Unfortunately for you, charter and EK were both displeased with your minimal contribution and now that the pressure is actually on you, you suddenly have plenty to say.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

when the pressure is on someone, they will say things. that's true of both town and scum.

are you trying to get somewhere with that BS statement? trying to rally up that "anger"? lol

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

1) lol my memory was bad there, so i did claim. Your argument is still terrible, not every person that the scum fail to hammer at lynch -1 = scumbag. There are MANY reasons why the scum would choose to not hammer me, saying that they didn't hammer me = me being another scumbag is TERRIBLE logic. The reasons include:

1) Not feeling threatened, wanted to keep me around since i wasn't really contributing
2) felt i was an easy endgame push lynch
3) thought i could easily be fooled into voting for a townie at endgame
4) thought they would be overexposed by a hammer on me.

the list goes on and on. Saying that because a player did not get hammered by the scum MEANS the player is scum is HORRIBLE LOGIC. Because then it means every person who gets up to lynch-1 should be lynched, as if he isn't lynched, it must be because he's scum and the scum don't want to hammer him. Your reasoning is absolute trash and is NOT similar to my reasoning.

What I am examining is what the scum do UNDER PRESSURE. Aka a bandwagon about to lynch one of their own, what do they do? They all pile up onto a Xyl-town wagon. What did they do when Tajo looked like he was about to get run up? almost all of them ended up piling onto a pooky wagon. The scum votes were spread all over the place PRIOR to the tajo wagon BECAUSE the scum didn't feel threatened. When Pooky was at 6 votes, the most votes on any other player was 2 on Iam, with scum votes stuck all over the place, rofl was obligated to be on Iam due to the claimcrossing, Yos was still faking his suspicion of serial, it would make no sense for a scumbag to come out of the blue and hammer when they didn't feel threatened and could expect a townie to do it for them. When Tajo was feeling the heat however, that's when the scum votes started coalescing on the easiest town target, aka me.

2) I call BS on that, I don't see all 4 scumbags sitting with their votes on you like they did on me on Day 3. The key difference here is they actually did derail your bandwagon and ran up Xyl. Whereas on me, they ran me up and tried to lynch me. trying to compare the two situations is laughable.

3) The only way a townie can guarantee that Charter stumps to prove his innocence prior to a lynch is to withhold his vote. If you actually meant what you said you would never have voted without actually getting a stump from charter.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Saying that I'm being "selective" or taking quotes from when the wagon is declining on you isn't really a defense.

because

1) Of course I'm going to select the relevant quotes from the scumbags for when they are talking about you, i'm not going to quote them when they are talking about some dead guy as that would be pointless.

2) When your wagon is declining/being derailed is a pretty crucial time, these scumbags all decided to defend you during this crucial time while running up Xyl? Jeez, sounds like scum helping out a scumbuddy in need to me.