The Dark Goma Mafia: Massacre of the Cloth (Game Over)

[vollkan]

Reposting without quotefail

This is just stupid flavour tunneling.

I disagree...sorry if you dislike my reasoning.

No. You don't get to "disagree". Either you justify what you said or you admit my superiority.

The post I was referring to was, for the benefit of everyone else:

I am The Alchemist. I make potions

but don't know what I make

but yet people still want them. There's a war on but I don't care - I have a new set of potions and want to find out what they do.

You dont know what they do....

I am The Alchemist. I make potions but don't know what I make but yet people still want them. There's a war on but I don't care -

I have a new set of potions and want to find out what they do.

But you have a new set and want to find out what they do....

Odddd

This thing makes absolutely no sense. Spyrex's flavour claim there was pretty clear: he makes potions, he has some new ones, he doesn't know what they do, and wants to test them out.

As I said, you are just latching onto anything in his posts that can possibly ground or, more accurately here, give the illusion of grounding, some basis for suspicion.

Don't again tell me you "disagree". Explain why this is "Odddd" and, more to the point, why it is at all relevant for Spyrex's alignment.

If you can't do that, then admit your point was BS from the outset.

Theoretically he had a bunch of potions. Their colored, not labeled or whatever. But he doesnt know what the do. (Odd1)

Odd because.....?

He now has a new bunch of potions and wants to find out what they do.(What makes him more likely to know what this batch of potions do...he didnt seem to know what occurred at the onstart of today (Oddd2))

Omigosh! The flavour of a mafia game doesn't directly match exactly what happens in the game itself! Spyrex must be scum!

Just sounds weird to me.

Translated:

Shit. I have no objective explanation so I am going to fall back on a subjective feeling of weirdness that nobody can possibly argue against. That'll teach em.

If you dont like my PoV. I dont care.

Again, subjectivising. I don't "like" or "dislike" your "point of view". I

disagree

with your

reasoning

and have

justified

my disagreement.

Stop immunising yourself against attack.

You can shove ur superior shit up ur ass

Perhaps your biology works differently, but most humans already have their shit up their ass.

Though, I must thank you for acknowledging my superiority. Now just admit your arguments are crap, and you'll be well on the road to recovery.

the next question you ask me is gonna be fun to answer.

Given your current trajectory, I imagine it will be along the lines of "Nya nya nya nya, I'm not listening"

[Benmage]

You call the "xr" theory a dumb theory. Thats it. You havent proven it wrong, it hasnt been shown to be false. DOnt give me this mumbo shit on I need to prove its solid. Gravity is a fucking theory, go jump off a building and tell me how it goes for you.

I think SpryeX is a good lynch because of his back and fourth (IMO) on his power type. The "xr"/giver theory involved with him will just be a little icing on the cake....that can easily be resolved and put to rest (if hes telling the turh) with his lynch.

[vollkan]

Don't again tell me you "disagree". Explain why this is "Odddd" and, more to the point, why it is at all relevant for Spyrex's alignment.

If you can't do that, then admit your point was BS from the outset.

It wasnt and end all amazing point, no need to look further string him up now. I simply called his flavor odd. Its my opinion.

Of course it's your opinion, you're the one who said it.

I wanted you to justify your opinion. As in, what objective reasons are there are to why your opinion is valid?

You call the "xr" theory a dumb theory. Thats it. You havent proven it wrong, it hasnt been shown to be false. DOnt give me this mumbo shit on I need to prove its solid. Gravity is a fucking theory, go jump off a building and tell me how it goes for you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot

I have a theory: Benmage is scum.

He can't disprove it.

Therefore, he is scum.

I think SpryeX is a good lynch because of his back and fourth (IMO) on his power type.

Don't use "IMO" to subjectivise. Where has he flip-flopped?

The "xr"/giver theory involved with him will just be a little icing on the cake....that can easily be resolved and put to rest (if hes telling the turh) with his lynch.

This is another classic evasion technique.

Ben pushed his "-xr" theory again Spy. I showed it was unjustified. Ben can't defend it, so now he is trying to downplay its significance as a point.

[Benmage]

Odd because.....?

odd because an alchemist doesnt know what his own potions do. fuckina

He now has a new bunch of potions and wants to find out what they do.(What makes him more likely to know what this batch of potions do...he didnt seem to know what occurred at the onstart of today (Oddd2))

Omigosh! The flavour of a mafia game doesn't directly match exactly what happens in the game itself! Spyrex must be scum!

Or just a odd, but run with your theory I think he could be scum too.

Just sounds weird to me.

Translated:

Shit. I have no objective explanation so I am going to fall back on a subjective feeling of weirdness that nobody can possibly argue against. That'll teach em.

Oooo Ooo myturn.

I'm going to argue an opinion, and whats going on in Benmages mind because i'm superior.... after all.... If you say something often enough and long enough, it then becomes believable, and finally becomes fact.

If you dont like my PoV. I dont care.

Again, subjectivising. I don't "like" or "dislike" your "point of view". I

disagree

with your

reasoning

and have

justified

my disagreement.

Stop immunising yourself against attack.

Its an opinion. You cant argue this. lol...

Given your current trajectory, I imagine it will be along the lines of "Nya nya nya nya, I'm not listening"

I was thinking "purple" but that looks good too.

[Benmage]

I think SpryeX is a good lynch because of his back and fourth (IMO) on his power type.

Don't use "IMO" to subjectivise. Where has he flip-flopped?

Sigh* said why a couple times. Plum just rehighlighted it. (you're not tunneling ). First he says no power type. Than gives a vague answer referencing 'special'.

The "xr"/giver theory involved with him will just be a little icing on the cake....that can easily be resolved and put to rest (if hes telling the turh) with his lynch.

This is another classic evasion technique.

Ben pushed his "-xr" theory again Spy. I showed it was unjustified. Ben can't defend it, so now he is trying to downplay its significance as a point.

This one gets nananna and purple etc etc. You didnt disprove shit. You said it was up to me to prove it accurate. It hasnt been proven inaccurate its a theory. I'm following the theory that has yet to been false. Like gravity. I've yet to fly so i keep walking. God.

[Benmage]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot

I have a theory: Benmage is scum.

He can't disprove it.

Therefore, he is scum.

If it looks like shit, smells like shit, (you taste it and confirm it) tastes like shit...feel free to call it filet mignon and have others join in in eating it.

[vollkan]

Odd because.....?

odd because an alchemist doesnt know what his own potions do. fuckina

This is what I mean by flavour tunneling. This is a game. A role which makes potions but doesn't know what they do makes perfect sense from a game perspective. You are just picking his flavour to death in order to find something to rest on. Please die.

He now has a new bunch of potions and wants to find out what they do.(What makes him more likely to know what this batch of potions do...he didnt seem to know what occurred at the onstart of today (Oddd2))

Omigosh! The flavour of a mafia game doesn't directly match exactly what happens in the game itself! Spyrex must be scum!

Or just a odd, but run with your theory I think he could be scum too.

If "odd" means nothing more than "you find it interesting", why the hell bring it up in the first place?

Just sounds weird to me.

Translated:

Shit. I have no objective explanation so I am going to fall back on a subjective feeling of weirdness that nobody can possibly argue against. That'll teach em.

Oooo Ooo myturn.

I'm going to argue an opinion, and whats going on in Benmages mind because i'm superior.... after all.... If you say something often enough and long enough, it then becomes believable, and finally becomes fact.

I love that when I make a post translating Ben for the purpose of showing he is subjectivising, he then tries the same technique, but accuses me of simply arguing an "opinion" (ie. he is trying to subjectivise and relativise our disagreement)

If you dont like my PoV. I dont care.

Again, subjectivising. I don't "like" or "dislike" your "point of view". I

disagree

with your

reasoning

and have

justified

my disagreement.

Stop immunising yourself against attack.

Its an opinion. You cant argue this. lol...

An opinion is only valid if it is reached on the basis of sound reasoning. I have supplied said reasoning for my opinions; you have not (or, when you have attempted to do so (ie. "you can't disprove what I said") I have shown why your reasoning is invalid)

If it looks like shit, smells like shit, (you taste it and confirm it) tastes like shit...feel free to call it filet mignon and have others join in in eating it.

Yes. In that case, you have evidence that it is shit. Whereas, here we have no evidence Spyrex is scum. We simply have your dumbass assertions and the "You can't prove I'm wrong" defence

[milkshake]

A DGB wagon sounds good.

The only weird thing DGB has done (that I can tell) is his overwhelmingly vehement defense of SpyreX. People (myself included) seem to be leaning toward SpyreX being town now. They weren't then, though.

---

"I am an Alchemist" is bad. What, are you expecting "I am The Alchemist" or something?

Yes... that actually is what I was expecting. I actually got it too.

No, because Sculptor was non-Town and non -er.

Deathnote, The Sculptor, With the Council, obliterated

The Sculptor was town, and you should take up the -or vs. -er thing with the english language and the verb "sculpt" which is a nonconformist and takes -or not -er.

(Not that I believe the -xr trend will necessarily hold true 100% of the time, and not that we can make any great determinations based on it. But we've already talked about this.)

??? is generic "there are other things that can be in this slot" just like for alignment we've seen another wincon &c (with Kmd). Scum fail.

The post that you are taking exception to here was a bit quick. Vollkan's thing looked like a horrible lie when I read it... but I was incorrect (as several people were very quick to tell me)

Also compare this: with this:

There was a lot of time between those two 'this's. I'm not afraid to admit that as I looked again through all the evidence and things about SpyreX, I changed my mind. "Flip flopped."

The "flipflopping" that you are so concerned about with regards to SB, though, doesn't exist. My scum read on her is based on her interaction with SpyreX, her desire not to claim her one-shot ability, and the possibility that, despite being a claimed miller, she messed with SpyreX's night action on her.

maybe she was drawing people to target her which would affect them but-

No but. Yes, maybe she was. This is supported by what may have happened to SpyreX when he targetted her.

Says Vollkan is a liar when is obviously not the case.

Did you read the posts that came next...?

The logic is both BS and scummy.

It isn't, but your catching-up read-through of the thread has left you without a somewhat incomplete understanding of everything that is going on. I'm not trying to criticizing your reading comprehension or anything! I'm glad you're cought up, but it seems that your vote on me is largely because I've had nothing to do this weekend, so I've been active over the past few days (and, as you know, I'm not an established player and I'm bound to have to think through things instead of just posting "everyone lynch blank" as many people do). So... yes I'm what catches your eye when you read over the beginning of Day 2, but it would be more helpful if you could weigh in on the night actions, other people, and such.

---

No. You don't get to "disagree".

Remember what you're arguing about, though. "Flavortunneling" is a pretty subjective concept... I think he does get to disagree, I think that because I also disagree.... It's really not "tunneling," it's just what he's posting about.

However:

This thing makes absolutely no sense.

I do agree that what you quote here doesn't make any sense.

And:

(seriously, I've already shown why the "-xr theory" is a load of BS. Stop pushing it)

The idea is sound, but I agree that it's no reason at all to vote someone.

[Benmage]

If "odd" means nothing more than

"you find it interesting"

, why the hell bring it up in the first place?

Meaning can be rather abstract and depends on context which can certainly at times be tough to illustrate online.
Lol..we'll be friends before this ends. But everyone else will hate us. Yes I found it interesting. Why not share that?

An opinion is only valid if it is reached on the basis of sound reasoning. I have supplied said reasoning for my opinions; you have not (or, when you have attempted to do so (ie. "you can't disprove what I said") I have shown why your reasoning is invalid)

This is null. I think I gave you reasoning. The "interesting" aspects of his flavor claim...That yess isn't the best thing for mafia games. But my opinion on it can still be valid. The reasoning of it still sound. Both my opinion on it being sound and your opinion of it being unsound unto themselves (as in each opinion standing alone...can both be sound.)

If it looks like shit, smells like shit, (you taste it and confirm it) tastes like shit...feel free to call it filet mignon and have others join in in eating it.

Yes. In that case, you have evidence that it is shit. Whereas, here we have no evidence Spyrex is scum. We simply have your dumbass assertions and the "You can't prove I'm wrong" defence

Sure I do. I have him saying one thing. Than countering with another statement. the xr/giver theory is simply all the confirmed town people (and also off my own personal inside knowledge(my own pm) which I know is null, but not for me) wearing blue shirts and blue hats and SpryeX saying hes town too wearing a red shirt, red hat. Its not the biggest thing, but nor is it my focal point. Its a side issue that I would like to see resolved.

[milkshake]

I am not ready to buy milkshake's statement that he is not the hugest fan of flavor arguments - or, I'm not willing to buy both that statement and the premise that he's Town too easily.

By flavor arguments, I mean arguements about the actual flavor the mod posts, like in a role PM. I'm all about role interaction arguments and the like. I'm only talking about what-would-the-mod-write discussions... in other words, I don't think determining which is manufactured fake vs. reiteraed real flavor is a good way to play the game.

I know that that's only good play, nothing new. The reason I was talking about it is because I was worried I/we were bordering on the "bad play" side of flavor vs. role-based arguments.

[SpyreX]

Good gravy, miss a day and absolute madness.

No. I can't target myself.

Yes, I make potions. No, I don't know what they do. Yes, they are colors(ish).

Now I apparently totally missed the one-shot cop (which is sad because it means my colors have nothing to do with anything) but I am tentatively willing to give it a shot - dig thine own grave as it were.

I'm also irritated because, if true, that means my whole business has NOTHING to do with SB and thus makes even less sense.

Unvote

Now, on the -er front I THINK I have a theory that is partially confirmable AND makes sense considering my position and what we've seen. However, I want SOME opinions before I detail it because a.) it would involve some PR directing and b.) it -may- give useful information to the scum.

As it sits though I'll probably be throwing a vote a BM way. Not even sure which one at this moment.

@Volk:

Benmage aside, general thoughts? I want a more wide arch from you instead of the fight.

[milkshake]

Now, on the -er front I THINK I have a theory that is partially confirmable AND makes sense considering my position and what we've seen. However, I want SOME opinions before I detail it because a.) it would involve some PR directing and b.) it -may- give useful information to the scum.

Well, just POSTING your theory can't involve PR directing and giving useful information to the scum. Admit it, what you're really worried about is c) people eating it to pieces and angrily spitting the remains at you.

(I'm not criticizing- I would be afraid too- much more so!)

[SerialClergyman]

You can direct me any time, Spy <3

[SpyreX]

HAHAH, I like how you knew it was you.

Its really simple and I'm honestly a little angry at myself (and thus you ALL) for not following it through. -er is NOT a function of alignment. It is a function of ability type.

-er, being added to verbs as we've seen denotes active abilities. Thus, players with -er endings will have active abilities and those without (such as myself) do not.

Now, what this means is that SC has the ability to duplicate -er's. Now, the only obvious unclaimed er (unless I've missed claims which could be true) is Papa Zito.

Further, with this many power roles I think the chances are slim that we do NOT have a watcher-type role. Thus, I would propose: SC touches Zito. Watcher watches SC. Doc protects Zito. If anyone is seen going to SC they are scum and die. If Zito doesn't give SC an ability he is scum and dies.

Now, the only major downfall is the fact I think Zito and SC are town and thus I don't expect any of the above to happen.

[SerialClergyman]

Well, benmage is should definitely be an -er given his proponence of the -er theory..

I get giddy thinking about how many of you I could touch..

[chamber]

More or less caught up. Still haven't read the last couple pages of day 1. To help confirm Sprye's theory I do not have an 'xr' ending, and I am not active(though my ability certainly feels somewhat active).

My reads from scummiest to townest:

dramonic
Papa Zito
milkshake
Sajin
SerialClergyman
Plum
stark
KaleiÐoscøpe
Kise
SocioPath
tubby216
Rosso Carne
LlamaFluff
VP Baltar
Battle Mage
Vaya
Benmage
vollkan
SpyreX
DrippingGoofball
Snow_Bunny

Exact placement of names in the middle is approximate.

Vote dramonic

It took several days of free time to get threw this game so if I seem to have forgotten something obvious in the process please say so.

[curiouskarmadog]

Official Vote Count (Page 62, Day 2)

Snow_Bunny

-6 (DrippingGoofball, Papa Zito, SerialClergyman, milkshake, SocioPath, KaleiÐoscøpe)
Benmage -3 (VP Baltar, vollkan, dramonic)
Spyrex -2 (Battle Mage, Benmage)
DrippingGoofball -2 (tubby216, Snow_Bunny)
tubby216 -1 (LlamaFluff)
stark -1 (Sajin)
milkshake -1 (Plum)
dramonic -1 (chamber)

Not Voting:

Rosso Carne, Kise, Vaya, stark, SpyreX

Note: Deadline will be at the earliest, 10/30 3:45 PM EST, with 23 whole votes available, it takes 12 to lynch.

Note: Rosso Carne has not picked up a prod, if he doesnt post in 48 hours, I will begin looking for a replacement.

[VP Baltar]

It wasnt and end all amazing point, no need to look further string him up now. I simply called his flavor odd. Its my opinion.

So you call it a bad point, but you think he should be strung up for it?

This one gets nananna and purple etc etc. You didnt disprove shit. You said it was up to me to prove it accurate. It hasnt been proven inaccurate its a theory. I'm following the theory that has yet to been false. Like gravity. I've yet to fly so i keep walking. God.

There have been a few others that have come out and said their pms don't follow the -xr theory, iirc. Unless you think they are all scum with Spyrex and are risking outing themselves on Day 2 just to save him.

SpryeX saying hes town too wearing a red shirt, red hat. Its not the biggest thing, but nor is it my focal point. Its a side issue that I would like to see resolved.

Really? Seemed to me that the flavor and pm stuff seemed to be a lot of what you were arguing toward. What is your main reason for finding spyrex scummy if not that?

[dramonic]

[quote="chamber"]
My reads from scummiest to townest:

dramonic
Papa Zito
milkshake
Sajin
SerialClergyman
Plum
stark
KaleiÐoscøpe
Kise
SocioPath
tubby216
Rosso Carne
LlamaFluff
VP Baltar
Battle Mage
Vaya
Benmage
vollkan
SpyreX
DrippingGoofball
Snow_Bunny

Exact placement of names in the middle is approximate.
[/quote]

And are you planning to provide any reasoning for this? Surprisingly, I like knowing what I'm accused of.

[dramonic]

Also SpyreX, wouldn't the scribe giving paperslips and the rats investigating be considered active? Not sure your theory sticks (though it does for my role)

[Papa Zito]

HAI GUYZ

BAD NEWS

A group called The Converters (named after its leader) was formed and became the biggest threat to Surico and The Council.

So the leader is The Converter.

Convert

er

.

No more -xr=town theory.

Further, with this many power roles I think the chances are slim that we do NOT have a watcher-type role. Thus, I would propose: SC touches Zito. Watcher watches SC. Doc protects Zito. If anyone is seen going to SC they are scum and die. If Zito doesn't give SC an ability he is scum and dies.

Dude. Don't touch me there.

Also, I don't want to lose my power kthx.

My reads from scummiest to townest:

dramonic
Papa Zito

lolwut? Go read the game again.

So did I read earlier that a Scope wagon could happen? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

[SerialClergyman]

You don't lose your power. Night that I touch you it goes through, the next night I steal it then you get it back after that.

Sort of like a delayed blocker, I guess.

[Papa Zito]

You don't lose your power. Night that I touch you it goes through, the next night I steal it then you get it back after that.

Sort of like a delayed blocker, I guess.

Eh. That's not so bad I guess.

Here's something weird tho.

If Zito doesn't give SC an ability he is scum and dies.

So then...

I touched Spyrex and was informed I didn't receive an ability.

???

[SerialClergyman]

I think Spyrex was saying

1) If Papa has an -er role he must have an active role
2) Clergy can steal active roles
3) If Clergy doesn't steal a role when touching Papa, Papa must be lying about his role.

The assumption at number 1) seems to be incorrect according to chamber, so the possibility doesn't seem to work.

[Papa Zito]

I think Spyrex was saying

1) If Papa has an -er role he must have an active role
2) Clergy can steal active roles
3) If Clergy doesn't steal a role when touching Papa, Papa must be lying about his role.

The assumption at number 1) seems to be incorrect according to chamber, so the possibility doesn't seem to work.

Oooh, okay, that makes sense.

I can confirm that I have an active role if that helps.