Mini 861: Hellsing Mafia - (Game Over!)

[forbiddanlight]

As awesome as it is, not worthy of my vote switching over. So it will stay.

That's fair. I mean, if saber ends up needing a hammer, I'll switch.

[kikuchiyo]

Why doombunny over Saber? Personally, I am fine with either, but would prefer Saber over doombunny.

Personally, I have been a bit sensitive to DB's consistent stance on saber being "failtown". I am not convinced they share alignments anymore. Not sure if that came through with my earlier post. I was planning on pulling up the numerous times DB has "slipped" in this regard, but I'm certainly not going to go to bat for saber on day 1. I just find Doom's aparrent knowledge of "alignment" a bit more telling. Six of one, perhaps, and half a dozen of the other, and I have been wrong before, so whatever.

[Chaco]

Well, Saber is my first choice, but DB is also fine. And that is a good point on Doom, however I still stick to Saber being my first choice.

[Amished]

@kiku: I saw that too, which made me doubt. However, I can see scum trying to slowly "change" (which I see as more altering, especially after my questions of how DB got to classification of why saber was looking town in his perspective).

Scum (especially early on) try to keep their buddies in the middle to leaning pro-town in my experience, which is exactly where DB put saberwolf.

@forbiddan: You're welcome I saw that right away, but I was rather into the discussion at that point.

[forbiddanlight]

@forbiddan: You're welcome Wink I saw that right away, but I was rather into the discussion at that point.

Nyeh, I haven't been paying as much attention as I should, but I did see a few things indeed.

[Doombunny9]

Then who should be lynched?

I'm leaning on Looker myself but I'm still going to wait and hear more from him before I put a vote down.

So when do you vote someone for being scum? How do you determine that they are scum if people who "act like scum" can be town?

I vote for someone when I have good reasons to. Joking is Not a good reason. Maybe I wasn't so clear on this part but I've said it a lot before. Joking around is scummy. It is not lynchworthy. It seems like failtown to me because it was scummy but not scummy enough to get a vote from me.

Elaborate on this?

What more do you want me to say? Amished was attacking me, saber, and neo with weak points such as "You were joking around" and "You wern't here for a while". Lately he has been giving better arguements and helping town more. Some of his questions toward me were good with others such as the one I answered here "Are my questions good" seem like fluffy questions that have no point here.

[Amished]

Bolding and italicized mine.

Then who should be lynched?

I'm leaning on Looker myself but I'm still going to wait and hear more from him before I put a vote down.

So when do you vote someone for being scum? How do you determine that they are scum if people who "act like scum" can be town?

I vote for someone when I have good reasons to. Joking is Not a good reason. Maybe I wasn't so clear on this part but I've said it a lot before. Joking around is scummy. It is not lynchworthy. It seems like failtown to me because it was scummy but not scummy enough to get a vote from me.

Elaborate on this?

What more do you want me to say? Amished was attacking me, saber, and neo with weak points such as "You were joking around" and

"You wern't here for a while"

. Lately he has been giving better arguements and helping town more.

Some of his questions toward me were good with others such as the one I answered here "Are my questions good" seem like fluffy questions that have no point here.

Regarding the bold: Net had access. Between the 2nd and the 7th (not counting the RVS posts), he had one vote with nothing else. He didn't declare V/LA like I did, so I was hammering him for active lurking when I was being compared to him for some awful reason. Active lurking is not a weak point, and with my elaborated stance on joking, I don't believe that's a weak point either. Stop undermining my arguments after you say that my questions are good.

Regarding the italicized: You answered my question/point before I could point it out. I wanted your opinion on me so that you had less wiggle room on everybody. You state that my questions were good (so putting me more in a pro-town view) and therefore you can't retract that statement. I don't do "fluff questions".

[saberwolf]

Who are you to say you don't do fluff amished? That's for us to decide.

However, I can't say I feel justified with my vote anymore

unvote

Now to put it on someone who's starting to give me bad vibes

looker

i just don't like the recent posts made by him, they give all kinds of weird to me.

[saberwolf]

EBWOP:

vote: looker

[forbiddanlight]

I'm leaning on Looker myself but I'm still going to wait and hear more from him before I put a vote down.

Ok

I vote for someone when I have good reasons to. Joking is Not a good reason. Maybe I wasn't so clear on this part but I've said it a lot before. Joking around is scummy. It is not lynchworthy. It seems like failtown to me because it was scummy but not scummy enough to get a vote from me.

But why is it scummy if you don't think scum would do it?

What more do you want me to say? Amished was attacking me, saber, and neo with weak points such as "You were joking around" and "You wern't here for a while". Lately he has been giving better arguements and helping town more. Some of his questions toward me were good with others such as the one I answered here "Are my questions good" seem like fluffy questions that have no point here.

I don't think I've seen much fluff from Amished

And you tend to start with bad cases to get reactions for good ones

Who are you to say you don't do fluff amished? That's for us to decide.

Nyeh, it's technically a statement we can hold him to.

[Chaco]

I have two option considering Saber:

(/Number 1) He is scum.

(/Number 2) He has a post restriction where he must vote a different player each time someone says something about him.

How was that for a joke, guys?!

But on the reals, you're flipping like crazy.

[Amished]

Now we just need to get Archon and Fuzzy to catch up, konowa to post his extended thoughts that he promised yesterday, net to actually post opinions on other players rather than talk about his claim and we all should be good to go!

[saberwolf]

Chaco, I simply don't think that voting for Amished is a good idea any more, as he has convinced me otherwise.

I feel extremely tunneled >.>

[Amished]

@Saber: What about Looker's posts make you feel weird?

Also, AtE = if you're scum, and if you're town.

[Shotty to the Body]

I have two option considering Saber:

(/Number 1) He is scum.

(/Number 2) He has a post restriction where he must vote a different player each time someone says something about him.

How was that for a joke, guys?!

But on the reals, you're flipping like crazy.

The second option feels like it would apply to Looker more than Saber... Why do you feel tunneled Saber? Your being focused because there is no other legitimate case on the table, if you want to get unvoted do some scum-hunting and convince us someone else is doin' the dirty.

[Looker]

@Kiku & Amished: You learn new things everyday.

unvote

Now, if you don't mind, you can enlighten me as to the scumhunting process, because I suck at it. I actually thought this was a game of politics, I didn't know there was evidence to be found in what people say or write, or do in regards to the lynching and FoS's.

Chaco, I simply don't think that voting for Amished is a good idea any more, as he has convinced me otherwise.

I feel extremely tunneled >.>

How did he convince you? And at least they gave reasons as to why they're concerned, all you said was that you thought I was weird. How's that for scumhunting?

[Amished]

There are several ways to go about it, but it all comes down to looking at motivations. You might've picked up on that with some of my earlier posts (especially about joking, and somewhat so about "no suspects"). Scum will try to get away with anything that they think they can get away with. If you think that somebody is trying to do something that wouldn't help you (as town), then it's likely that they aren't town. For me, joking = distracting from the game, and slowing it down. Townies need all the information that you can get, so both outcomes of joking are anti-town and probably scum.

The caveat, however, are that people are prone to mistakes, so you need to try to separate the mistakes from the intentionally anti-town. Politics comes into play after you think you've identified scummy behavior, where you have to convince half of the remaining players that you're right (as you'll be the half + 1 vote to lynch them).

Lurking doesn't progress the game, and makes it hard for people to read you, and doesn't allow you to get a read on other people. All of these *are* anti-town, but this is such a "touchy" subject that that comes down to individual outlook. Some will lynch lurkers above known scummy behavior in game as they'll be around tomorrow (by not lynching them) to get more info from them and probably lynch them then if they don't change your outlook.

What's occurring now, in regards to saber and doom, is that they're wishy-washy. Scum have motivation to keep their options open so if they switch onto a popular wagon, they won't have contrary evidence to directly question why they're on said wagon.

Saber (as forb was looking for, and I provided evidence) is also guilty of a chainsaw defense. Tarhalindur came up with this originally, and is often found between scumbuddies. In fact, it rarely (read: basically never) works if either of the pair are *not* scumbuddies. There's ample scum motivation to save their partners (generates mislynches and keeps scum numbers up to make lylo draw closer). That's why people will often attack the questioners of their scumbuddies, and often vote for them like Saber did when I was attacking both Doombunny and Net. In this particular case, Net's claim makes it more likely that Saber was chainsawing for DB, which is also why I'd like to see DB lynched moreso than Saber, but either would work for me.

Also, the AtE that I commented on by Saber, and you quoted as well. There's motivation on both sides (town and scum, but leaning heavy scum) to make it look like they're a victim to draw sympathy to keep themselves alive. What makes scum different from townies in this situation is that townies know they're pro-town, and will strive to prove it to everybody instead of scum knowing that they *are* anti-town, and will try to look for other tactics to not be lynched that aren't based in solid evidence.

After all of that, I want you to go through and look for scum motivations. Also, I want you to place a vote, back it up, and ask at least one pointed question at anybody questioning why they did what they did.

Finally, the point about your vote: during the day, that's all you really have as a weapon, as any town role (barring dayvig). To put it somewhere that's useless has plenty of scum motivation behind it. It looks like they're scumhunting (by voting) but there's no scumhunting behind it at all.

This is all relatively basic, bordering on mediocre (which is what I classify myself as) mafia play, and should've been brought up in any newbie game around here from any IC's/SE's that we currently have.

Ugh, monster posts take forever. I've missed like 5 holes of golf on TV because of this. I'll most likely take the rest of the day off, and probably a good chunk of Sunday as well. I might pop in quickly, but not all that much. This is what I get for basically only playing one game at this point.

/me wanders off to the queue/replacement thread

[Looker]

whoa you're awesome.

otay!

[Amished]

whoa you're awesome.

otay!

Agreed, anyways, hope you're actually working on what I sent you out to do. If you missed it:

After all of that, I want you to go through and look for scum motivations. Also, I want you to place a vote, back it up, and ask at least one pointed question at anybody questioning why they did what they did.

[Doombunny9]

@Looker-Can you please give me a good explanation/defence of why you seemingly randomly voted Fuzzy and Archon and why you haven't been posting as much as you are now, when the pressure is starting to build on you? What you've said so far about it was pretty bad from my point of veiw and it's the only thing that can stop you from getting a vote from me.

[Looker]

That was kind of ambiguous, what do you mean? You mean why I was watching you guys or...? I mean, what do you mean?

[kikuchiyo]

Vote: Doombunny

This seems rather textbook, especially so close on the heels of Amished's educational post. But I digress. I'll let Looker continue this discussion on their own.

[Looker]

What is the likelihood of scum voting their scumpartner right off bat? As in the RVS?

[Amished]

WIFOM.

Personally, that's not something I ever look at. Theoretically, scum will have an easier time voting for scum, but it's just as easy to vote for any other stupid reason as RVS stages have that effect on the whole game's "meta", so to speak.

I'd say it happens as much as anybody else votes for scum, but that's looking at it from my own perspective and without any evidence to back it up.

Where are you on a readthrough? Did you start? Where do your suspicions lie? Have that question yet?

[Looker]

Currently reading through your posts, but will be reading through Chaco's, Shotty's, and Saber's as well. Rattling within my brain is the possibility of Chaco and Shotty being scum, but it's only a possibility. New developments will arise, etc, etc