Mini 686 - Chess Mafia (Done)

The Central Scrutinizer · Post Post #1400 (ISO) » Fri Oct 09, 2009 12:23 pm

And it's so self-destructive not to discuss moves for fear that black will have too much information that I want to go back and lynch whoever suggested that strategy. The town by its nature has less information, and we're limiting ourselves further. It's as if this town were a paraplegic who'd rather drag himself around by his elbows instead of using a wheelchair for fear of potholes.

RayFrost · Post Post #1401 (ISO) » Fri Oct 09, 2009 3:15 pm

veerus wrote: 1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. f4 e6 4. Nf3 f5 5. exf5 exf5 6. Qe2 Be7 7. Nd5 Nb4 8. Nxb4 cxb4 9. d4 Nf6 10. Qc4 a6 11. Bd2 b5 12. Qd3 O-O 13. Qxf5 d5 14. Qd3 Ne4 15. g3 Bf5 16. Qb3 Nxd2 17. Kxd2 Be4 18. Re1 Kh8 19. Qe3 g5 20. Bd3 gxf4 21. Qe2 Bxd3 22. Qxd3 Bd6 23. Re6 Rf6 24. Ng5 Ra7 25. Qf3 Rf5 26. h4 Be7 27. Qd3 Qf8 28. g4 Bxg5 29. gxf5

I'm just going to expand upon this line here to show a little bit...

Black ends up in a rather solid position, imo. If we do...

Black wins due to further advanced pawns. Forced sequences are not necessarily good ones.

ZazieR · Post Post #1402 (ISO) » Sat Oct 10, 2009 12:10 am

veerus wrote:1. I'm not scum.. if I was, I wouldn't keep trying to find holes in the poor moves that have been suggested by you and co
2. Lack of your (and your buddies') desire to respond to my valid arguments and be content to wait until a worse move is deadlined is textbook scum.. considering you replaced sirdanilot who didn't contribute at all to this game except to make attacks or lurk, you're not convincing me that his (and your) play wasn't scummy
3. Nothing we say can really "help" black at this point. This is chess and there are a few FORCED sequences here after g4, all of which win material in the WORST case. Your suggestions lead down a questionable path with no clear way to secure a comparable advantage. If your line is such a great attack, show us a FORCED sequence that gives us an advantage (like g4 is) and everything will be solved. This "helping scum" routine is, well, scummy and if this game ever gets to the lynch stage, you'll be at the top of my list.

1. You are scum and you're trying to find holes as you know that Nxh7 will be more destructive to you and your scumbuddy than g4.
2. If I was scum, I'd be all over g4 right now. Your argument of me going for the worst move is therefore invalid. The argument about Sirdanilot is also invalid when you look at his posts.
3. Wrong. Make a move. Most of the time, there are different moves you can do in return. This applies to both g4 and Nxh7. By discussing the moves, black can discuss what to do. Take the g4 bord in Post 1394. Do you really think that black will think at night?:
'Oh, look. A bord that shows how white can gain an advantage. Let's do exactly what they showed.'
Even you and your scumbuddy aren't that stupid. Instead, they will know what the plan can be when white players will discuss it and think of countermove(s) during the night. Without discussing, they don't know what will follow.
And as Emptyger luckily said:

EmpTyger wrote:ZazieR:
Take a breath and close your mouth. You're trying to argue an argument that's already been won. If someone has something to say, let them say it- until then, there's no reason to give play advice when only 2 players are objecting.

Though it's now 3 players who are objecting.

ZazieR · Post Post #1403 (ISO) » Sat Oct 10, 2009 12:11 am

The Central Scrutinizer wrote:
veerus wrote:1. I'm not scum.. if I was, I wouldn't keep trying to find holes in the poor moves that have been suggested by you and co
2. Lack of your (and your buddies') desire to respond to my valid arguments and be content to wait until a worse move is deadlined is textbook scum.. considering you replaced sirdanilot who didn't contribute at all to this game except to make attacks or lurk, you're not convincing me that his (and your) play wasn't scummy
3. Nothing we say can really "help" black at this point. This is chess and there are a few FORCED sequences here after g4, all of which win material in the WORST case. Your suggestions lead down a questionable path with no clear way to secure a comparable advantage. If your line is such a great attack, show us a FORCED sequence that gives us an advantage (like g4 is) and everything will be solved. This "helping scum" routine is, well, scummy and if this game ever gets to the lynch stage, you'll be at the top of my list.
I am town and I agree with the above statements.

I am town and I disagree with the above statements.

ZazieR · Post Post #1404 (ISO) » Sat Oct 10, 2009 12:12 am

The Central Scrutinizer wrote:And it's so self-destructive not to discuss moves for fear that black will have too much information that I want to go back and lynch whoever suggested that strategy. The town by its nature has less information, and we're limiting ourselves further. It's as if this town were a paraplegic who'd rather drag himself around by his elbows instead of using a wheelchair for fear of potholes.

TCS, stop proving again you haven't read this day.
And no, it's actually a good suggestion.

ZazieR · Post Post #1405 (ISO) » Sat Oct 10, 2009 12:25 am

Ray

, I disagree with the white move after Qxg5.

The Central Scrutinizer · Post Post #1406 (ISO) » Sat Oct 10, 2009 2:38 am

ZazieR wrote:
Ray
, I disagree with the white move after Qxg5.

Really? Because I disagree with white throwing away a rook instead of taking a bishop for free.

The Central Scrutinizer · Post Post #1407 (ISO) » Sat Oct 10, 2009 2:40 am

I mean, seriously... Ray and Zaz, if you're going to try to trick black into making a godawful move, you should be voting for the move of white that leads to said godawful move that you are promoting.

ZazieR · Post Post #1408 (ISO) » Sat Oct 10, 2009 2:45 am

The Central Scrutinizer wrote:
ZazieR wrote:
Ray
, I disagree with the white move after Qxg5.
Really? Because I disagree with white throwing away a rook instead of taking a bishop for free.

Which rook?

ZazieR · Post Post #1409 (ISO) » Sat Oct 10, 2009 2:47 am

The Central Scrutinizer wrote:I mean, seriously... Ray and Zaz, if you're going to try to trick black into making a godawful move, you should be voting for the move of white that leads to said godawful move that you are promoting.

Rephrase?

Indigo Heron · Post Post #1410 (ISO) » Sat Oct 10, 2009 2:48 am

Doesn't TCS (as well as anyone for that matter) ever read my previous posts?!

ZazieR · Post Post #1411 (ISO) » Sat Oct 10, 2009 2:50 am

ZazieR wrote:
The Central Scrutinizer wrote:
ZazieR wrote:
Ray
, I disagree with the white move after Qxg5.
Really? Because I disagree with white throwing away a rook instead of taking a bishop for free.
Which rook?

Seen it already. So never mind. It does exactly what I was aiming for, only better.

ZazieR · Post Post #1412 (ISO) » Sat Oct 10, 2009 2:51 am

Indigo Heron wrote:Doesn't TCS (as well as anyone for that matter) ever read my previous posts?!

I do ^.^

The Central Scrutinizer · Post Post #1413 (ISO) » Sat Oct 10, 2009 2:59 am

Ray's hypothetical.

Ray's response to this:

Which is kind of like fucking the ugly chick when you have her supermodel girlfriend in the bag.

Which not only increases our material advantage but puts us in a position so strong that you'd have to be tripping balls not to see it.

Which is why I ask Ray--why are you not voting g4, and why if you are not voting g4 are you posting godawful lines?

And I ask Zazier--why are you standing up for godawful lines? Do you even understand how to play this game or are you just entering characters into the chess tags to see where the pretty shapes go?

ZazieR · Post Post #1414 (ISO) » Sat Oct 10, 2009 3:07 am

TCS wrote:And I ask Zazier--why are you standing up for godawful lines? Do you even understand how to play this game or are you just entering characters into the chess tags to see where the pretty shapes go?

Yes, I know how to play. Which is why I support Nxh7.

The Central Scrutinizer · Post Post #1415 (ISO) » Sat Oct 10, 2009 3:15 am

Indigo Heron wrote:Doesn't TCS (as well as anyone for that matter) ever read my previous posts?!

I've read your posts, and therefore I disagree with you. Post 1384:

Indigo Heron wrote:*facepalms, muttering "Only human..." over and over again*

*recovers after 10 minutes*

Indigo Heron wrote:I believe that gxf4 is not a good move. It's incredibly short-sighted, enough said.

Re5 isn't very good either, at least when I compare it to either Qd3 or Nxh7.

Qd3 Qf8 Nxh7 Kxh7 g4 Kh8 gxf5 Rc7 Rxa6 Bf6 Rf1 f3 and really, Black is screwed all over.

OR....

Nxh7 Bf8 Ng5 Rf6 gxf4 Rc7 Kc1 Rxc2 Kxc2 Qc8 Kb1 and Black is still screwed, but at least he goes down trading pieces.

I've yet to make up my mind, but I will. In the meantime, I beseech you to unvote and discuss the new moves first.

Your first quoted line is among the dumbest responses black has to 28. Nxh7, and the second line contains moves that aren't even legal.

Until you guys can start considering the BEST moves that can be made against us rather than inflating your arguments with straw men, we've got no hope of winning this thing.

I ask for probably not the last time...

ZazieR · Post Post #1416 (ISO) » Sat Oct 10, 2009 3:18 am

The Central Scrutinizer · Post Post #1417 (ISO) » Sat Oct 10, 2009 3:20 am

Ok, for the sake of argument, here's what I think is the best countermove to 28. Nxh7 Qf7

The Central Scrutinizer · Post Post #1418 (ISO) » Sat Oct 10, 2009 3:21 am

Rofl, ok. Now moving past that.

ZazieR · Post Post #1419 (ISO) » Sat Oct 10, 2009 3:22 am

Ah, we agree on something.

EmpTyger · Post Post #1420 (ISO) » Sat Oct 10, 2009 3:30 am

The Central Scrutinizer [1415] wrote:
Indigo Heron wrote:<snip>
I believe that gxf4 is not a good move. It's incredibly short-sighted, enough said.

Re5 isn't very good either, at least when I compare it to either Qd3 or Nxh7.

Qd3 Qf8 Nxh7 Kxh7 g4 Kh8 gxf5 Rc7 Rxa6 Bf6 Rf1 f3 and really, Black is screwed all over.

OR....

Nxh7 Bf8 Ng5 Rf6 gxf4 Rc7 Kc1 Rxc2 Kxc2 Qc8 Kb1 and Black is still screwed, but at least he goes down trading pieces.

I've yet to make up my mind, but I will. In the meantime, I beseech you to unvote and discuss the new moves first.
Your first quoted line is among the dumbest responses black has to 28. Nxh7, and the second line contains moves that aren't even legal.

Nah. If you thought so, you would have said so yesterday. When we were considering Qd3 in the first place. But instead you just quietly went along with it.

The Central Scrutinizer [cont] wrote:g4 is a better move by far from what I can see. The lack of response to my query regarding Nxh7 Qf7 seems to indicate to me that
we don't have one.

The lack of response to your query regarding Nxh7 Qf7 seemed to indicate to me that we don't need your vote today.

The Central Scrutinizer [cont] wrote:Until you guys can start considering the BEST moves that can be made against us rather than inflating your arguments with straw men, we've got no hope of winning this thing.
<snip>

We're not going to tell Black what the best move they can make is when we don't have to.

The Central Scrutinizer · Post Post #1421 (ISO) » Sat Oct 10, 2009 3:36 am

EmpTyger wrote:
The Central Scrutinizer [1415] wrote:
Indigo Heron wrote:<snip>
I believe that gxf4 is not a good move. It's incredibly short-sighted, enough said.

Re5 isn't very good either, at least when I compare it to either Qd3 or Nxh7.

Qd3 Qf8 Nxh7 Kxh7 g4 Kh8 gxf5 Rc7 Rxa6 Bf6 Rf1 f3 and really, Black is screwed all over.

OR....

Nxh7 Bf8 Ng5 Rf6 gxf4 Rc7 Kc1 Rxc2 Kxc2 Qc8 Kb1 and Black is still screwed, but at least he goes down trading pieces.

I've yet to make up my mind, but I will. In the meantime, I beseech you to unvote and discuss the new moves first.
Your first quoted line is among the dumbest responses black has to 28. Nxh7, and the second line contains moves that aren't even legal.
Nah. If you thought so, you would have said so yesterday. When we were considering Qd3 in the first place. But instead you just quietly went along with it.

The Central Scrutinizer [cont] wrote:g4 is a better move by far from what I can see. The lack of response to my query regarding Nxh7 Qf7 seems to indicate to me that
we don't have one.
The lack of response to your query regarding Nxh7 Qf7 seemed to indicate to me that we don't need your vote today.

The Central Scrutinizer [cont] wrote:Until you guys can start considering the BEST moves that can be made against us rather than inflating your arguments with straw men, we've got no hope of winning this thing.
<snip>

We're not going to tell Black what the best move they can make is when we don't have to.

I don't agree with this idea.

And in different news Nxh7 is looking less awfully bad, but I still don't see winning a pawn as more useful than winning the game.

Yes, there are lines of Nxh7 that lead to checkmate, and some that lead to pretty bad position for black, but just because those lines exist doesn't mean that black is going to walk into them.

ZazieR · Post Post #1422 (ISO) » Sat Oct 10, 2009 3:39 am

The same can be said regarding g4.
The difference being, I see the moves resulting from Nxh7, but not those from g4.

Indigo Heron · Post Post #1423 (ISO) » Sat Oct 10, 2009 3:49 am

Black doesn't have a choice. Black's pieces are pretty passive, and White would have to be a moron to lose this game.

We're not looking at a materiel advantage right now. Nxh7 is a sacrifice, but we will solidify our position if we do so.

Abstract Actuary · Post Post #1424 (ISO) » Sat Oct 10, 2009 6:03 am

I'm not sure why I'm even posting since my thoughts are known and I'm just going to restate them. Wait, I know why I'm posting, to add to he lulz about Ray's sequence where we end up in a drawn endgame.

My favorite move he chooses is the Rook for pawn sacrifice of 32. Rxh7! Honestly, Ray, what are you even trying to do? You chose a sequence of moves with the sole purpose (for both sides) of equalizing the material and getting to a King and Pawn endgame. Neither side would have that goal in mind.

Anyway, like I've said before, both lines lead to positions where White has the advantage, so I'm not too concerned with us winning this game, at the moment. But I favor g4 because it leads to immediate, undeniable,

significant

material gain, whereas Nxh7 lacks that characteristic.