Open 173: Pie E7 Game over

[Scien]

Why are you voting for me then?

I am examining you.

Pressure helps examination.

[1] You haven't said anything about Kittymo or Amished. Why aren't you questioning them and giving them a reason to post? Doesn't seem like an effective way of getting as much info as you can, [2] though when hohum posts useless posts, you criticize me for ignoring them. But you're ignoring two players! This is just the easy answer for me to give (still true though), by missing things, [3] I meant stuff like Balter hiding behind me when questioning hohum. I see he's also hidden behind you as well, looks like you missed that too. [4] You know, ACTUALLY scummy things.

[1] Kittymo has made three posts. There is nothing to question. And the entire town is concerned. I may not have specifically said so, but I am included in that. But what can I question about? The only thing I could really do is say "OMG yous lurkin". Hardly helpful to add that when others have commented on it already.

Amished just got back from V/LA and is starting to participate. When he says something I don't understand, I will totally question him on it. As it stands he has not done that.

[2] Again, I am ignoring no body. I am looking at all the play, and questioning where I feel appropriate. I am definitely not specifically posting in thread that I am not reading people very closely and considering policy ignoring a player. My play is not the same as your stated play.

[3] I don't understand what the part of the phrase before the [3] box meant, sorry. However the stuff after it might be a good point. Can you show me where he hid? You are right, I missed it.

[4] Policy ignoring, and suggesting someone's opinion is worthless is scummy. Other's lying in thread is scummy. You don't have to agree with me, and I don't have to convince of you of this. I will question those actions though.

[1] They really don't tell you if someone's posts are town motivated or scum motivated. Like now, for instance, I'd be giving all the same answers regardless of alignment, asking 20 questions isn't as useful as one really good question.

I think they do because I don't see the town motivation. Since I don't see it, I assume scum motivation. My questions are designed to see if that read is right. If you answer in a way that makes me see the townie side of it, then I would have to drop my suspicion because you are right... the question doesn't help me anymore.

Just because you can equivocate my questions doesn't mean I see both sides of the argument. The only reason I am asking 20 times is I still don't understand how your play is townie, and the answers I am getting still don't make sense at best, or our completely non-helpful in clearing my suspicion at worst.

Ok, I think I've found the root of this disagreement. Information is not the same as MOAR WORDS PLZ. Typing as much as you can is not information and is bad for finding scum. Doesn't matter who is typing a lot.

That is not what I said and I believe you know it. I didn't say spamming was good. I was saying that ignoring someone that you are not sure about it is questionable. If you are not sure about them, you should still be trying to figure them out. Even if they are spamming, I think you would try to find meaning in it. Ignoring someone you are still suspicious of is RIDICULOUS.

You have much to learn.

True, although not helpful in this context. Townies don't need to lie. Townies don't need to protect information (unless it is power role based). The thing I am claiming is a lie was not around power roles, hence it was a untownie lie. Lynch all Liars. Smarter people than myself agree with that policy.

[Scien]

[... No] scum would be dumb enough to use the other answer as the other one would be "right" 100% of the time and would make them appear insanely townie (which is the point of being mafia).

When the comment I am 'harping on' was made, it was the 100% right play to make if you wanted to avoid suspicion (until it was botched by something that could actually be proven in thread).

It shouldn't have made me suspicious as it was relating to things outside of thread that should have had no bearing in this game and made no counter attack to me. The other way to play was to comment that I was making WIFOM arguments which is weak and deserved scrutiny, which would have flavored me against Dramonic.

Lets assume he was townie for a moment. I just attacked him with a weak WIFOM argument, and did actually suggest that I was suspicious because of it. Since he dones't know my role, he would need to question that play to determine if it was weak townie play or weak scum play. It would have been the 100% right play for a townie to make in that case. Making an excuse on the other hand does not help town at all besides clearing pressure on him (a townie) which was weak pressure to begin with.

You are right. This is looking at it from a perfect world perspective. If he was playing suboptimally it would throw this off. But I am going to give him the benefit of the doubt and say he is a decent player and would have played it differently as town.

[VP Baltar]

Ok, mega posts need to come to an end.

I'm not high strung, you're manufacturing suspicion. Big no-no for a town-aligned player. It's not good enough for you to come after me based on the mistakes I've actually made -- you've got to invent reasons to justify your vote.

Didn't you just admit to "manufaturing" suspicion on Charter that you later felt was substantiated?

Charter, what is your assessment of Amished's posts before he went V/LA?

Mostly active lurking/joking around.

Ok, so were your suspicions of him earlier based mostly on his play or the fact that he had not posted for a few days?

putting someone at L-1 on early pages, calling someone scummy over syntax and Charter's badnwagon behaviour.

Alas the latter is a null-tell after RotM

This seems lazy.

I'm siding with Scien that charter should interact with hohum if he's not sure about his alignment. I've had many arguments with people I felt were making poor accusations, but you still have to interact with them to get a good read. Hell, I attacked hohum because I felt the base he was building his arguments on sucked, but that doesn't mean I should ignore him. At best it's anti-town behavior.

I saw something from Balter I thought was scummy.

What exactly was this again? I don't think you've said yet. You tried to attack me on meta earlier, but then gave that up I guess. The only thing I see you attacking me for is allegedly attacking KittyMo for lurking while ignoring Amished...which I already pointed out doesn't make sense. I'm still waiting to see any kind of actual argument from you as to WHY I'm scum.

You know, instead of latching onto a single mistake I did you ought to try to broaden your view. You've yet to comment on Kitty Amished and VP.

Have you commented on these players?

@charter-have you played with hohum before? If so, what games?

I meant stuff like Balter hiding behind me when questioning hohum. I see he's also hidden behind you as well, looks like you missed that too. You know, ACTUALLY scummy things.

I don't even understand what you are trying to say here honestly. How am I "hiding" behind anyone? If you mean taking a side in an argument and asking additional questions to try and figure out someone's alignment, then you should probably look up what the word hiding means. As far as I can see, Amished and I are the only two people who have actually been going after every other player to at least some degree.

[hohum]

You think I'm scum with Charter now?

You're clearly NOT paying attention to the thread because this is the second time I've insinuated such a pairing.

Didn't you just admit to "manufaturing" suspicion on Charter that you later felt was substantiated?

Do you not see the difference between disagreements over game theory and something as mega-bullshit as a lurker wagon on someone who isn't really lurking?

Further, had I realized I was misinterpreting the setup mechanics I might have found a different reason to pressure charter as dramonic seems incapable of doing to me. Dramonic seems to favor deflection tactics and chainsaw-defense of charter over serious discussion.

@Charter: Hohum and Scien. Scien for his attack on Dram (Dram's action that Scien is harping on isn't scummy in my eyes, so the attack, considering the duration and intensity of it make me think he's trying to look pro-town by attacking something little for a long time, without looking at other people as much). Hohum for his first early posts, looks like scum to me. I could see them being scumbuddies as well.

@Scien: Don't answer my question with a question right away. Both could be used depending on the player and the situation. There is no clear cut "right" answer because if there was, no scum would be dumb enough to use the other answer as the other one would be "right" 100% of the time and would make them appear insanely townie (which is the point of being mafia).

Scien and Hohum are still scum.

You need to stop making vague posts and figure out a way to insert yourself into the discussion somehow.

@hohum: Most likely scum? Charter, where your vote is or Dram? Or somebody else?

Clearly charter and dramonic are my top two suspects, as I've been ranting on for a number of pages now about how we should lynch charter, and going back and fourth with dramonic.

Are you being purposefully dense?

[dramonic]

@Hohum: Stop being so aggressive. I'm not entitled to remember everything you say, just like you're not entitled to answer to me.

@Amished: I wouldn't find his hammering so scummy if he wasn't bashing so hard on something as insignificant

@Scien: You're dodging the question. Opinions on Amished, VP, Kitty?

[charter]

These are the two posts from Balter that led me to believe he is scum, I started this when I made my last post, but had to do a bunch of errrands. I'll just preface this by saying I'm really bad at explaining why something makes someone scum, just that they actually are scum quite often, so if I'm not clear, let me know.

What do you think of Scien's argument for a dramonic lynch?

and

Further, I've listed about half a dozen other reasons to vote charter. Charter on the other hand is holding on to exactly one reason to vote me.

But the original reason you found him scummy was proved erroneous, correct? You guys were having a pretty heated back and forth yesterday, how many of your listed reasons do you today think are indicative of him being scum?

In the first one, it's pretty bizarre that he asks just hohum. Hohum had already commented that he thought it was a good point. I believe he was asking to try and increase hohum's suspicion on dramonic (even though balter said Scien's argument was bad, which I agree with) by using Scien's argument, but it didn't really work. After asking it, we didn't hear another word from Balter about this. The other problem I had with it, was Balter seemed more concerned (in subsequent posts) with not lynching dramonic on page five than not lynching dramonic for a poor reason.

Second one is the good one, it's an overly cautious way of questioning hohum's reasons for voting me. He's not trying to refute these reasons, just asking hohum to produce some good ones.

Like I said, terrible explanations, but I'm reasonably sure Balter is scum.

[charter]

But what can I question about?

Uhhh, literally anything you want? 'Hey Kittmo, who's your top suspect?' 'Kittymo, what do you think about this player?' 'Kittymo, what do you think about this post? Why?' I'd think any of these questions would be excellent and none of them require any previous posts by Kittymo.

Lynch all Liars. Smarter people than myself agree with that policy.

The sooner you realize this is one of the worst mafia theories, the better. A LOT more people do not think LAL is valid than those that do.

Ok, so were your suspicions of him earlier based mostly on his play or the fact that he had not posted for a few days?

What I thought was him lurking, but he was V/LA.

@charter-have you played with hohum before? If so, what games?

Not recently, maybe before he flaked.

[VP Baltar]

In the first one, it's pretty bizarre that he asks just hohum. Hohum had already commented that he thought it was a good point. I believe he was asking to try and increase hohum's suspicion on dramonic (even though balter said Scien's argument was bad, which I agree with) by using Scien's argument, but it didn't really work.

Ah, no. I saw there being a potential Scien/hohum scum team and I wanted to see if he felt Scien was making a good argument for dramonic's speed lynch. This came from Scien basically ignoring the bad points hohum was making in his argument with you. I was attempting to assess what sort of connection, if any, was between them. Most recently, Scien has stated that this is part of his strategy to interact with hohum in a more productive manner.

The other problem I had with it, was Balter seemed more concerned (in subsequent posts) with not lynching dramonic on page five than not lynching dramonic for a poor reason.

Well, I still think dramonic has acted scummy and I'm definitely not saying I wouldn't support his lynch at some point today. Doing so on page 5, however, is very sub-optimal play.

Second one is the good one, it's an overly cautious way of questioning hohum's reasons for voting me. He's not trying to refute these reasons, just asking hohum to produce some good ones.

Again, you fail to understand how I scumhunt it seems, though my motivation for asking that should have been fairly obvious from the preface to the question. I wanted hohum to tell me if he still believed all of his reasons for attacking you the previous day because I think you were both being quite emotional at the time. Sometimes sleeping on an argument for a night will give you a new perspective on it, and I wanted to see if hohum's feelings had changed at all after he took a breather.

[charter]

In the first one, it's pretty bizarre that he asks just hohum. Hohum had already commented that he thought it was a good point. I believe he was asking to try and increase hohum's suspicion on dramonic (even though balter said Scien's argument was bad, which I agree with) by using Scien's argument, but it didn't really work.

Ah, no. I saw there being a potential Scien/hohum scum team and I wanted to see if he felt Scien was making a good argument for dramonic's speed lynch. This came from Scien basically ignoring the bad points hohum was making in his argument with you. I was attempting to assess what sort of connection, if any, was between them. Most recently, Scien has stated that this is part of his strategy to interact with hohum in a more productive manner.

What led you to see a Scien/hohum scumteam as opposed to a Scien/anyone else or anyone/houm scumteam?

The other problem I had with it, was Balter seemed more concerned (in subsequent posts) with not lynching dramonic on page five than not lynching dramonic for a poor reason.

Well, I still think dramonic has acted scummy and I'm definitely not saying I wouldn't support his lynch at some point today. Doing so on page 5, however, is very sub-optimal play.

I don't see where you've said or inferred dramonic is scummy. You just keep asking him to post useful stuff. What has he done that you find scummy? Why is this the first we are hearing about it?

Second one is the good one, it's an overly cautious way of questioning hohum's reasons for voting me. He's not trying to refute these reasons, just asking hohum to produce some good ones.

Again, you fail to understand how I scumhunt it seems, though my motivation for asking that should have been fairly obvious from the preface to the question. I wanted hohum to tell me if he still believed all of his reasons for attacking you the previous day because I think you were both being quite emotional at the time. Sometimes sleeping on an argument for a night will give you a new perspective on it, and I wanted to see if hohum's feelings had changed at all after he took a breather.

Fine. I still think it's a scummy post, but I'll drop it.

[hohum]

@Baltar: I'm glad you pointed out the fact that charter got so emotional towards the beginning of the game. That should send up red flags and certainly warrant additional scrutiny. A town-aligned player has little reason to get emotional over anything.

@Hohum: Stop being so aggressive. I'm not entitled to remember everything you say, just like you're not entitled to answer to me.

Aggressive is the One True Way(tm) to out scum. This passive-aggressive bullshit play of yours is going to get you lynched. Grab your balls and go after someone instead of sitting on the sidelines playing victim all the time. If you don't think charter makes a good lynch you need to explain why. If you think I'm the better lynch target then you need to make a case on me which needs to be based on something other than vague accusatory statements and a non-lurker lurker wagon.

Moreover, you DO need to pay attention to the thread, and I will call you out on it if you continue to skim. You can't possibly make a decent case on someone if you refuse to pay attention to the thread. This is scummy even in the best of light.

[hohum]

I find my read on charter to be improving somewhat. On the other hand my read on dramonic just went off of a cliff.

Unvote, Vote dramonic

[hohum]

] I'm not entitled to remember everything you say,

The fact that I've called you scummy, and paired you twice should certainly be (at minimum) noteworthy.

[Amished]

@hohum: What do you find vague about my posts? Care to actually question me to see if I can clear something up for you or just gonna say I'm being vague and ignore me?

Also, there's no one-true-way to out scum. Liar.

[Amished]

EBWOP: Hohum, since your read on Charter is improving (I'm assuming this means he's looking more pro-town) how does that affect your stance on Dram as you've paired them recently?

[VP Baltar]

What led you to see a Scien/hohum scumteam as opposed to a Scien/anyone else or anyone/houm scumteam?

This post is what made me think of it:

What do you think of hohum's constant changing his reasons for voting me every time he finds out what he's trying to push is wrong?

Perfectly in line with his meta every time I have played with him as a townie. He pressures to pressure. He keeps pressure on when certain points are addressed by changing the argument. But he is always abrasive about it in order to get the other person emotionally involved. I see nothing different here.

Felt like he was excusing bad play based on vague meta, which scum are prone to do. I've played with hohum a reasonable number of times, and I don't think he always does this. He definitely pressures people, but the reasons he was arguing early were terrible and I don't find that typical for him.

I don't see where you've said or inferred dramonic is scummy. You just keep asking him to post useful stuff. What has he done that you find scummy? Why is this the first we are hearing about it?

It's not at all. Try reading the thread...or are you ignoring me as well?

Here is my response when Scien asked me who I thought was scum:

Hohum because of his argument over the mislynches, and dramonic because he has yet to do any scumhunting though he has posted.

That reasoning pretty much stands for dramonic. The reason I have been continually prodding him over "useful stuff" is because that is generally how one would determine if someone is genuinely scumhunting or not. I know dramonic can be a little aloof at times, so I want to find out if he is avoiding going after people as scum or as town.

Fine. I still think it's a scummy post, but I'll drop it.

I hate posts like this. If you're wrong, you're wrong. Accept it.

[VP Baltar]

Also, there's no one-true-way to out scum. Liar.

Scien, thoughts?

[hohum]

@hohum: What do you find vague about my posts? Care to actually question me to see if I can clear something up for you or just gonna say I'm being vague and ignore me?

You made a blanket statement about my early posts without going into any detail which (conveniently for you) leaves me without a way to respond to you. Vague and scummy.

Also, there's no one-true-way to out scum. Liar.

I'd be more than happy to sit here and debate game theory with you all day long. I just hope you're not as hot headed and emotional as charter is.

EBWOP: Hohum, since your read on Charter is improving (I'm assuming this means he's looking more pro-town) how does that affect your stance on Dram as you've paired them recently?

I pair people off because it makes telling alignments apart easier. It doesn't mean I'm always right. dramonic looks scummy as hell to me right now so I'm eagerly awaiting his response to my posts.

I'm starting to think dramonic's play is less about defending a potential partner and more about appearing to be aligned against a mis-lynch.

[hohum]

@mod:

Can we get a replacement for KittyMo please? She's obviously disinterested in this game and I don't want a worthless player dragging us down.

[charter]

Ok.

Balter, do you think there is a connection between hohum and Scien?

I'm not ignoring you, I missed that you said you thought dramonic was scummy. If you are itching for him to post useful stuff, why aren't you asking him questions to prompt this?

You had answers to my questions, but I still think you're scum.

[charter]

Part of the reason I still think you're scum. I'm not scum. I'm pretty sure dramonic is not scum. I don't think hohum is scum. Scien I could go either way on. Kittymo I could go either way on. Amished I'm leaning town. I will be lame and say gut in addition to those posts as for why I think Balter is scum. So, I can easily see two of Scien, Kittymo, and Balter as scum, and since Balter is voting Kittymo (why are you even still voting her?) it's unlikely that it's Balter and Kittmo together. Basically, any way I slice it, Balter comes in the picture as questionable.

[VP Baltar]

do you think there is a connection between hohum and Scien?

It's possible, but Scein's latest post about approaching hohum differently this game seems honest to me and consistent with his play earlier. Could be an excuse for giving him a free ride, but it certainly seems less likely than it did when I made my original post.

If you are itching for him to post useful stuff, why aren't you asking him questions to prompt this?

I am asking questions. That was your original accusation, that I was only asking him to post useful stuff. Now you are saying that I'm not doing it enough. You're simply being ridiculous at this point.

You had answers to my questions, but I still think you're scum.

Yeah, you just jumped to the top of my scum list. I've been giving you the benefit of the doubt for awhile now, but congrats.

Unvote, Vote: charter

[charter]

Oh. Ma. God. You. Suck.

But seriously, did you see my little explanation for why I still think you're scum, despite your answers?

Also, the last time I find you asked dramonic any questions was post 128, and he answered them. This was before you said you thought he was scum as well. I don't really count "Have you commented on these players?" you asked him, since it's a yes/no question and easily verifiable without asking dramonic. I don't see how this is ridiculous by me, if you claim to suspect dramonic for not scumhunting, but aren't questioning anything he's doing.

[VP Baltar]

But seriously, did you see my little explanation for why I still think you're scum, despite your answers?

They were put up as I was posting, and I didn't preview. Looking at them afterward, I'm unimpressed to say the least. It mostly looks like you trying to justify a piss poor vote now that you have been proven wrong at every other turn.

I don't really count "Have you commented on these players?" you asked him, since it's a yes/no question and easily verifiable without asking dramonic.

yeah, except the point of that is to point out the contradiction in his line of argument. I'd still like him to answer it, and when he sees he has not, I'd like him to explain why it is scummy for one person and not for him.

[Amished]

@hohum: Fine, ISO 7 is why I think you're scum. What points of Sciens did you like? Clearly you still like Dram to lynch, so say more to that effect?

[Amished]

EBWOP: Also, your lack of content otherwise (ISO 0-6 is an easy target, and I can go into more details) makes your signal to noise ratio higher than what I remember seeing from you otherwise as town.