Mini 847 Murder in Zachtown (Game over!)

[yellowbunny]

Re: Sotty and BM's convesation about the lack of hammer on me:

I think the lack of hammer is a null-tell (although I acknowledge I'm hardly an unbiased observer.) There is a strong scum-motivation to not hammer in either case. If I'm hypo-scum, the obvious motivation is to wiggle out of hammering a teammate. As a townie, I cannot help but wonder if there was scum on the wagon who was worried about BM's change of heart. He's been the most dominant force in the game, and when I popped town, there is a good chance he would have come down hard on the people who jumped on the wagon towards the end.

What's the point? Regardless of my alignment, there is a strong scum motivation to quickly unvote after BM made his (in)famous "zomg she's prolly townie!" post.

@everyone who unvoted me after BM unvoted me: I'd like to see a detailed explanation as to why you unvoted.

@DT:

Also, your 635 is just wrong on different levels. First of all, as Nikanor points out, very fishy placement. Secondly, you weren't under pressure day 1, and claimed to be town...yet you say you are "...brimming full with information between players from my activity..." Exactly what information would a (alleged) mislynch of you give town? Thirdly, you claimed VT. When you did this, there 1 hour and 7 minutes left before the lynch, so its HIGHLY unlikely that there would have been enough time to get everyone to agree to lynch you and vote accordingly. This make your offer seem disingenuous.

Is there any reason you didn't address this? I am still waiting for your reply.

1. An unavoidable link between CSL and Mae which would test if either of you are scum. You said that CSL's defence doesn't make sense in a scum POV. It does in any linked POV, whether mason or lovers. You complain about being attacked about this link, but still bring it up as your defence. Ideally you would want to go for a CSL/YB lynch because Mae claimed PR. PRs make or break the game for the town.

Actually, I said that CSL's defense doesn't make sense if he's scum AND Mae is town. Masons don't necessarily know each other's alignments...but if he was a scum mason and she was a town mason, he'd have *some* incentive to keep her alive, but not that strong of one. Again, I don't see why a scum CSL would try so hard to keep Mae alive in this scenario.

Regarding lovers, I am not sure. I thought lovers had to be the same alignment. Is this not always the case?

One other thing, but here you assume AGAIN that Mae is town. Maybe I am being paranoid, but this is the SECOND time I have read something you posted and it seems like you know that she is town.

Given the fact that she said Kitty did nothing, if Kitty supports this then Mae's claim of tracker is confirmed. A mafia tracker is yet to be determined but should be kept in mind. Any problems?

Yes, one ginormous problem. What if they are scummates? Or, (less likely but still possible), what if Mae is scum, knew Kitty was town, and made a good guess that she did nothing last night?

Also why are you still adament about a Mae lynch for day 1 still when Neto's doc claim was verified through NKs.

Ew, this is some pretty gross logic. Neto told the truth...okay, good. But his truthfulness doesn't imply anything about Mae's truthfulness. (Also, I assume you mean D2, since Neto's doc claim wasn't verified til the morning of D2, right?)

because you are attacking BM not because he was scummy, but because he was abrasive to CSL in his posts. That is not scum hunting, that was lecturing someone about their posts and then voting him because he was mean. This is also known as fake scum hunting and appealing to the town emotion. Your retort avoids this critical issue.

Firstly, I explained why I thought BM's behavior was scummy. Why do you keep ignoring that?

Secondly, your whole second and third sentences here are a complete mischar of what I said.

Thirdly, the retort was pointing out the catch-22 you were putting me in. Also, this "critical issue" is based on a mischaracterization...so aside from me saying that what you are saying is blatantly wrong, I cannot think of anything else to say.

Again what is there to suggest Mae isn't a town tracker. If you can prove to me that Mae is mafia fake claiming or she is mafia tracker then prove it.

Lol...that question is just a *tiny* bit unfair. Btw, can you prove that she IS the tracker? I didn't think so...

vote: DT

Anyway, I gotta run...I have to catch up on the most recent page of posting, so I'll post more asap.

[jasonT1981]

I think Hito could be scum.

BM

See, now there you go again.. yet again you proclaim you think someone is scum yet provide NOTHING to back it up with.

[jasonT1981]

I tracked KittyMo - she did nothing at all.

Despite her incredibly scummy posting so far today, i'm still inclined to believe Maemuki's claim. We can let her slide for now.

I'd also consider a Kitty-lynch, if anyone was wondering.

BM

Yeah, this makes no sense. Explain.

What part of those quotes do you not understand?

BM

It means that once again you are happy for someones lynch without providing any evidence what so ever.

[Zachrulez]

2nd vote count of day 2:

Battle Mage - 1 (JasonT1981)
Haylen - 1 (Battle Mage)
DTMaster - 1 (Yellowbunny)

Not voting (Nikanor, Haylen, Maemuki, KittyMo, hitogoroshi, DTMaster, Vi, Sotty7)

With 11 alive it's 6 to lynch.

If I made any mistakes, let me know asap.

[Vi]

Posting to check in. I just got back to my own computer and I'm disgustingly far behind in several areas.
I apologize for the wait

[yellowbunny]

Okay, caught up now.

Regarding Haylen, I agree with the comments being made about her active lurking. OTOH, if she is not participating in all of her games atm, while the lurking isn't pro-town behavior, I'm not convinced its a scum-tell. I'd like for her to get caught up and participating asap, as I really don't have a read one way or another on her.

@BM: Can you please post your case on Jason? I wasn't too suspicious of him before, but his responses to your posts are making me a touch uneasy...

[DTMaster]

@Sotty

1. You do realize something: If Mae flips scum in that, her link with Kitty will be investigated. You pointed out three things: Mae-Kitty scum team, Mae being town tracker, and finally Mae being scum tracker.

Also tomorrow will help determine if Mae is town tracker or not, NKs especially. Neto was confirmed this way.

2. Unless the leading bandwagon is on a scum player, then why would scum not want to lynch a towns person. Mislynching is the fatal drawback when we lynch, although it was day one and any information gained from the lynch is helpful.

3. If you have sufficient reason to believe someone isn't scummy, then derailing the bandwagon on them isn't scummy. If YB turns out to be townie, then it's not scummy. I agree that BM's play is odd but his meta supports him. I dislike your comment about the derailing of the lynch though, I read more anger from the lack of YB lynching then the whole: we didn't get much information from a no lynch.

4. I claimed VT before night FYI.

@BM
I have a null read on Hito, mainly because I'm perplexed by some details. I addressed this earlier in my posts, and seems painfully obvious when you look at it, but he makes me go :S as I scratch my head.

Hint: Read my little exchange with Zach.

@YB
Sorry must have missed your point on my claim. I'll answer it.

1. First off I have an abrasive game relationship between you and me. A little bit with Jason and Neto at the time. I also shown support behind BM, and keeping Neto / Mae alive as well. Hence the whole town meta relationship infowebs.

If you wish to explore this through confirmation, we can begin today if you would like. I'm willing to take this further and genuine that a DTM lynch is a good info lynch at a crossroads. Plus the town was divided at the time so I hoped for some hyper activity.

Lastly, I was under no pressure to claim, but I felt like to claim. It's a bit anti-town yes, and during the situation very odd, but I doubt it's scummy.

2. Again Mae's case is left to interpretation. You case bases that Mae is scummy. Mine is based on Mae's township. Unless you got a clear result, that's the point of the game.

(Aside: There is a role called a treacherous lover where one is scum and the other is town. Usually he/she is the cop so its a cop/town lover)

3. If they are scum mates guess what, they just established a scum link.

4. My bad on the rewording. The point of the Neto thing was: we can confirm PRs through night kills. Mafia wouldn't let mafia ending power roles running alive. If Mae catches scum targeting a townie, they are dead. I did not mean to imply that Neto was linked to Mae in the way you said.

5. You do know your BM is scummy argument encompasses this idea: BM is scummy because he is abrasive. A quick ISO read on you shows this.

6. Your catch-22 is hypocritical when you did this to me. You asked me why Mae is scummy and is scum tracker/fake claiming scum. I asked what evidence you have to prove that she isn't town tracker. This doesn't change the fact that

You voted for the uncounterclaimed tracker

when there were other suspects. Again this condition applies:

If Mae flips town tracker, you are dead for pushing for her lynch.

Lastly, you ignored my question again:

I'll ask again: Why did you push for a lynch on the uncounterclaimed tracker? Explain yourself here. I would barely call that pro-town play when day 2 onwards are the time to deal with claims.

Also to prove a point, I'm very willing to show you how genuine I am.

Vote: DTMaster

[Sotty7]

@ DTmaster: I am annoyed that we didn't get a lynch yesterday because despite the various claims we have we are basically back at the start down one doc. I don't believe BM had sufficient information to derail the Yellow lynch which makes me suspicious of him and his reasons why he did it. Do you have meta on BM doing the same thing as a townie in another game? Can you link me?

I'll respond to the other stuff in the morning. Feeling pretty ill today.

[DTMaster]

The game just finished so yes I now can meta link you. :3

Day Night Mafia. I was scum in this game and BM was the doctor, so you get my scum meta at the same time. Lol.

[yellowbunny]

@DT: The link should be interesting. Can you also provide a link to a game where you were town?

On your response...

1. Okay, fair enough.

2. ditto.

3. Yes, but you are still ignoring other scenarios (like scum Mae, town Kitty)

4. Okay, I see what you are saying now. I'll address your argument about the tracker when I reply to your last point.

5. I think that your saying "a quick ISO read" is key here...BM being abrasive was part of what I was saying, but my argument wasn't that BM being abrasive in and of itself was scummy. My argument was that he was being more abrasive than what is normal as a tool, with the express purpose of trying to get CSL to do something scummy. In other words, the argument was that he assessed CSL's playstyle, realized he's emotional/not the most sophisticated player, and decided to play a psych game to try to get an innocent CSL to do something that seemed scummy.

Btw, I am significantly less sure about this argument now. Since I've played with BM a bit and read some meta on him, I could see him as town going after a player like that and, as he put it, not giving a "flying rat's ass" that CSL was reacting so badly to it. Not that my original scenario is impossible...just with BM's early behavior its more as a null tell than anything.

Does that make sense? (I'm feeling super shitty again...when I read it, it seems to make sense, but I have a bad habit of re-reading things I write while sick after I'm feeling better and realizing that no...that actually didn't make any sense at all.../facepalm...)

6. Wait, what catch-22 did I put you in?

7. Okay, about why I was still willing to lynch Mae:

Firstly, I thought Mae was hella scummy, and we were under a deadline. Her lynch would have provided a lot of information, and I thought her claim in particular was suspicious. Although my play with trackers is admittedly extremely limited, it seems like a role which would be fairly easy to fake (at least for a while).

Secondly, not all PRs are created equal. At that point in time, I was concerned that people might swing back to Neto, who I thought the wagon on was stupid and that he would have been a bad lynch. Neto was WAY more town than Mae for all of D1, and if I had to chose between a tracker and a doctor, I'd pick a doctor. As I understand it, trackers are more like PR detectors than alignment detectors (again, I've never seen a tracker actually do anything really useful in a game, but maybe this is my inexperience talking). For example, even if Mae was telling the truth, and got lucky and targeted someone who had targeted Neto...how could we know for sure it was the scum? For example, a cop could have targeted him (since he was under some suspicion)...and Mae saying that said person targeted Neto potentially could have led to a mislynch of a cop. Or, another problem I was worried about, is usually 1 mafia is actually the one who carries out the kill, right? So assume Mae targets a mafia who didnt do the kill and didn't target anyone for anything...then how is her role useful for us? I mean, for all we know, Kitty still can be mafia...all we know is she didn't target anyone.

And that's not even factoring in if Mae's lying about her role.

To summarize: If Mae's behavior had been less scummy D1...or if she had claimed a more useful PR (like Doctor or cop)...or if one of the competing wagons wasn't our pro-town acting, uncounterclaimed doctor...or if we weren't under a deadline...then I would have removed my vote. But after considering all of those things, I didn't feel comfortable removing it.

[yellowbunny]

@DT: one more thing that I forgot last night...you have said you are willing to let yourself be lynched for the sake of information. Given all of the information we had on D1, and last nights NK, would you consider yourself an optimal NK? If not, a good NK?

[Sotty7]

Actually, i dont see how my affiliation comes in to play at all here. Care to enlighten me? As far as i see, if YB is town, i did something protown. Whether im scum or not is a completely different issue.

How convinced are you that Yellow is town?

I basically come from the school of thought that we should lynch every day barring some game mechanic that makes it prudent not to. I don't think townies should be running around derailing lynches on hunches or gut. You thought Yellow was scum then you suddenly believed she was town, I just don't see your motivation unless you became near on 100% that Yellow is town.

Ugh, Sotty, tell me- why the hell are we even bothering to play this game if we arent going to try and ascertain individual alignments?? I cant stress enough that changing opinions is GOOD! haha

Changing opinions is good if you have good enough reasons. Your change on Yellow just seemed to come out of nowhere and I am having a hard time seeing it.

I think Hito could be scum.

BM

He needs to get back in here and makes some posts that's for sure. I was getting a town feeling from him yesterday however.

Regarding lovers, I am not sure. I thought lovers had to be the same alignment. Is this not always the case?

Not always no.

I think Hito could be scum.

BM

See, now there you go again.. yet again you proclaim you think someone is scum yet provide NOTHING to back it up with.

Outside BM, who are your suspects Jason?

The game just finished so yes I now can meta link you. :3

Day Night Mafia. I was scum in this game and BM was the doctor, so you get my scum meta at the same time. Lol.

Thanks. I will look it over.

Why are you still voting yourself? Are you just waiting for BM to come in a declare you a townie too?

[jasonT1981]

Sotty, I still suspect YB heavily due to CSL actions before he replaced out, it was CSL scum meta all over.

and also Mae now. the claim seems weird to me, not the usual type of claim. Maybe she thinks it is a safer claim and not many would question it if she is scum that is...

I pulled the exact same stunt in a game recently, and got away with it. I think it could be a similar situation here. I also didnt think much of her tracking result, I felt Kittymo was out of left field

[Maemuki]

BM, why do you believe my claim, yet you want a Kitty lynch?

And why are you thinking that people are this or that, without giving reasons?

[yellowbunny]

@Mae: What are your general thoughts on the game atm?

Who do you find most suspicious?

Two people (both Jason and myself) have suggested that Tracker is an safer fake claim. What are your thoughts on that argument?

[Maemuki]

Right now, BM. He has contradicted himself and he is expecting us to believe that everything he says is correct. No reasons, just "hito's suspicious, I would go with a kitty-lynch", and so.

Yes, tracker is a safe claim. However, I think that you should give me a chance on this one. You can lynch me Day 3 if you think that I'm fake-claiming. For now, just let me be useful, for once.

[Nikanor]

I need to make some sense out of all these walls before I post anything of content. Stay tuned.

[hitogoroshi]

Ah, sorry for not posting for a couple of pages. When it's just people arguing back and forth in a largely ad hominem way, I try to stay out of the way of the mud slung until it gets to a more objective sort of arguing. But I guess I'll plug my nose and dive in!

You do know your vote is already on me BM?

not 100% sure here, but it seems you are OMGUSing alot here... anyone who attacks you or disagrees with you, you are happy to see lynched.

Again, you are happy to see Haylen lynched but where is your case against her? (just like your vote and no case against me) Seems to me you are lynch happy not caring who gets lynched. you spend the entire post attacking others, then vote Haylen.. don't really make sense to me

I'm happy with my vote on you as it is right now.

I think it's going the other direction, here. BM's vote is like a jumpy little fly, and when it hits someone they tend to go all swatty. That doesn't mean the swat summons the fly.

I think the point none of you are getting is if someone (mostly BM that's doing this) casts the first or second vote, it is meaningless except for bandwagon potential, and a vote without rationale, and ergo, without bandwagon potential, is basicially nothing more than a little statement of intent. People reacting to BM's unjustified votes by voting him are missing the entire point - an early vote is ONLY AS STRONG AS IT'S JUSTIFICATION, and so, if there's an incredibly weak vote on you, and you respond with disproportionate force, you're showing that you're a paranoid sort. Now whether or not paranoia is a scum tell is a different question, but I think it's at least a slight one.

You should play some more mafia games then. Not elaborating on your votes, and being generally elusive is a towntell.

I'd say it's more of a null tell. If nothing else, it's an incredibly easy tell for scum to replicate. It's a town tell only insofar as townies have two main objectives with voting, 1.) starting bandwagons and 2.) gathering information, and the second objective can be attained with an unjustified vote. Scum, by contrast, only really vote for reason 1.), because they already know who is and isn't a townie. However, voting is free, and as soon as someone realizes this then scum can easily throw unjustified votes as though they were concerned about gathering information. So perhaps it's a town tell in most games, but as soon as someone acknowledges it's a town tell it becomes a null tell.

No, DTMaster is right. NL is seen as anti-town, therefore scum will play the long-game and attack people pushing an NL. Also, as DTMaster was suggesting- scum can use the prospect of NL to push through a second-rate mislynch. Scum rarely try and play for quick-wins, because a NL on Day 1 is far from catastrophic. In fact, with 1 kill per night, it actually works out in our favour.
BM

Umm, no? http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php ... %2C_Part_1

I think Hito could be scum.

BM

I love you too.

I have a null read on Hito, mainly because I'm perplexed by some details. I addressed this earlier in my posts, and seems painfully obvious when you look at it, but he makes me go :S as I scratch my head.

What the hell does this even mean? And how the hell can you make your mouth do that?

Changing opinions is good if you have good enough reasons. Your change on Yellow just seemed to come out of nowhere and I am having a hard time seeing it.

I fail to see how changing opinions for no reason in that situation is scummy. I see it as a town-tell, personally - since only a townie could receive information during the day that drastically changes their perception of events. Scum already know everyone's alignments (assuming only one anti-town faction). How could a scum get information that changes their opinion out of nowhere?

[DTMaster]

@YB
1. Meta links are found in my wiki.

I only have 3 completed town games, 1 as scum. The rest are ongoing but you can catch up on them. BM, Jason, Mae, Vi, Nikanor and Haylen also has personal experience with me so you can ask them questions about me.

Out of all the completed games Internal Mafia is with Jason that is completed as a Jason scum meta and a DTM town meta. Foggy London is with DTM and Nik town. The others I can't comment on. I'm a bit lazy but the links are there in my wiki so I won't link them atm. If you want to I'll link them here if it's more convient then the table in my wiki.

3. List of scenerios that I outlined:

a. Scum tracker.
b. Scum team.
c. Town tracker

the one I missed.

d. Fake claim scum that gambled on being right on town Kitty.

The latter would end in disaster if Mae was a fakeclaiming tracker who hit someone with a target ability. It's very unlikely to gamble like that unless Mae's meta shows this kind of behavour.

5. Where do you draw the line between: this is being overly abrasive and just normally abrasive. The argument is very subjective and leads to the point of establishing reactions on day 1. What I saw was BM generating information based on action and reaction. This latter part is critical for day 1 discussion.

Earlier I mentioned: the best way to deal with BM is to be calm but critical. Defending isn't scummy with good support, but defending over a statement and running it to the ground is extreme and shows extra sensitivity. It's not a normal defence and raises a red flag.

If this is Town-CSL he just selfimplicated himself as scummy on his own. Of course that is part of the game, to sift through the town and scum to find out who's lying.. etc.. etc...

6. Oh sorry a little accidental misrep here:

You said this

Is it just me, or does it seem like DT is taking it for granted that Mae is the town tracker? I cannot help but wondering if he knows something we don't...

The subtext to me read: Why arent you considering Mae as scum?

The answer is, well I answered it before.

@Lynch
But a town tracker is almost as powerful as a cop. They confirm people's night actions and can catch scum who kills that way. At the same time you confirm town actions. If Mae tracked the cop, she also confirms the cop's identity. I find this extremely useful to the town and disregarding the benifits is extremely scummy to me.

Read Internal Mafia for Trackers and Watchers (the tracker confirmed the doctor's story, but the mafia watcher confirmed the doctor's story too. The tracker got lynched because he

forgot to track the night mafia decided to not kill and for late game scummy play

).

@Neto vs Mae
The correct answer is to not lynch either people. It is not to choose to lynch between the town PRs. This means lynching me the self claimed VT or yourself the other leading wagon.

@NK
I don't get the point of this question since I don't have control over this. Asking whether or not I'm optimal NK material is also anti-town borderline scummy. The answer is obvious anyways for last night.

[DTMaster]

@Sotty
Proving a point, this has nothing to do with BM and everything to do with YB.

@Hito
I was trying to drop hints about it but I know you are ???. Remember when I voted Zach because there was a ??? on the list?

On Page 26 if you look on the vote count and the players who are still alive you will notice your name is missing from the voting list, but there is ??? there.

Hiding your name from a vote count when it's that obvious seems like an odd role you have there so I don't understand if this is a scum or town role.

[Maemuki]

Hiding your name from a vote count when it's that obvious seems like an odd role you have there so I don't understand if this is a scum or town role.

This is a Mini Normal, what are the odds of that role existing?

[DTMaster]

Explain the ??? then :<

[DTMaster]

EBWOP: And the extra vote shenanigans that BM discussed about.

[Maemuki]

...Good question. Maybe Zach forgot? I don't know.

[DTMaster]

Look at Zach's ISO 34 (since I can't quote vote counts) There is an odd vote in there making an extra apperance.