Mini 852- Crayola Catastrophe Game Over (Post 1158)

[ChiboSempai]

I don't feel it changes anything. SoG wasn't town either way which means to Snow_Bunny for all she knew he was town seeing that she would have known he wasn't mafia (considering shes mafia and knows the other mafia members).

The whole line of voting for her really didn't sitwell with me. I know I was one of the ending votes, but I didn't hammer for a purpose and wanted to see how she would handle the pressure having a chance from a normal vote to be turned to a hammer, and she jumped right to the occasion not thinking about it.

Why did you answer a question that wasn't aimed at you?
Would you have hammered him?
Is this the main reason you think Shanba is scum?

It was a good point brought up, and offered my view on it as well. Also considering it was my first post of the day, so I had input on the hammering and such anyway.

[ZazieR]

May I first read? Thank you.

[ZazieR]

I only skimmed half the game, not taking notes,

since I wasn't sure I would see morning

.

Why (Regarding the bolded)?

Pretty sure from the above post that Shanba is scum though. Buddies to chamber, affirms that SoG wagon was good except for the end because he wants to blame budja and chibo. And then connects me to budja because budja didn't agree with an attack on me... some BS reasoning that since the attack was weak, we are likely scum together? Why assume we're scum, rather than , oh say, budja saw weak reasoning and disagreed with it?

How did he buddy?
As for the SoG wagon bit, looking at your list with opinions of each player, you also state that Budja's vote was scummy. So do you still think that Shanba was blaming Budja? Also, what did you think of Chibo's vote?

Shanba's brand of reasoning is divisive, discouraging town from picking on a bad attack lest they be accused of being scum buddies. If Shanba agrees that it was a weak attack against me, then what Budja did was perfectly natural.

Rephrase?
Also, the last thing isn't what Shanba said.

I also think that discussing scum buddies TOO much is a scum tactic. Noticing relationships between players is a good thing, but noticing a connection between two players should not be the basis for thinking they're both scum. It is simply not enough and too open to manipulation. Possible scum connections should only be supporting evidence, until such time as somebody flips scum. That is the only time that we should get too far into scum buddy talk, when we have something concrete. Otherwise it is a fallacy.

Oh, and BTW, Shanba replaced snowbunny who hammered instead of allowing me to play the game as manzcar. Didn't want a replacement coming in and changing the lynch, did she? Not when she knew the lynch was not on any of the scum team. Push that baby through and NK me... much easier for them.

And another thing, did anyone else notice how Shanba blames the end of the lynch, conveniently not mentioning his part in it, how snowbunny's hammer was probably the worst vote of them all?

First paragraph: Looking at your list with opinions of players again, you didn't mention this at my bit. Eventhough you think it's scummy. How come?

Second paragraph: Do you still think this is the case?

Third paragraph: SB's vote wasn't the worst vote.

[ZazieR]

Chamber was replaced but the player slot is not dead. If you're saying chamber wagon was bad and he's town, then you're saying zazie is town too.

Oh? Didn't you say that the wagon was bad and that Chamber looked town? Yet, you think I'm neutral. Please explain the difference between this quote and your impression of me.

[ZazieR]

Yea SOG did play Jester pretty damn well lol.

But all seriousness aside, I'm not buying these posts from Shanba.

I like how he tried to even call Snow_Bunny scummy but claims it's not a problem since he knows the hammer didn't come from a scum player. Since you're declaring yourself as a townie here, mind telling us which one?
It's too convenient to play the whole replacement excuse trying to push all of scum reads on the person he replaced onto that person, and not on the role they shared.

If Snow_Bunny acted scummy (which I think we can agree overall it was a horrendously scummy move), it was because the role Snow_Bunny was playing was a scum role, not because Snow_Bunny was a scummy player.

And the scum role gets passed onto the replacement, Shanba.

Rolefishing.
Also, how did you come to that conclusion? (see the bolded)

[ZazieR]

Wow, I think this is the first post I disagree with Socio.

[ZazieR]

I agree with EK in that this was not necessary, and also a bit scummy, but I don't like her last sentence. Why do you think this, EK?

I don't think shanba is obvtown or anything. But the fact that chibo seems to be rolefishing hard makes me think shanba

may

be town. You know, that he's the victim of rolefishing-scum-chibo.

Perhaps Chobo is too new to know otherwise.

Seems this isn't the case as he just pointed out he has played before. Thoughts about his rolefishing?

[ZazieR]

Ok, so looking back, I think my case on Josh was a little far-fetched, and EK hasn't been acting scummy at all, so for the moment she's off my scumdar. Shanba, on the other hand,

has

been acting scummy (I concur with Chibo and Socio, although I trust Socio more atm), so, true to my only other post today...

Vote: Shanba

Chibo went up on my list for the rolefishing, but I think his case on Snow/Shanba holds water.

Please elaborate on the following:
-You stated that you think your case against Josh is a little

Why do you think this?
-You state that Shanba has been acting scummy. With which arguments used by Socio and Chobi against Shanba do you agree?

[ZazieR]

Top 2 scummiest players please, everyone.

Pome and EK

[ZazieR]

ooh, I've managed to slightly shock shanba.

Noted that this was the only thing you had to say in response to Post 345

[ZazieR]

I'd like to hear from more people, like Greendude, Nacho, and Zazie. But I'd give them some time, considering that Night didn't end that long ago.

That, and I was LA back then.
But if you wanted to hear more from us, why didn't you ask any question?

[ChiboSempai]

Before anything, Shanba can you please not type in all bold, even if it is a little easier to read. It makes it harder for people to scan and find votes, even if you put bold tags around it, though it comes out as text since your already in bold.

I already explained my vote on SoG. It was to put pressure on Snow_Bunny. I wanted to see if her reasoning for thinking SoG was legit. People vote differently when it's a vote (especially putting them at L-1) and hammering them. I almost wanted to see if she had the guts, believed in her reasoning enough, and would debate about it more before she hammered.

Her hammer post was well... Interesting. I don't like how it turned out. Besides the fact she missed color (which almost everyone has done at some point or other) but it seems to hint at rushing to get that hammer in before someone unvotes. She posted 3 minutes later trying to explain how it was technically me who hammered him also claiming that she didn't realized she hammered him at first, but that's not gonna fly. If she had actually thought about what was going on and read the ~1 page of posts between her two votes, she would know whats going on, and there would also be no need for two posts, the first being rushed imo, which had to be in even 3 minutes before her explanation.

Same policy as the Zazier replacement though, I'm not just gonna let a replacement clear all doubts. If Snow_Bunny acts scummy, with the chance she's scum (her being my #1 suspect right now), then her replacement is scum as well, being Shanba. Shanba is going to have to prove that he's not scum, instead of the opposite (finding reasons to think he's scum) like other players after my scum read on Snow_Bunny.

Vote: Shanba

Zazier seems to be one of the best players here at analyzing the situations and all of the players. What's your take on Snow_Bunny/Shanba concerning Bunnie's fake (accidental) vote on SoG, and her hammering post, and Shanba's reasoning for voting me?

First of all, why didn't you point out these things regarding SB in your first post of the day? You did state that you thought it was scummy, but not this detailed.
Secondly, I don't think you ever addressed SB's reasons for voting SoG. How come and what did you think of them?

At this moment, I'm leaning town on Shanba (Previously SB). Shanba has good accusations and I can see a reason why SB's hammer vote can be explained. Leaving my previous accusations, but compared to arguments against others, she looks better than most of them.
Also, I can see where Shanba is coming from against you as the reason for your vote is weak with reasons explained.

Shanba didn't even introduce himself yet, and I was curious to see what he was going to say first. Also, I don't have to put every single one of my thoughts all into one giant post at a time, sometimes I split them up into a couple posts to focus on certain ideas or topics. My vote doesn't seem to be weak with people agreeing with me. I don't think Shanba's explanations have been that good imo.

[ZazieR]

In response to this post from Chibo:
-Why didn't you state earlier what you didn't like about Shanba's big post?
-Why is this not the time or place to side discussion about Shanba's post?

[ZazieR]

Shanba, in response to your post about my 2 most scummy players, #1 is obvyou, since that's where my vote is. For #2, I'd like to hear from players who haven't posted in D2, but right now, if you prove you're town, which you're doing a horrible job of, I'd go after either EK or Chibo. But the case on you depends on them being town.

Rephrase?

[ChiboSempai]

Yea SOG did play Jester pretty damn well lol.

But all seriousness aside, I'm not buying these posts from Shanba.

I like how he tried to even call Snow_Bunny scummy but claims it's not a problem since he knows the hammer didn't come from a scum player. Since you're declaring yourself as a townie here, mind telling us which one?
It's too convenient to play the whole replacement excuse trying to push all of scum reads on the person he replaced onto that person, and not on the role they shared.

If Snow_Bunny acted scummy (which I think we can agree overall it was a horrendously scummy move), it was because the role Snow_Bunny was playing was a scum role, not because Snow_Bunny was a scummy player.

And the scum role gets passed onto the replacement, Shanba.

Rolefishing.
Also, how did you come to that conclusion? (see the bolded)

He started it by saying he was town. It's simple for any mafia member to just say "oh hey look I'm town." What he said had no base and could be explained further, or he could choose not to explain it further if he pleases. People don't have to answer every question. Sometimes not answering a question can give the questioner the response he/she wanted.

The bolded part is essentially the same as my logic behind the last replacement in the game, when you joined. If someone acts like scum then replaces, the person that comes in is still scum. We all know the scummy read from SB, but we have to ask ourselves, do you think she would have acted in such a way (the quick rush hammer) if she was not scum? No. She definitely would have not. It was such a huge slipup that it dead obvious. So now, if we determine that Snow Bunny was scum, then no matter how Shanba acts, Shanba is still scum regardless since he replaced SB. Besides the fact, I don't thin Shanba's posts/style for ridding this accusation have been very town-like.

[ZazieR]

While deciding who to vote in D1, we don't have much to go off of, nothing has really happened yet. Move forward to D2 however, and we have the voting procedure leading to the lynching of SoG from D1, the night kill, and the morning reactions. All of these things together point directly at Shanba.

How are all these pointing towards Shanba?

[ChiboSempai]

I agree with EK in that this was not necessary, and also a bit scummy, but I don't like her last sentence. Why do you think this, EK?

I don't think shanba is obvtown or anything. But the fact that chibo seems to be rolefishing hard makes me think shanba

may

be town. You know, that he's the victim of rolefishing-scum-chibo.

Perhaps Chobo is too new to know otherwise.

Seems this isn't the case as he just pointed out he has played before. Thoughts about his rolefishing?

I've been in other games, but not for long enough for any of those games to finish. Actually the first game I ever joined is at Day 3 atm and has been going on for a bit. I was just night killed the first night. I can find the specific date of the first time I posted in any mafia game for you if you would like. I'm not trying to play the unexperienced card (as I have not said it as an excuse one, but other people have), however I'm not going to deny it. Yes, I am still very new at mafia. If you all however believe that certain things I'm doing could be scumtells but write it off from me being new, maybe it's not how you guys play the game, but I think you're reaching too far into the situation. So I've found the legitimate scum tells on somewhat. Choose to believe me or not. I'm just saying however, that if you wish to catch a scum based on all the knowledge we have at the moment, Shanba is our number 1 suspect imo.

[ZazieR]

Alright, I have to disagree with you there. Defending against a weak case is not a scumtell IMO. Townies defend against weak cases so they can shut down stupid bandwagons (like the one on chamber or SoG, for example) before they even begin, or to challenge it (in my opinion, true townies challenge EVERYTHING). Scum defend against said weak cases to protect their partner(s). In other words, I think that it's a nulltell because both sides have equal motive for doing so.

Shanba later gave more reason why he thought it can be a connection between Budja and EK. Why didn't you address that and what do you think of it?

[ZazieR]

Ah Chibo, if you are still here, mind answering if you'd have hammered SoG and why?

[ChiboSempai]

While deciding who to vote in D1, we don't have much to go off of, nothing has really happened yet. Move forward to D2 however, and we have the voting procedure leading to the lynching of SoG from D1, the night kill, and the morning reactions. All of these things together point directly at Shanba.

How are all these pointing towards Shanba?

Sorry, I believe I got my words mixed up. The night kill doesn't point directly at Shanba. In fact, I'm really not even sure if Shanba had a say in the night kill. I don't know if Shanba technically replaced SB before or after Night 1 occurred, so I don't know if he had time to discuss with other scum about who to kill that night or if Snow Bunny was still the one to partake in the discussion at the time.

However in terms of the SoG lynch, that's obvious, we all know the SB ordeal. As for the morning reactions, I more mean all of the Shanba posts (since that's when he started) and he essentially had to try and rid the suspicion on him that SB attracted.

The reason I said the nightkill at first is because I was referring to the things that we have to look at now in Day 2 compared to Day 1. Can anyone get any reads from the nightkill?

---

In the future Zazier, please try to keep more up to date in the game please. I really don't like being questioned in depths about posts I made days ago especially since we've moved onto different topics now. I can't remember exactly what I was thinking about at the time, and I might miss some things in explainations now. You will get much better replies from me if you question my posts after I made them, not multiple days after I make them. For all I know I might have had a connection from the nightkill to Shanba but I honestly don't remember now.

[ChiboSempai]

Ah Chibo, if you are still here, mind answering if you'd have hammered SoG and why?

I would not have hammered SoG. I knew what people had thought about him and was suspicious of some things, but nothing enough for a flat out guaranteed scum read, which I like to wait for if possible (though that is hard to get in Day 1). Instead, I saw the opportunity to put Snow Bunny in the spotlight for the lynch, seeing if she would quickly take it without further discussion, even after having a "second chance" after messing up her first vote, and she fell right into my trap. I would personally have hated to vote the Jester, I'm against it as I play for a sole win, not sharing it with anyone else, which is how I feel everyone should play, for their team to be the ones to win. I honestly did not have any idea that SoG was a Jester though.

[ChiboSempai]

Also lol, I'm always here. I'm so bored throughout the day, especially at work and such. I literally check mafiascum for new posts in my games like at least 20 times a day.

[ZazieR]

Not only is he not doing the best job of ridding the suspicion imo, but it feels that he is actively trying hard to rid this suspicion and push it onto others, why would he make this such a priority? By just being a legit town player, everyone else should be able to pick up on this and worry about a possibly mislynch. However, he has to actively fix his reputation for a reason... why? Because he's scum.

I just re-read some more of his posts and found some even more things to be worrisome about... In Shanba's first post, right off the bat (though it is a catch-up post, but still...) he mentions suspicion on 5 different players. Then, when looking at all of his posts, especially considering he mentions how it is scummy to have connections with any other players, he strictly does not mention who he thinks ISN'T scum in any of his posts, and instead only mentions who he is suspicious of. This could easily just be his playstyle which is completely legitimate imo, but with how much he went into detailing the situations for covering other players, I get the feeling that he wants to drill the idea of no connections being a pro-town movement into everyone's minds then act specifically that way so everyone naturally believes he is town.

Regarding the first paragraph: If you think this is scummy, then why didn't you point this out against SoG and Josh?
Gut triggered due to the accusation in the second paragraph.

[ZazieR]

I have a question for you people: what did scum gain by snow_bunny's hammer?

Earlier end of day, meaning less discussion.
Easy target next day if SB/Shanba isn't scum, which I think is the case.

[ZazieR]

Ok, so I think I can give a more realistic representation of SOG's discussion with Zazie over not voting Socio than they can themselves...

I'm going to vote for anyone who votes for someone based on having an unreadable color.

I vote SOG for having a

readable

color.

SOG, you don't find that scummy?

No, it's perfectly OK, since he voted for the opposite reason I mentioned.

But it's still a vote based on color, which is in the same ballpark as what you mentioned.

But it's not the same, so I don't find it scummy.

But shouldn't you find it scummy, since it's still a color issue?

No.

Is this basically what SOG and Zazie mean by their arguments?

I hope this helps you both to stop arguing about this, and maybe team up to do some scumhunting

I was more interested in the "why". It seemed as if SoG didn't want the votes as he thought they were useless. The same applies to Socio's and GD's votes. But both didn't get mentioned.

And "team up"?

Well, they had obv played together before, and therefore they now know each other's playstyle and could maybe complement each other's cases better than other players.

"They" as in SoG and me?