California Trilogy: City of Angels - Off Stage (Game Over)

[Talilan]

VP the next scene doesn't even have any advocates, relax

No. That is not a valid reply to the reasons I gave not to do it. Until you provide any sort of actual logic as to why it is substantially more beneficial to have this lists at this exact moment, you need to stop goading people into making them.

As the default in mafia is giving your scumreads whenever they become available, on the contrary, I'd ask you to provide some justification as to why we should deviate from the default position.

Thok's "playstyle" is starting to annoy me. He only has two town reads in the whole game? And pretty much the rest of the players are "could be scum", or "hehe I think they're VIs, they could be scum too."

Then there's the non sequiturs and lack of reasoning e.g.

There are a bunch of people who, if they are town, I can't see much of a reason to listen to them (Talilan, VP Baltar, hewitt). Baltar's posts, which were a flat out attempt to shut down discussion about what people felt about Elmo was actually scummy. I'm trying to decide how much I should view Hewitt and the Ortolan part of Talilan as VI.

He seems to be claiming that Baltar's posts are an attempt to shut down discussion (which I argued against), but we are also labeled VIs? (without reasoning of course, the Thok-special). For the record I very strongly resent being labeled as a VI (which is in no way borne out by the game that I can see anyway?) by someone who's done naught but lurk the whole game, presents inconsistent reads and inexplicable trust in Gaspar, and is happy to write off legions of people, some of whom are confirmed town, calling Gaspar scummy without explicitly counter-attacking them.

[Thok]

He seems to be claiming that Baltar's posts are an attempt to shut down discussion (which I argued against), but we are also labeled VIs? (without reasoning of course, the Thok-special). For the record I very strongly resent being labeled as a VI (which is in no way borne out by the game that I can see anyway?) by someone who's done naught but lurk the whole game, presents inconsistent reads and inexplicable trust in Gaspar, and is happy to write off legions of people, some of whom are confirmed town, calling Gaspar scummy without explicitly counter-attacking them.

Have you read Baltar's posts onscreen at the end of scene 3? That's what I'm talking about specifically with respect to the attempts to shut down discussion. Instead of actually trying to answer my questions, he just called me and CKD evil and didn't comment. At least hewitt tried to point out his reasoning, flawed as it was.

I've already explained why I think you're ignorable. You've spent a significant amount of time basically going "Anybody who attacked me for my on screen behavior is scum", which has been proven wrong at least once, and which IMHO is wrong a second time. Also, if you're town, your On Screen post scene 3 is more reason to ignore you.

Basically, if you are town, I don't see why I should listen to you. I definitely shouldn't try to convince you of anything, since you seem unable to contemplate arguments that don't fit your view of the game.

Of the dead, BEC's attack on Gaspar's are mostly gut that I don't agree with, MJL didn't find him scummy, zwet is zwet. If you think Yos-town being suspicious of Gaspar is good reason to be suspicious of Gaspar, then more power to you.

I think a lot of the issue is Glork not having played in a year or so (as far as I can tell), so people aren't familiar with or don't remember his play style.

[Talilan]

I've already explained why I think you're ignorable. You've spent a significant amount of time basically going "Anybody who attacked me for my on screen behavior is scum", which has been proven wrong at least once, and which IMHO is wrong a second time.

Also, if you're town, your On Screen post scene 3 is more reason to ignore you.

Well see the thing here is you're basically saying "based on what I've seen I think you're a bad player (presumably in every game, not just this one), so I will safely ignore everything you happen to say." It's textbook ad hominem, and provides you a free pass to ignore anything I say, regardless if how intrinsically valid it is. Also please explain the bolded.

Basically, if you are town, I don't see why I should listen to you. I definitely shouldn't try to convince you of anything, since you seem unable to contemplate arguments that don't fit your view of the game.

This is one of the most anti-town approaches to the game I've ever read. Basically you're saying you'll completely ignore anyone you don't like.

Of the dead, BEC's attack on Gaspar's are mostly gut that I don't agree with, MJL didn't find him scummy, zwet is zwet. If you think Yos-town being suspicious of Gaspar is good reason to be suspicious of Gaspar, then more power to you.

Why does zwet being zwet mean he is incapable of ever being correct about anything?

I cannot believe you expect your approach here to win you games as town.

I think a lot of the issue is Glork not having played in a year or so (as far as I can tell), so people aren't familiar with or don't remember his play style.

Wait, this is really scummy. Since when does just conforming to one's meta (however you determined he did) make one automatically town? Especially a player like Glork? Have you not seen Gaspar manipulate everyone into winning as scum in the previous CT game? I can't see you, as competent town, assuming Gaspar is so easy to read that you can have been 90% sure he was town so early in the game (and have continued with similar rhetoric throughout).

[ShadowLurker]

SL, what are your thoughts on Talilan (and Ortolan's posting in particular)?

He makes a lot of posts; I'm not sure whether it's for the sake of posting or whether it's just normal (probably the latter, but I've never played with him).

I can't find anything to fault him, so I'd lean town.

The one thing I don't like is I find ortolan/Talitha strangely consistent. Judging by the rate of their posts, it's not like they're spending time discussing constantly. I feel as scum would coordinate their suspicions as they're falsified, while town would probably have more disagreements that we'd see On Stage.

---

GnB: Please address explicitly how the Crone's flip as a bad choice changes your opinions on whose scum.


Feeling pretty "meh" on Thok's posting. I'm really not a fan of how the Tabris + GnB v. Gaspar thing is dominating discussion, and I'd much more prefer a lynch on someone UTR.

[Thok]

Well see the thing here is you're basically saying "based on what I've seen I think you're a bad player (presumably in every game, not just this one), so I will safely ignore everything you happen to say." It's textbook ad hominem, and provides you a free pass to ignore anything I say, regardless if how intrinsically valid it is. Also please explain the bolded.

For the bolded, mostly, the fact that it was posted in the on-screen thread at all. (I haven't read the post, so I don't know what it says.)

This is one of the most anti-town approaches to the game I've ever read. Basically you're saying you'll completely ignore anyone you don't like.

No. I'm saying that I'll ignore somebody who has massive blinders on, refuses to consider other positions, and who seems to have a fairly wrong-headed view of the game. My time is much better spent dealing with the other players in the game. (In fact, I should stop this line of discussion, because it's not really helpful to either of us, and the resulting block quote wars will be a distraction.)

Why does zwet being zwet mean he is incapable of ever being correct about anything?

Zwet being zwet means that I don't think he understood the point behind Glork's switch to him, which is really the only reason he was suspicious of Glork.

I cannot believe you expect your approach here to win you games as town.

And yet, it does. (Well, minus the lurking part, which isn't helpful. I blame myself for that.)

Wait, this is really scummy. Since when does just conforming to one's meta (however you determined he did) make one automatically town? Especially a player like Glork? Have you not seen Gaspar manipulate everyone into winning as scum in the previous CT game? I can't see you, as competent town, assuming Gaspar is so easy to read that you can have been 90% sure he was town so early in the game (and have continued with similar rhetoric throughout).

Hey, maybe I think Glork is reasonably easy for me to read since I've played a lot of games with him, and I know the sorts of tricks he uses as scum.

My reading of him is also reinforced by DGB's play; it's very unlikely they are scum together, and I find her much scummier than him.

[Talilan]

btw- on me posting lots, I understand it might be frustrating, but I'm just trying to leave a paper trail. We got attacked a lot early in the game (for reasons I still find scummy), and in explaining our motivations thoroughly I believe most people have come to the realisation that we're town. So yer, they might be annoying to read, but they advance our agenda of looking town as to not get lynched and help the scum; and also allow us to actively scumhunt as we're trying to do. We have actually differed on a few things SL- Talitha wanted to vote Panzer yesterday instead of Yos, and she actually thought Mother was the correct choice initially. Otherwise, yes, we have agreed on a lot of things. We have a 130-post qt and have discussed many things before posting them.

I also can find no common ground with Thok really, completely disagree with most of his reads.

- ortolan

[Gaspar]

gaspar, you would love it if you could tell me who to send wouldnt you?

Of course I would. I am a power hungry lunatic. I wouldn't be Glork if not.

But seriously, I was suggesting that the

collective

tell you who to send, not me personally.

--------------------

This is one of the most anti-town approaches to the game I've ever read. Basically you're saying you'll completely ignore anyone you don't like.

I know Thok already answered this, but I have to say that I agree completely.

You cannot be reasoned with one bit, Ortolan. You are completely unwilling to consider that you might be wrong about ANYTHING.

EVEN AFTER ELMOSAURIAN WAS LYNCHED AS AN INNOCENT, YOU POSTED THIS:

It was because he was obv-scum (who somehow turned out to not be scum).

Elmo died as an Innocent, and even AFTER THE FACT, you're still referring to him as "obvscum."

If you are protown, you cannot be reasoned with. Even when faced with being wrong about a player, you sit here and obstinately state that the Innocent player was "obvscum."

I'm not trying to say you're a terrible person or that I dislike you, but if you're protown, and you are completely unwilling to consider the possibility that you are wrong, you need to find a different game. Everyone is going to be wrong more often than they are right, and the ability to adjust your worldview based on current events is what makes a player even mediocre at mafia as a game.


--------------------------------------

I can't find anything to fault him, so I'd lean town.

So, let me get this straight.


You went off on Orbots for one post:

Damnit, you guys were supposed to switch out the obvscum glork and lynch him. What the hell?

We're lynching the obvscum elmosaurian instead.

Well, except MafiaJin, since Sajin apparently has insights into things that the rest of us mere mortals don't.


-PZ

vote: elmosaurian

BIG RED X.

While knowing his alignment might be influencing my read, elmosaurian's posts were coming from a genuine perspective. That post is completely encouraging groupthink and stifling discussion.

Yet you "can't find anything to fault" Ortolan posting like this, pre-D2 (when Krew was slated to be lynched):

I will be very, very, very displeased if Gaspar somehow lives through day two. [/quote[

I think the important thing is we agree we should lynch Gaspar

Or this:

Anyway, it's cool, we can lynch Gaspar now. It would be highly disrespectful to disregard the wishes of the four dead townies.

Or this (by Talitha, not Ortolan):

I'll leave you with a couple of thoughts before I go:

1. Lynch Gaspar

Or this:

btw cee kay dee, please leave Gaspy off-stage so I can lynch him/her (and leave me off too).

Cheers darl,

orty

All game, Talilan has been trying to "stifle discussion" and "encourage groupthink" by mindlessly posting "we need to lynch Gaspar" -- even when Krew had outed himself and was clearly the correct lynch. Yet while you find Orbots'

LONE

"we're lynching you because you're scum" post to be shady, you don't find any fault with Talilan?

As you would say:

BIG RED X.

[Talilan]

Btw, not trying to find common ground with other potential town players is really going to screw us up this setup- scum are just going to exploit it to its fullest in their end-game choices. Fact.

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

GnB: Please address explicitly how the Crone's flip as a bad choice changes your opinions on whose scum.

This is the third time you ask. Why, the scum wants to know? I'm suspicious of your motives. Why me in particular? Are your buddies worried? Are you deciding who you are going to kill and you need the information now? Are you checking if you were succesful in manipulating my thoughts?

It's not like I'm ever secretive as to whom I suspect. Your interest is really bizarre.

[Talilan]

Gaspar's play also annoys me. His modus operandi of finding scum-tells is to blatantly twist everything you say. It's not insightful, it's not the mark of a good player, it's the mark of a lazy scum player resting on their laurels.

EVEN AFTER ELMOSAURIAN WAS LYNCHED AS AN INNOCENT, YOU POSTED THIS:

It was because he was obv-scum (who somehow turned out to not be scum).

Elmo died as an Innocent, and even AFTER THE FACT, you're still referring to him as "obvscum."

If you are protown, you cannot be reasoned with. Even when faced with being wrong about a player, you sit here and obstinately state that the Innocent player was "obvscum."

I'm not trying to say you're a terrible person or that I dislike you, but if you're protown, and you are completely unwilling to consider the possibility that you are wrong, you need to find a different game. Everyone is going to be wrong more often than they are right, and the ability to adjust your worldview based on current events is what makes a player even mediocre at mafia as a game.

It was clearly intended in the sense that "elmo looked like incredibly obvious scum, and the only conclusion I would expect a reasonable player to draw is that he was indeed scum." You seem to have agreed with this position? I know you might not in your life have been exposted to any metaphors, or similies or figurative ways of speaking, but that doesn't mean other people don't use them.

I also have no idea what you mean by "presenting my opinions as fact"? What the hell is that supposed to mean in the context of a mafia game? I think you are scum, yes, how is that "presenting my opinion as fact". It's like you're reading out of a textbook of cheap rhetoric to hurl at your opponents.

[ShadowLurker]

Btw, not trying to find common ground with other potential town players is really going to screw us up this setup- scum are just going to exploit it to its fullest in their end-game choices. Fact.

QFT. Although, I find this odd coming from you, seeing how hard you've pushed on certain players all game and refused to relinquish your suspicions.


Gaspar: There is a huge difference. First, you've never seriously been a lynch target. elmosaruian was an easy lynch target, and scum were going to try and get enough momentum moving on him that there would be no other course of action soon enough. Talilan and GoofballsandBalloons have been pushing on you from the start of the game and posting in that style. I've become accustomed enough to their pushing from you, that it's not out of the ordinary for them. However, from Orbots, who I had a town read on Scene 1, it is inconsistent with his past behavior, and raised skepticism of him.

GnB: Please address explicitly how the Crone's flip as a bad choice changes your opinions on whose scum.

This is the third time you ask. Why, the scum wants to know? I'm suspicious of your motives. Why me in particular? Are your buddies worried? Are you deciding who you are going to kill and you need the information now? Are you checking if you were succesful in manipulating my thoughts?

It's not like I'm ever secretive as to whom I suspect. Your interest is really bizarre.

This is basically what I've noticed from you:
-You think I'm town.
-You change this view to scum on the basis that I was supporting a choice that you thought was wrong
-You were shown to be wrong and are now just going to be uncooperative, instead of owning up/explaining the basis for your wrong actions.
And the most frustrating part that I have a strong town read on you, yet you are deliberately being unhelpful here and just calling everyone who disagrees with you (i.e. defends Gaspar, doesn't support the Crone) scum, making buddying up to you a very simple thing to do. Hell, if Gaspar got lynched and were flipped town, I'd bet you'd just ardently pursue his supporters instead of reevaluating your positions.

[ShadowLurker]

We haven't gotten a post from MafiaJin in 4 days 12 hours+

Sajin has posted in each of his other games on three different days since then.
SSK has posted once in each of his games I think, but has been on on three different days.

I'm wondering if they're intentionally avoiding the game.

[Gaspar]

Gaspar: There is a huge difference. First, you've never seriously been a lynch target. elmosaruian was an easy lynch target, and scum were going to try and get enough momentum moving on him that there would be no other course of action soon enough. Talilan and GoofballsandBalloons have been pushing on you from the start of the game and posting in that style. I've become accustomed enough to their pushing from you, that it's not out of the ordinary for them. However, from Orbots, who I had a town read on Scene 1, it is inconsistent with his past behavior, and raised skepticism of him.

The thing is, if Elmosaurian was already stunted off, then it was kind of a done deal -- roughly akin to saying "We're lynching obvscum Krew." It looks to me that the decision was already made by the collective, and Orbots was just telling Elmosaurian that.

I said "we're so lynching Krew tomorrow, it's not even funny" earlier in the game, and nobody seemed to find that shady then or now. Why? Because I was just stating what the collective had already agreed upon. From what I can tell, Orbots did basically the exact same thing.

There *is* a difference between what Orbots did, and what Talilan did, but I'm coming to the exact *opposite* conclusion as you, which is why I want to know more about what you're thinking. Orbots' post seemed fine to me, and Talilan's constant badgering has turned Talilan/Gaspar into a major distraction for a number of people.

[curiouskarmadog]

gaspar, you would love it if you could tell me who to send wouldnt you?

Of course I would. I am a power hungry lunatic. I wouldn't be Glork if not.

But seriously, I was suggesting that the

collective

tell you who to send, not me personally.

no, you have a problem with that..lynch me.

I dont want scum to know who I am sending before the scene...if you have a suggestion I will listen, but you are running out of time.

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

This is basically what I've noticed from you:
-You think I'm town.

I'm back thinking you're town after you ferreted out MafiaJin's recent posting patterns.

-You change this view to scum on the basis that I was supporting a choice that you thought was wrong

I did? I don't remember that. If I did it must have been a fleeting view.

-You were shown to be wrong and are now just going to be uncooperative, instead of owning up/explaining the basis for your wrong actions.

My actions were totally explained, I didn't hold anything back, it's all there.

...instead of reevaluating your positions.

I am re-evaluating my positions. I think it's weird of you to ask NOW, instead of after the scene starts. You still lean town, but I've added that on the "scum" side of your balance sheet. As for my new positions, they're still uncooked. Why fret about it? I make several posts a day, I never make a secret of my position on anybody, and I'm opinionated.

But then you're absolutely correct, MafiaJin is actively avoiding scrutiny, like a good little scum. He's as slippery as a snake dipped in WD40. Why haven't we set the dogs out on him?

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

...Talilan/Gaspar into a major distraction for a number of people.

There are good points being made but yes I am concerned with the lack of balance. The second someone makes a case against someone being scummy, gadzooks! The Talilan/Gaspar feud blasts in and stiflles that discussion, and the case disappears into nothingness.

Don't we have Thesp wanting Panzer dead? Thok pretending to hunt scum and sucking up to Gaspar? MafiaJin lurking hard? Starkiss is still in the game??? JellyLee's case against CKD? Pooky being uber cute? And there's somthing else I can't find anymore from this in-between scene, there's another case I forget. I'd be grateful if someone refreshed my memory.

We should be able to discuss these uninterrupted by Talilan/Gaspar. Scum is slipping away.

[Gaspar]

One thing I thought was really important to note is how a few people mentioned sending KY Krew onstage in the midst of him being one of the highest vote getters! WTF! That was horrible. MightyOrbots did it in 254, Thok says it in 272, and there were possibly others mentions of it. Did you guys talk about this later? Because that was really really scummy, especially now that we know KY was scum.

I don't think that we ever did talk about that later. It could be a reasonable topic I suppose. Why was it that Gaspar brought it up as something that was either an option or explicitly something he desired in posts 240, 244, and 256 right around then? I think I can guess at the motivation but I don't mind hearing your take. I know that I expressed my reasons for wanting to consider a switch when I brought it up in 254 but it'd be fine to talk about it if people would like.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

I did notice Glork talked about it too but I don't need to figure out my own allignment so I wasn't contemplating why Glork said that. It seems clear he wanted Talilan or MafiaJin to come back so we could lynch them.

I know I agree on Talilan, but not so much on MafiaJin. I have played with SSK recently and have found out that he is unable to explain the simplest things even when he is town, and that he doesn't put a whole lot of thought into what he does, and doesn't put a whole lot of effort into defending himself. So basically, my expectations are really really low for him and I'm not so hot about thinking he's scum.

I think you, MO, possibly had no ulterior motive for wanting to send KY Krew onstage because you seemed pretty obsessed with the onstage people screwing up. I think I believe that you were very concerned with them being confused about the decision. Was Talilan trying to float the idea that maybe both ideas were bad or something like that? (Another reason Talilan is scum, BTW).

Although, why did you want KY specifically to send the message to them? Was it role related? I wasn't sure. Could you have sent someone else?

But my guess is that there is a good chance that atleast one of the people wanting to save KY Krew and send then onstage was a fellow scumbuddy.

And that sounds like Thok to me since I see MO having a valid reason for wanting to send KY.

~Elvis

[sottyrulez]

Basically, if you are town, I don't see why I should listen to you. I definitely shouldn't try to convince you of anything, since you seem unable to contemplate arguments that don't fit your view of the game.

This is one of the most anti-town approaches to the game I've ever read. Basically you're saying you'll completely ignore anyone you don't like.

No he didn't say that at all. I can understand his reasoning here as for as you thinking anyone who attacks you is scum. This is Thok talking strictly about you and no one else. You are trying to make it out to be worse than what it is here. Not cool.

I see both Thok and Gasper addressed this. I agree with what they said.

I am happy with CKD picking his own list of who goes on stage as long as he explains the reasons like he did before, it could be a good way to figure out his alignment.

-Sotty.

[Gaspar]

66 - Hewitt expresses how he likes the attacks on zwet and finds them funny because zwet is a weak player. wtf.

What is that even supposed to mean? Why even point that out? Like what's the problem with that? Don't just go quote me and then say what the fuck. Explain how that's significant.

I don't like your expressed glee at seeing people attack a person you see as a weak player.

What kind of person finds it funny when everyone gangs up on a weak player? A scumbag.

~Elvis

[Gaspar]

One thing I thought was really important to note is how a few people mentioned sending KY Krew onstage in the midst of him being one of the highest vote getters! WTF! That was horrible. MightyOrbots did it in 254, Thok says it in 272, and there were possibly others mentions of it. Did you guys talk about this later? Because that was really really scummy, especially now that we know KY was scum.

~Elvis

First of all, Gaspar (your role) also discussed the possibility of KY Krew going onscreen, in the time frame you were discussing, even while voting him.

Secondly, at that time, there seemed to be a real chance that the on-stage people would vote for what was relatively obviously a poor decision to the off-stage people.

Thirdly, the KY Krew wagon at that time was mostly a lurker wagon (and at the time you were discussing, he was at 3 votes, with 6 needed to lynch.) Bagel Eating Cowfrog described it as merely being a decent wagon, for example. Then KY Krew kept lurking and said some stupid stuff, got wagoned some more for that, and then he jumped off-screen rather than defending himself and outed himself as obvscum.

As for Glork discussing it too, I addressed this already.

As for your worries about the on-stage people, did you express your feelings elsewhere? I saw MO seemed genuinely concerned and kept talking about it. Did you?

Even if it was a lurker wagon, they and zwet were the best you had at the time. Why did it seem like a good idea to get rid of one of your top two suspects, even if they weren't that strongly suspected?

~Elvis

[Mighty Orbots]

Although, why did you want KY specifically to send the message to them? Was it role related? I wasn't sure. Could you have sent someone else?

That's probably part of the source of confusion there. KY Krew was the only one that could be sent. He had the stuntman job at the time. We can only send one person per scene and it has to be the stuntman (currently there is no stuntman; the assistant producer should assign one after the scene has started.)

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[StarKiss]

*dodges prod by an inch*

Sorry, was away for a few days. Needless to say I expected at least one of my other heads to post something. I'll PM/Stab them both in a swift motion.

reading up

~Dram~

[curiouskarmadog]

only thing I will say is, I dont plan on being ON stage.

[Mighty Orbots]

Talilan and GoofballsandBalloons have been pushing on you from the start of the game and posting in that style. I've become accustomed enough to their pushing from you, that it's not out of the ordinary for them. However, from Orbots, who I had a town read on Scene 1, it is inconsistent with his past behavior, and raised skepticism of him.

Oh FFS. I just explained this to you, so you ignore it and continue parroting the idea anyway?

I HAD A CASE ON ELMO EARLY DAY 1. HERE, L@@K.

Then I got the flu and Troll took over. When I got back I was stuck on stage day 2 while Yos was going through his bizarre KY gyrations. So then I went back to him on day 3. You're trying really hard to paint this picture that I went after a wounded duck when I was the one who shot him first. Ignore my crappy metaphor plz.

[Mighty Orbots]

So, one other bit of business.

Troll's decided to leave the Mighty Orbots hydra. We've been butting heads quite a bit in our QT thread about various things and we haven't really been able to resolve our issues. I think it's due mainly to our vastly different playstyles really; I'm kind of a "hey let's push this button and see what happens lulz" kind of guy while he's more of a "here's our 97 step plan for success" kind of guy.

Since our off-off-camera shenanigans were draining the fun of the game for him I'll taking over MO full time from this point on. It's a pretty big loss for all of us imo but we'll manage. Many thanks to Troll for putting up with me this long and hopefully we can do better in the future.

-PZ