Mini 852- Crayola Catastrophe Game Over (Post 1158)

[Kirbyoshi]

Shanba, in response to your post about my 2 most scummy players, #1 is obvyou, since that's where my vote is. For #2, I'd like to hear from players who haven't posted in D2, but right now, if you prove you're town, which you're doing a horrible job of, I'd go after either EK or Chibo. But the case on you depends on them being town.

[Budja]

My defending of Josh was an attempt to stop the, useless IMO, random-vote back-and-forth with Zazier as that seemed to be his main focus.
I was planning on unvoting chamber if he gave decent reasoning for his view or changed his mind. Replacing out was even better.

Kirby is now looking quite scummy. For one you haven't answered my questions.

I'm pretty sure that between Shanba and EK is one, and only one, scum

[...] but like I said, there's one scum there.

Why must one of them be scum?

[...] Josh just seemed scummy from his posts

First I've heard of this. Why didn't you mention this yesterday.

I am really getting the feeling Kirby is sitting on the sidelines of the EK, Shanba, Chibo debate ready to vote for the "scummiest".

I'm not seeing EK or Shanba as scum and I'm uncertain on Chibo. I'll have to read through the debate properly. (I've just skimmed for now).

vote Kirbyoshi

[ChiboSempai]

It's quite simple. Look at Snow_Bunnys posts and actions first. Do they seem scummy? Yes.

Now Shanba comes in replacing her and has to rid this suspicion on him (since it seems most people were discontent especially with her hammer) and he's doing a very poor job of it imo, only proving my suspicions thus further.

While deciding who to vote in D1, we don't have much to go off of, nothing has really happened yet. Move forward to D2 however, and we have the voting procedure leading to the lynching of SoG from D1, the night kill, and the morning reactions. All of these things together point directly at Shanba.

[Nachomamma8]

<snip>
Budja steps in for Josh_Lyman and that, to me, is fairly telling. In my experience, scum are far more likely to step in for each other when the case is weak (which it is) than if they think it's strong: not pointa rguing with the inevitable, but there is ample incentive to try and move lowgrade pressure away from a scumbuddy, since lowgrade can pretty quickly become high grade and then can escalate out of control.

Chibosempai, budja, josh. Also a little bit of pome, nachomamma in the mix for gut reasons I can't really articulate.

Vote: ChiboSempai

Alright, I have to disagree with you there. Defending against a weak case is not a scumtell IMO. Townies defend against weak cases so they can shut down stupid bandwagons (like the one on chamber or SoG, for example) before they even begin, or to challenge it (in my opinion, true townies challenge EVERYTHING). Scum defend against said weak cases to protect their partner(s). In other words, I think that it's a nulltell because both sides have equal motive for doing so.

As for you gut reasons you can't articulate, why did you mention those? Mentioning suspicions without much merit or reason only give scum enough time to read the thread for things to frame you for...

[Nachomamma8]

The preceeding post was in color.

[ChiboSempai]

EBWOP

Elaborating on this part further from my last post:

"Now Shanba comes in replacing her and has to rid this suspicion on him (since it seems most people were discontent especially with her hammer) and he's doing a very poor job of it imo, only proving my suspicions thus further. "

Not only is he not doing the best job of ridding the suspicion imo, but it feels that he is actively trying hard to rid this suspicion and push it onto others, why would he make this such a priority? By just being a legit town player, everyone else should be able to pick up on this and worry about a possibly mislynch. However, he has to actively fix his reputation for a reason... why? Because he's scum.

I just re-read some more of his posts and found some even more things to be worrisome about... In Shanba's first post, right off the bat (though it is a catch-up post, but still...) he mentions suspicion on 5 different players. Then, when looking at all of his posts, especially considering he mentions how it is scummy to have connections with any other players, he strictly does not mention who he thinks ISN'T scum in any of his posts, and instead only mentions who he is suspicious of. This could easily just be his playstyle which is completely legitimate imo, but with how much he went into detailing the situations for covering other players, I get the feeling that he wants to drill the idea of no connections being a pro-town movement into everyone's minds then act specifically that way so everyone naturally believes he is town.

The more I read into his posts, even without that many (though you can continue from the damage Snow_Bunny did), I would be down right shocked if Shanba didn't flip Mafia if lynched.

[Kirbyoshi]

First off, to Budja, sorry about not answering you. I completely forgot you had asked me those things, with the 2 replacements and all.

Now, for the answers...

So does the Jester flip change anything here?

Not much. Jester didn't even cross my mind yesterday, but it's still a role scum would not know either, so for all Snow knew, SOG was town. Hence, Snow's hammer is still scummy.

Also could you explain how you agreed with me and then posted an opposing view.

Sorry, those were meant to be separate statements. I was happy with a SOG lynch as well, but it was too early to hammer. And like I said above, it matters very little to the issue at hand that SOG was Jester and not town, since scum wouldn't know the difference.

Why must one of them be scum?

I think I explained in the post you quoted why one of them must be scum, and since then I've made my decision on which one is, but I'll tell you anyway. It was mostly because of the actions of their predecessors, and Chibo's most recent posts really drive home why Shanba is also scummy, and therefore worthy of a vote, whilst EK has been acting pro-town since she's entered the game.

First I've heard of this. Why didn't you mention this yesterday.

Ok, first of all, you totally should have put a question mark on the end of that. Alright, now that my grammar OCD-ness is satisfied...Because it wasn't as scummy without the SOG flip. Agreeing with a Jester, even though it was good Jester play, still raises my eyebrows. However, I've never played on forums with a Jester before, so idk...

I am really getting the feeling Kirby is sitting on the sidelines of the EK, Shanba, Chibo debate ready to vote for the "scummiest".

I already voted for the scummiest: Shanba.

[ChiboSempai]

Can we get a vote count a la mod? lol

[Shanba]

Shanba, you're big post is practically trying to tell people how to play the game, or an analysis on common styles trying to metagame people in a general fashion. Your posts are so overly analytical for no apparent reason imo. That whole giant post was practically just a response to someone's opinion on a tie between two players shouldn't be seen as scummy right? Everyone's entitled to their own opinions and playstyles but it seems that everytime there is any more suspicion or disagreement with your posts you write even longer, more intricate posts it almost seems like your just trying to confuse people and get people thinking about other topics.

This is just bullshit.

My big post is not telling people how to play the game. It's laying out how I play the game. And overly analytical? What the hell does that even

mean

? If you can't follow my posts, then I'm sorry, but I'm afraid that's a problem with you and not me. I've never had anyone ever have that issue with me before.

And yes, when people disagree with me, I refute them.

I think I ought to explain my playing philosophy at this point. My goal is always to understand the "why" behind a scumtell. Whenever I see an action described as scummy, my first instinct is to ask why it's scummy. Why would scum do it? If that can be worked out, then the scumtell can be applied more accurately. This has led me to believe some things are scumtells which would likely be considered controversial by the wider community: in those cases, I lay down the logic of why I think it's scummy.

After reading that long post I almost forget why I even voted you. All I was thinking was trying to dissect your post and almost starting a side discussion about it, but this isn't the time nor place to do so. Elvis is also right that it's essentially a WIFOM situation.

And everyone else is either riding EK's coattails or referencing the hammer. I'd like everyone to have more suspicions than just me even if I do get lynched today, so that there's some room for some actual analysis. Top 2 scummiest players please, everyone.

Since you're suggesting most of us find you scummy, from a townie point of view, who is the other person you believe we should find most suspicious (if you can only pick one)?

Um, it's a fact that most of you find me scummy. I'm not suggesting anything.

As for who you should consider scummy... I pray this was some kind of sarcasm here.

You

should know

who

you consider scummy. My concern is that this day ends and the onyl thing you have to go on tomorrow is "well, everyone thought shanba was scummy. Except budja. So who's scum?"

EBWOP

Elaborating on this part further from my last post:

"Now Shanba comes in replacing her and has to rid this suspicion on him (since it seems most people were discontent especially with her hammer) and he's doing a very poor job of it imo, only proving my suspicions thus further. "

Not only is he not doing the best job of ridding the suspicion imo, but it feels that he is actively trying hard to rid this suspicion and push it onto others, why would he make this such a priority? By just being a legit town player, everyone else should be able to pick up on this and worry about a possibly mislynch. However, he has to actively fix his reputation for a reason... why? Because he's scum.

Why do I have it as a priority to catch scum?

I just re-read some more of his posts and found some even more things to be worrisome about... In Shanba's first post, right off the bat (though it is a catch-up post, but still...) he mentions suspicion on 5 different players. Then, when looking at all of his posts, especially considering he mentions how it is scummy to have connections with any other players, he strictly does not mention who he thinks ISN'T scum in any of his posts, and instead only mentions who he is suspicious of. This could easily just be his playstyle which is completely legitimate imo, but with how much he went into detailing the situations for covering other players, I get the feeling that he wants to drill the idea of no connections being a pro-town movement into everyone's minds then act specifically that way so everyone naturally believes he is town.

Isn't this almost exactly the opposite of what EK was accusing me of?

I don't need to lay out in detail why I think players are town. I'm not trying to convince anyone they're town. I am trying to convince people that the players I believe are scum are, indeed, scum. That's no less than any townie should do.

The more I read into his posts, even without that many (though you can continue from the damage Snow_Bunny did), I would be down right shocked if Shanba didn't flip Mafia if lynched.

The case against me is as follows:

Unspecified Snow_bunny scumminess
Snow_Bunny's hammer
I'm buddying up to chamber
I used a scumtell that EK and others disagree with
I've laid out too much detail on who I think is scum and not enough on who I think is town?

I have a question for you people: what did scum gain by snow_bunny's hammer?

[ZazieR]

Post 283

<snip>

That is a good point, I hadn't thought of that. However, it doesn't explain why semioldguy is still voting for Zazie and in fact pushing for his lynch for no good reason.

<snip>

Please elaborate on the part in which you say that that was the explanation you were looking for.

Why Josh and not somebody else?

SoG is going for my lynch.

I wanted an explanation for his action. An explanation is what I got.

Why Josh? I looked through and saw a minimal amount of content from Josh. Posts? Sure. Content? No.

And how do you know SoG is going for your lynch? You aren’t psychic, are you?

My question about the explanation from Budja, was mainly due to: "That was just the very explanation

I was looking for

."
Please elaborate on that.

Don't like your reason for voting Josh. You stated that he has posts, but no content. What do you ask from him: 5 posts. The right use of words would have been that you wouldn't move your vote until you would see content from him. Explain the choice of words you've used.
Also, I don't like how you're going for pressure votes.

Budja showed some good posts where it was shown that SoG was fighting for my lynch.

Dear SoG,

Can you please help me? When I thought I found the three scum in you, Pome and Manz, Nacho suddenly decided to act as a possible buddy of yours. Whom of the three is not your buddy?

Please respond asap

Zaz

You mind explaining why I'm acting as a scum buddy to SoG? Because I don't agree with a bandwagon that doesn't have a whole lot of thought put into it?

Looking at the opinion given at Post 257:
-You discuss his first vote against me. First of all, you're using your own impression of it. Eventhough SoG had already stated that it was for pressure.
Second, his second vote was the worst vote and you leave that one completely out of your analysis. And I ask once again, why is that?
-The other thing is shown in the paragraph about SoG's aggressiveness. Because as SoG stated before, he only focuses on his top two suspects or one and even then, he was mainly focusing on me at that time. Making the things you said there, untrue.

[ZazieR]

Not to me.
-You do tunnel
-You state that you only point out the scummy things of your top 2 suspects.
Making the last two statements invalid.

Surely you're not serious. You have been focused on ONE suspect this entire game, and you're saying someone else is tunneling? Forgive me if I'm missing something here, but the only scummy thing you actually pursued came from SoG.

Secondly, I fail how to see how the second bullet point is scummy. Your two major subjects are the two people who you have the most information on. So, in focusing on the two scummiest, you get a lot better read on someone, as opposed to flying all over the place and pouncing on scummy things about everyone. It doesn't mean your not noting it, but it does mean your keeping silent about it.

Only one suspect? Tell that to Josh. Or all those other players I've questioned their behaviour off.
Secondly, did I call the points scummy?

[ZazieR]

Ok, so I think I can give a more realistic representation of SOG's discussion with Zazie over not voting Socio than they can themselves...

I'm going to vote for anyone who votes for someone based on having an unreadable color.

I vote SOG for having a

readable

color.

SOG, you don't find that scummy?

No, it's perfectly OK, since he voted for the opposite reason I mentioned.

But it's still a vote based on color, which is in the same ballpark as what you mentioned.

But it's not the same, so I don't find it scummy.

But shouldn't you find it scummy, since it's still a color issue?

No.

Is this basically what SOG and Zazie mean by their arguments?

I hope this helps you both to stop arguing about this, and maybe team up to do some scumhunting

I was more interested in the "why". It seemed as if SoG didn't want the votes as he thought they were useless. The same applies to Socio's and GD's votes. But both didn't get mentioned.

And "team up"?

[ZazieR]

This is a bad wagon right now.

We need to run up a counter wagon to get some responses

.

Unvote; Vote: Pomegranate

Elaborate on the bolded

No.

It is not always pro-town to come forward with reasoning first. I'll elaborate after it happens. If you disagree with something that doesn't come with a reason, you should post your reason for why you think it would be bad to do that.

HoS: ZazieR

How would it not be pro-town to give reasons for why you think something? This game is built on reasoning, and if you're not willing to state it, it makes you look pretty scummy.

The difference between semioldguy and chamber is that SoG said "... come forward with reasoning

first."

chamber, on the other hand, wasn't going to explain. Ever.

I see the difference. Don't you?

And SoG was? Couldn't tell that as he refused to tell after all the times it was asked

[ZazieR]

Ok, so I think I can give a more realistic representation of SOG's discussion with Zazie over not voting Socio than they can themselves...

I'm going to vote for anyone who votes for someone based on having an unreadable color.

I vote SOG for having a

readable

color.

SOG, you don't find that scummy?

No, it's perfectly OK, since he voted for the opposite reason I mentioned.

But it's still a vote based on color, which is in the same ballpark as what you mentioned.

But it's not the same, so I don't find it scummy.

But shouldn't you find it scummy, since it's still a color issue?

No.

Is this basically what SOG and Zazie mean by their arguments?

I hope this helps you both to stop arguing about this, and maybe team up to do some scumhunting

I was more interested in the "why". It seemed as if SoG didn't want the votes as he thought they were useless. The same applies to Socio's and GD's votes. But both didn't get mentioned.

And "team up"?

Now with colour

[Kirbyoshi]

I have a question for you people: what did scum gain by snow_bunny's hammer?

You really need us to answer this? Ok...

Snow, unless she has some role-revealing role, would not have known that SOG was Jester. If she was scum, which most of us believe she was/you are, scum didn't really "gain" anything. Rather, they lost something they're glad to be rid of; a voter, who could assist in lynching them, and a vocal player (remembering they/y'all had no idea he wasn't scum), who could build up cases against them.

[ZazieR]

Unvote

as promised. But I still want more content.

@Snow Bunny:

1) To me, vote patterns (how much you vote) are null-tells. You can vote for one person because you find them the scummiest, or you can vote for multiple because you believe in pressure voting.

2) Did you read my bit on SoG's hypocrisy? If so, what do you think about it?

3) Not necessarily stretching. Pointing FoSes without votes down suggests a fear to have to explain a vote.

4) Self-preservation isn't scummy either. If you are a townie and are trying to avoid being lynched, defending yourself and starting a bandwagon against someone else is preventing a mislynch, which is pro-town.

You voted Josh for more content, but here you unote him, eventhough you want more content? Yep, needs some explanations.

And why did you respond before SoG did?

[Kirbyoshi]

Ok, so I think I can give a more realistic representation of SOG's discussion with Zazie over not voting Socio than they can themselves...

I'm going to vote for anyone who votes for someone based on having an unreadable color.

I vote SOG for having a

readable

color.

SOG, you don't find that scummy?

No, it's perfectly OK, since he voted for the opposite reason I mentioned.

But it's still a vote based on color, which is in the same ballpark as what you mentioned.

But it's not the same, so I don't find it scummy.

But shouldn't you find it scummy, since it's still a color issue?

No.

Is this basically what SOG and Zazie mean by their arguments?

I hope this helps you both to stop arguing about this, and maybe team up to do some scumhunting

I was more interested in the "why". It seemed as if SoG didn't want the votes as he thought they were useless. The same applies to Socio's and GD's votes. But both didn't get mentioned.

And "team up"?

Well, they had obv played together before, and therefore they now know each other's playstyle and could maybe complement each other's cases better than other players.

[ZazieR]

Sorry, I have been sick the past couple days, just caught up.

So SoG is at L-1?

Tell me SoG, what is your reasoning for voting Pomegranate? Make it a good one.

This was all you had to ask after your read?
Before the last few posts of the day, you were wondering why so many players were voting SoG. The reasons got stated, and you don't address them. You only ask SoG for the Pome vote. Why didn't you give a comment about the SoG case(s)?

[ZazieR]

I've read the thread, I know what's going on, but I want to hear in one concise post your specific reasoning for that vote, especially since the only reasoning next to your vote post is that you want a different wagon to start.

Did you see Post 287?

[ZazieR]

SoG I think you're trying too hard to push for a wagon on someone else. I don't think thats deserving tbh.

Vote: semioldguy

Please elaborate on the reason.

[ZazieR]

@Pome

Did you check up on Point 2 in Post 308?

[ZazieR]

I just realized I hammered SoG... Well, technically, it was ChiboSempai, as my vote was already on him (well, at least the intention was there.) Anyways, SoG was still scummy in front of my eyes.

Don't like how she's trying to blame Chibo.

[Shanba]

I have a question for you people: what did scum gain by snow_bunny's hammer?

You really need us to answer this? Ok...

Snow, unless she has some role-revealing role, would not have known that SOG was Jester. If she was scum, which most of us believe she was/you are, scum didn't really "gain" anything. Rather, they lost something they're glad to be rid of; a voter, who could assist in lynching them, and a vocal player (remembering they/y'all had no idea he wasn't scum), who could build up cases against them.

See, the more I think about it, the less I think this really holds. I firmly believe that by that point the semioldguy lynch was inevitable. If this is the case, then surely all the town lost was time. The scum gained, in essence, a slightly shorter day: an advantage, but not one that merits the risk snowbunny is taking by hammering.

[elvis_knits]

DAMMIT I was typing up my big readup post and pressed back to look at the last page and lost it.

REwrite...

Scummy:
Pome
*Generally does nothing, her posts amount to active lurking as she says nothing in them
*Scum list in post 209 was one big waffle of unhelpfullness
*She stays in RVS until post 109 when she unvotes but doesn't place a real vote. That type of post has a name. It's called "Most useless post ever."
*Then she doesn't place a vote until her big waffle scum list in 209 where she votes SoG. Which is not an impressive vote to me. It's not like voting SoG was going out on a limb.
*I disliked post 45 because she says kirby was "twisting her words" when it really looked to me like a typo to me even before kirby said it was a typo.

Budja
*Guy is on every bandwagon, and in a scummy way, like he's taking the easy way out and voting easy targets. Page 1 greendude racism wagon. Chamber hatewagon. SoG jesterwagon. He gets on these easy wagons without even doing any hard work or attacking.
*Also he said "null" on Pome's horrible waffle scumlist post.

Neutral/conflicted:
Shanba
*SB lurktastic then ISO's SoG to make vote. Like she wasn't reading the game, only ISOed SoG to make a case cause she wanted to vote him.
*SB hammer was bad, but I see now could have been accidental. Although trying to blame chibo is pretty scummy. I dislike the fact that SB ISOed SoG with the intent of voting him. That's the scummiest part of the whole thing (since the hammer was perhaps accidental).
*However, the fact that he said he didn't think Chibo was rolefishing last page, when IMO chibo was, and Shanba could have easily agreed to strengthen his case... seems like something scum would not do. It makes me rethink. I think that atleast some of the stuff flying at shanba is crap, which makes me reevaluate.

Zazie
*I had a town read on chamber and know him as a player. I have no problem with his playstyle and found him consistent.
*Some of the things zazie said I don't agree with, I wasn't particularly in agreement with his scumlist in post160.
*Zazie spearheaded the SoG wagon, which I guess could mean anything, but it did steer the town toward a non-scum lynch.
*Called the scumteam as Sog (no), Pome (I think yes), and manzcar (no)
*Harped on Joshlyman because he called his RVS vote "semi" random.
*I've played in a number of games with zazie recently and always get the uber-lurker zazie. I have seen him do the spamfest participation in other games but never experienced it until now. I don't understand why zazie is so different in some games -- zazie, can you explain why you either lurk to replacement or go into spam overdrive? I don't understand.

Chibo
*Fourth vote on the page 1 greendude racist bandwagon, unvotes when people call him a hypocrite. Nobody seemed to care that he put a fourth vote on while copying everyone's reason of "yellow too hard to read." This just struck me as opportunist newb scum.
*Pushed to lynch chamber rather than give replacement a chance, which I find scummy, but I got the feeling that he wanted to do it because he really thought that chamber was scum and knew the allignment carries over... not because of the policy lynch thing.
*I just generally get the feeling that he believes what he's saying and not trying to trump stuff up, even though I find myself disagreeing with him a lot. Maybe like he's just inexperienced?
*This is basically my gut does not agree with my brain on him, so I have him neutral.

Town
Sociopath
kirby
nacho - 257 was so right on it's not funny, sadly he backs off this quickly
greendude

My town people are not OMG-I'M-SO-SURE reads, and some not even for such specific reason. They are basically people who have not pinged my scumdar, or that I have a gut town read on them for some reason. If anyone wants me to elaborate, I can try.

[elvis_knits]

This may be useless speculation, but I'm wondering what people think...

Do people think scum or town are more likely to want to lynch the jester?

Do you think SoG was acting like a jester? I actually thought he was town for a long time (lol). Certain things he did I consider scummy, like not wanting policy lynches and then going for one on zazie. But otherwise I thought he sounded sort of reasonable, atleast in the earlier posts.

What was SoG's strategy?

(I guess what I am wondering is if it was his strategy to try to attack scum and elicit their attack that way, as a defense of themselves, but also of their buddies).

Perhaps we can't ever know any of this until endgame when we ask him, but it's just something I was thinking about, watching the dynamics of how his lynch went down.

If this is stupid, we don't want to waste too much time on it, but I just wanted to throw it out there in case it could be helpful.