California Trilogy: City of Angels - Off Stage (Game Over)

[Gaspar]

EDIT:

"Posting" vs "Scumminess" is not a linear curve -- ESPECIALLY not in the general case. Don't even try to pull this kind of bullshit with me.

This should read "Lurking" vs. "Scumminess," just to clear up any confusion. I was talking about posting frequency, but obviously didn't make that clear.

Also, both the last post and this post were made by Glork, obviously.

[hewitt]

If there's the choice on whether or not to keep me Off-Stage or On-Stage keep me Off if at all possible because there's a fucking lot that I have to say to certain players.

Scum..

You're number one of that list *expletive*.

I voted for the Crone because when I was On-Stage during Scene 1 although I was fairly certain we should follow Valentine the Off-Stage people were a lot more sure of it than I was. It always seems to me like the Off-Stagers know more than the On-Stagers. So when Talilan piped in with this pro-Crone (which was really random now that I've looked back at the conversation at the time) and the "don't trust/lynch Elmo", multi-paragraph post I figured it was clear to everybody Off-Stage to follow the Crone. That and once we got the green light I figured that meant we were clear and correct, which re-affirmed my belief that the Off-Stagers thought the Crone was the correct choice. So I voted the Crone.

[Gaspar]

Hewitt, did it EVER occur to you that this ENTIRE game, Ortolan has been taking his own personal opinions and presenting them as absolute fact? Ortolan even said

in the post which got deleted

"I would vote Crone." Not "everyone Off-Stage would vote Crone."

You're either scum with a terrabad excuse, or you are a complete fucking idiot.


Pardon my language.

[hewitt]

I honestly don't really care Gaspar. I got slammed repeatedly my first scene for not being as pro-whatever everybody Off-Stage is thinking and I told you guys that I don't give a fuck I'm going to follow the flow. It seemed to me that everybody thought the Crone was the choice, I only got the chance to read Talilan's post once but it seemed pretty clearly pro-Crone, anti-Elmo.

[Gaspar]

CKD, can you please explain the logic behind each person you chose to go On Camera for Scene Three, and the order in which you chose them?

[curiouskarmadog]

I changed it several times, but this was my last revision.

I added JellyLee in this list...I thought his ass was scum. I didnt want him off stage because i thought he would push to lynch me. I also thought Orbits was scum and didnt want the two together. I felt Orbits had to stay because he might be needed to get info to on stage.

Felt BEC was town, and hewitt I am back and forth on. Starkiss hasnt made a good decision since being in this game, but had too many people that needed to stay back to get content from so I had to pick someone. thok I felt was town, but needed to stay back.....I really didnt think the alternate would have to go much less me. My choices were mainly due to people who had not spent any time off stage.

1.) Bagel Eating Cowfrog
2.) Mr. JellyLee
3.) Starkiss
4.) hewitt
5.) Thok

and for the record...I would have picked Crone too (though not for the reasons of the others). my deduction was that crone was either good or bad, and the mother was neutral or good. I was leaning for mother because it was a safe, and it would demostrate if I or Elmo was lying (if it flipped bad). But once it was apparent that Elmo was going to be hung, I figured what was the point. and I felt that since Elmo was provided that mother wasnt a bad choice, then it was probably going to be neutral...I thought that Crone might actually be the good choice, but it was a gut gamble. However, when you started attacking me when you thought it was hammered (but before the reveal)...I knew it was a bad choice. and mother was the way to go.

[Mighty Orbots]

Now that brings up something I'd forgotten.

Why do people think that curiouskarmadog ended up on stage. It seems to me that it should be absolutely clear but apparently it isn't for everyone. He says he didn't put himself on his list. Does that change people's opinions at all? Why or why not?

For signals for the next scene do we need anything more complicated than:

Push the Button and end scene:
Picture: Push Button, Receive Bacon: http://farm1.static.flickr.com/207/5006 ... 65.jpg?v=0
Song: Fatboy Slim, "Because We Can": http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=GB&hl=e ... K3oA-Gg5-A

Don't Push the Button and end scene:
Picture: No Button: http://rlv.zcache.com/no_symbol_univers ... sj_400.jpg
Song: Patsy Cline, "Crazy": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-wJNpWg ... re=related

I'd actually just expect to give a green light/Closing Time for the scene but we might as well have the signals for choices ready.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[StarKiss]

pretty sure it's related to the fact BEC and MrBuddyLee died. Still, that doesn't explain a lot.

Who was the other that ended up on stage again?

~Dram~

[Talilan]

I'm going away tomorrow for 2 weeks and will leave the Talilan posting duties in ortolan's capable hands.

I'll leave you with a couple of thoughts before I go:

1. Lynch Gaspar

2. StarKiss is scum. This is a tally-gut special and comes with a money back guarantee.

Besos,
Hasta,
~Talitha

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

this is totally not an I agree with tali post.

tho it will look that way

I really like the glork post, his last big long post reeked and I didn't like his reaction to CKD's non-hammer hammer on Crone.

Why I voted crone: cuz i thought the scumbags would put the good choice with the ugly chick. Oops. I didn't even bother reading advocate info cuz um. I'm kinda dumb like that. plus lazy

did i mention super lazy

[Talilan]

ckd- I'm not entirely sure why you expected us to fire you.

Glorky- please explain how Mother was "so obviously the right choice". Please also explain how you were sure the information elmo (who you were sure was obv-scum) was providing was correct. I would like to hear who elvis suspects.

hewitt- it should have been obvious that our on-stage posting was accidental. What I posted was my own point of view intended for consideration by the other players off-stage. There was nothing to suggest it somehow represented the combined off-stage opinion. For a start I very clearly said I hadn't intended to post it off-stage straight after. And, from memory, there was nothing to suggest it implied for example that the majority of off-stage people also agreed with the Crone.

- ortolan

[Talilan]

Also, I PMed Mr. Grey to ask about the circumstances that potentially lead to ckd ending up on-stage. I asked "what happens if there are 4 people required for a scene, the director picks 5 and then two die, does the director automatically go on?" He said he couldn't answer.

[Gaspar]

Also, I PMed Mr. Grey to ask about the circumstances that potentially lead to ckd ending up on-stage. I asked "what happens if there are 4 people required for a scene, the director picks 5 and then two die, does the director automatically go on?" He said he couldn't answer.

I actually asked the same thing, hoping to possibly catch CKD in a lie. My disappointment with Mr. Grey's lack of answer is expressed in Post 393 of the On Camera thread.

Glorky- please explain how Mother was "so obviously the right choice". Please also explain how you were sure the information elmo (who you were sure was obv-scum) was providing was correct. I would like to hear who elvis suspects.

I've answered BOTH of these questions already, and I've answered the latter one at least three or four times. Go back and read it for yourself.

[Gaspar]

I would like to hear who elvis suspects.

You!

So Glork explained the rules to me and caught me up on some stuff, like the fact that KY Krew outtedhimself and that elmoyos was strongly implicated. I haven't talked to Glork since elmoyos flipped town, but I know he strongly expected elmoyos to flip scum.

I haven't read up on everything yet, but I just couldn't help coming in here to say that Talilan is fucking scummy.

Also Gaspar's "Mother was so obviously the right choice" stuff is still really scummy (in fact according to my diagram if Crone is bad then Mother was indeed the "good" choice, but he (should have) had no way of knowing this at the time.

This is a ridiculous argument. Glork argued for the right choice, and that's scummy? So we're scummy because we wanted to do something that was pro-town? That is so backwards it's not funny.

And also, I have made similar arguments when I am scum -- that "nobody could have known that townie was town unless they were scum who know everyone's allignments!!!11" That's how you shift blame off the people who argued for the mislynch, or in this case, the bad decision. That's how you blame the people who were actually right and arguing for the right thing. "Who could have actually figured out the right thing to do! OMG!"

It's a horribly scummy argument.

I will be posting more in the coming days as I get caught up. And I will be taking the reigns in a few days when Glork goes VLA.

~Elvis

[curiouskarmadog]

hey gaspar...you attacked me when you thought that I was hammering the crone.....because I didnt give enough people a chance to change the vote.

yet, have you said jack about DGB doing it?

[sottyrulez]

If there's the choice on whether or not to keep me Off-Stage or On-Stage keep me Off if at all possible because there's a fucking lot that I have to say to certain players.

Scum..

You're number one of that list *expletive*.

I voted for the Crone because when I was On-Stage during Scene 1 although I was fairly certain we should follow Valentine the Off-Stage people were a lot more sure of it than I was. It always seems to me like the Off-Stagers know more than the On-Stagers. So when Talilan piped in with this pro-Crone (which was really random now that I've looked back at the conversation at the time) and the "don't trust/lynch Elmo", multi-paragraph post I figured it was clear to everybody Off-Stage to follow the Crone. That and once we got the green light I figured that meant we were clear and correct, which re-affirmed my belief that the Off-Stagers thought the Crone was the correct choice. So I voted the Crone.

Why would the off stage people have more info on the puzzle than the on stage?

Now that brings up something I'd forgotten.

Why do people think that curiouskarmadog ended up on stage. It seems to me that it should be absolutely clear but apparently it isn't for everyone. He says he didn't put himself on his list. Does that change people's opinions at all? Why or why not?

He was the advocate wasn't he? He doesn't have the power to control that part of the on stage so I think the scum put him in there because people were suspicious of him. Likewise with elmo. They wanted us to doubt the info and pick the wrong choice which is what happened.

[sottyrulez]

Bah

-Sotty

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

For those asking rationalization of my vote on the decision, I think it's pretty much laid out on-camera. I didn't hold anything back.

Why would the off stage people have more info on the puzzle than the on stage?

How don't know how this "culture" came about, maybe is the nature of the pre-arranged signals, but all the on-camera/off-camera communication is centered on the off-camera people telling the on-camera people what to do.

I didn't question it because up to a point I was confused by the mechanics, then by apathy.

But really it's kind of dumb. Or is it the best we can come up with for the signals?

[hewitt]

Why would the off stage people have more info on the puzzle than the on stage?

I have no fucking idea. I have no fucking idea why during my first On-Stage everybody was so clearly for one option and D2 we were the same way. And what else am I supposed to expect when we get a green light immediately after we'd all been discussing picking the Crone. So I figured everybody was unanimous Off-Stage and On-Stage the majority wanted the Crone as well so I figured that was the correct choice.

[Mighty Orbots]

The Green Light/Closing Time signal from off stage is not meant to express any off stage preference for one choice over any others. It only means that the lynch has been completed (or possibly that those off stage have agreed that a no lynch is a better idea or something else) and that those on camera can proceed with their decision without worrying about ending things prematurely for those off stage.

Each scene there have been specific signals that indicate that those off stage think that one particular choice is better. I don't know how they might come about such a conclusion but we've got the ability to express it if they do. Unless one of them is given those on camera shouldn't assume that those off stage are favoring any particular choice.

If anyone has suggestions for additional or revised signals they should feel free to make them. I'm the one that's been setting them up because I think that having our means of communication clearly established is beneficial. We don't actually have to listen to what I have to say.

As for curiouskarmadog being on camera during scene two it seems that only sottyrulez sees what should in my opinion be clear to everyone.

The scum choose the advocates. curiouskarmadog was an advocate. Thus the scum chose curiouskarmadog as an advocate causing him to be on stage. It should have nothing to do with his list of choices and whether they ran out or not. I suppose I could see a few people not being clear on that but it felt like the majority of the people who expressed an opinion weren't understanding that mechanic which is discouraging. This isn't a particularly simple game but we've been given a good amount of information about how the structure works and we should be aware of that and using it to the best of our ability to do so.

For example, when I say "We're at +1 now and further, we now have explicit reason to believe that the number matters." that should mean something in particular to each of you.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

Maybe a noose, indicating that a lynch has taken place, would be less confusing than the green light.

I don't think off-camera players have any business telling on-camera players what to pick. Otherwise, how the heck are we supposed to find scum?

Maybe I make no sense. It's happened before.

[Mighty Orbots]

The green light is more versatile than just saying that a lynch has taken place. As we don't get information from the lynch until after the scene is over anyhow those on camera don't actually need to know when the lynch is done. What they do need to know is when those off stage are done with whatever they feel needs to be completed and are ready for those on camera to finish the scene.

Further, there should be no confusion about the green light. It's been explicitly stated what it means since the start. There's no reason that people can't keep track of what our prearranged signals are supposed to mean.

If those off camera have a reason to think that one option in particular is the right way to go for the scene there's no reason for them not convey that to those on camera. Those on camera can choose to follow the advice or not. I also don't see how those on camera knowing if those off stage think that one choice in particular is the correct one is going to stop us from finding scum.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Gaspar]

hey gaspar...you attacked me when you thought that I was hammering the crone.....because I didnt give enough people a chance to change the vote.

yet, have you said jack about DGB doing it?

1) I left work like five minutes after I made my post, and by the time I got back from work and dinner, the thread was closed and everything. I didn't have time to say anything. Now I'm back here and trying to read up on the thread while answering questions about current events.

2) DGB has done

plenty

of other things in this game to convince me that she is protown. I basically won't ever vote her, so telling her off to get a read on her reaction seems silly and pointless to me... and telling her off to get her to play smarter... well, let's just say I know how fruitless that can be.


-Glork

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

I also don't see how those on camera knowing if those off stage think that one choice in particular is the correct one is going to stop us from finding scum.

It lessens the on-camera players responsibility in the choices. If the collective of players off-camera says the on-camera players should vote George W Bush, that's a huge chunk of influence that cannot be easily discounted.

So if they're discussing voting Obama on-camera, and the off-camera players send the vote Bush signal, they'll all switch to Bush, and will wash their hands of responsibility. Then we'd need to look off-camera to check who is responsible, and I think that dilutes responsibility by making it less direct, and less immediate.

In other words, more complicated to find scum.

No? Am I wrong?

[Mighty Orbots]

Well, first off there really isn't any reason for those on camera to suddenly switch to whatever those off stage have said to do. I've seen the reasons that people in this game have been giving for thing and quite frankly, while I'll take the opinions of those off stage into consideration I'm not just going to assume that they're right if I've got a reason to think otherwise.

We've also got everything that went into the debate before the signal from off stage came. People should be staking out their opinions on the issue throughout the scene; in some ways that's the main thing that those on camera are there to do and avoiding that responsibility in the hopes that they'll get a signal from outside is scummy. If people are staking out positions and then make the switch just based on what they know those off stage think without being able to hear any of their reasons (and the signals certainly don't contain any reasons) then you've got scummy behavior.

In your analogy it'd be the voters who switched to Bush post-signal after having been saying that they were leaning Obama and giving reasons pre-signal as well as the voters who hadn't taken a stance at all but then were quick to vote push that would be scummy for reasons we wouldn't even have seen if it weren't for the signal being sent. Those that wash their hands because they got to agree with the off stage information shouldn't look any better because they've done it.

If you're not wrong you're at the very last oversimplifying.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh