. But I'm not so sure I like this. Do we really want to make the doc claim day one? If there is a doc, they can just make sure Neto gets lynched (voting him if they're not, advocate for his lynch if they already are) and only claim if the bandwagon on him dies. Wouldn't it be better to try to keep the doc hidden? Otherwise, with no other claims, they'd probably end up dead N1. (All of this, of course, is assuming that Neto is scum. If Neto is town, than it's really more of a null because even if every other player claims not doc there's still the chance this game has no doc and we can't exonerate him because of the lack of a counter-claim.)
"Don’t buy a dozen eggs if you just want a hardboiled egg. Don’t buy a head of lettuce if you just want a salad. Don’t buy eggs and lettuce if you want egg salad because those are not the right ingredients." -Julius Bloop
I think it's up to the doctor, if there is one that isn't Neto, if they think they should counterclaim, and that we probably shouldn't discuss this further.
I'm going to be V/LA alot of the week. Zach already knows this but I am going into hospital tomorrow for another session of rehab and wont be about much as I am in alot of pain after. And tuesday/wednesday/thursday i am helping a fried move.
KittyMo wrote:Nikanor, you've seen me play town. I tend to overexplain as town as well, imo. Do you agree?
Now that I've reread that game, no. You did quite a poor job at defending yourself in that game, actually. Mind trying to convince me or point me to where I should be looking in that game where you overdefended?
I recall going back and explaining the same thing several times. Want me to quote things?
Actually, if I recall correctly, the reason why you kept going back and explaining the same thing was because I kept bringing it up over and over. Haha.
Yeah, link me to posts if you have them.
Unvote.
I believe the correct move for a doctor counterclaim is at the beginning of day two. However, if Neto is scum, it's up to the real doctor (if we have one) to decide when to counterclaim, so long as he doesn't wait until lylo.
That said, I'm probably not the doctor. I'm not making any guarantees, though.
I actually like this alot. I get "end of day bussing" vibes from it. At the point you made this post, a Netopalis lynch looks highly unlikely, but you wanna get some good distancing in. On the plus side for you, i totally agree with your view on what we do with Maemuki. And i dont think a Maemuki-scum flip necessarily means YB is scum. As we've already discussed here, they are very close outside of the game, and i think that's what we got a taste of here.
I like how you slipped 'Nik is scum with Neto' in there without actually saying it.
hitogoroshi wrote:Ungh, the specter of 'out of game information' rears it's ugly head...as I said before, I'm really reluctant to lynch an active player with so many lurkers. That makes lurking a 'winning move', because of course someone who's posting content can have their posts dissected while people who are not posting never say anything scummy! For now, my vote's going to stay where it is. I know that a no-lynch is bad for town and because of the chaining you've mentioned we could get some information off of a Neto lynch, but to be quite frank I'm not currently comfortable lynching neto and giving scum a potential don't-talk pass. It will depend in part on what Haylen and Maemuki say, if anything. (and ck-replacement, if he/she is here before deadline.)
QFT. I wish my vote was on someone else, but I may be biased because I <3 Neto.
You have control of your vote....
Maemuki Post 516 wrote:Trying to write a wall of text on why Day 2 will be much harder if you guys lynch me. Half of it is done.
Day one better.
Netopalis Post 517 wrote:
Maemuki wrote:
Trying to write a wall of text on why Day 2 will be much harder if you guys lynch me. Half of it is done.
Well, that settles it. Nothing would please me more than having fewer walls and more relevant discussion.
Unvote, vote: Maemuki
Seriously? The promise of a wall-of-text is what gets you to move your vote? For all you know she could come out with great points and it turn out to be useful. But to shout her down before she posts is ridiculous.
I find myself agreeing with what BM posted back in 519, however the doc claim makes me think twice about a possible Neto lynch. Unless there is a counter claim or it's a deadline situation, I won't be voting for him today.
Posts 487, 488, 490: I kind of don't like this quick pileup. I'm getting a bad gut vibes here. If Mae flips town I'll start suspecting you three. The whole lynching a lurker both produced mixed results for me since I have experience with a town-flip and a scum-flip from that.
Specifically with 488: YB you said you had more to say. It's been a couple of days now with deadline looming. What did you have to say.
@Neto
Why didn't you comment about Jason's 485.
@BM
498: Interesting theory, except its super WIFOMic. I think you are basing this on another meta call in another game you me and Nik are involved in. If you want to test this do it tomorrow, since its post-claim and all. This can either be deep meta reading or just sowing distrust among the town.
IGMEOY: BM
526: SCUMDAR ALERT! Asking people to say not doctor is equivalent to people saying they are if they are. Stop narrowing down doc suspects. This reeks of scuminess since you are leading soft claims left right and center with that statement.
DTM wrote:526: SCUMDAR ALERT! Asking people to say not doctor is equivalent to people saying they are if they are. Stop narrowing down doc suspects. This reeks of scuminess since you are leading soft claims left right and center with that statement.
Erm, he's looking for a doctor counterclaim. What else do you want him to do?
Unvote Neto now. Meta call in Mafia Discussion suggests: He is disgruntled town then scum
On the topic of Neto, I have been pretty surprised to see what has been developing. At the start of this bandwagon, the bulk of the case against him seems to be that he thinks I'm town. This makes him scum how? Maybe I am subconsciously biased by the fact that Neto has been defending me, but I just don't see how this is scummy. The whole Neto wagon sees pretty weak.
However, the doctor claim is giving me pause. As BM points out, it is the scum claim for D1. Also, Neto, it seemed like you rolled over very easily when BM started bugging you about claiming. If you are town, and have such an important role, why did you capitulate so easily?
Anyway, onto my explanation about the vote change.
The biggest reason for my vote change was a decreased suspicion of BM. I had been thinking about what BM said regarding consistency, and my assertion that the wiki was right...and what he said made sense. (@BM: I saw your most recent response, and have a few more things to say about that, but its pretty much off topic now for this game so can we chat after the game in PMs about the issue?) Also, I did meta reading on BM, and while I still have issues with how he was attacking CSL/Mae, I am less convinced than I was that this means BM is scum. It still rubs me the wrong way, but now I see more what people were saying about this just being his playstyle.
So, prior to this, BM was my top suspect, and Mae and CK were tied for second. Just by process of elimination, this pushes Mae and CK to the top of the list. And since CK is in the process of being replaced, and I don't like to lynch people who aren't present in the game, this makes Mae the optimal choice among those three.
I acknowledge that the case against Mae isn't airtight, but it is a very reasonable one. I have been assured by players in here that BM has a good nose for scum, and after the whole proxy-vote thing, she was his top pick for scum. And her behavior at that point was odd -- perhaps BM's gut reaction was a correct one. Much more problematic is her interactions with CSL. She was at the center of the whole CSL-Mae-BM controversy, yet seemed completely at ease with letting CSL take all of the heat. Also, she seemed annoyed with CSL for defending her, like she didn't want attention drawn to herself. This seems consistent with scum behavior. Combined with her lurking, I think a Mae lynch for today would be a good idea.
Also, lynching Mae helps to resolve the problem of this (CSL/YB) player slot. It has occurred to me that as things stand, it would be horrible for town if I was still around during a LYLO situation. From the rest of town's POV (not mine, so no attempting to twist my hypothetical situations into anything they are not), there can be five options for the CSL/YB and Mae situation:
1.) Mae is town, YB/CSL is town, and are not paired in any way
2.) Mae is town, YB/CSL is town, and are somehow paired (ie Masons)
3.) Mae is town, YB/CSL is scum
4.) Mae is scum, YB/CSL is town
5.) Mae is scum, YB/CSL is scum
Since I already told you that #2 is not the case we can rule this out. Likewise, option 3 is extremely unlikely - scum tend to want to keep their head down, so this isn't the smartest move. The only possible scum motivation I can think of for CSL to stick his neck out so far for a townie is if he was trying to run some gambit where he could argue just what I said -- it would be a stupid thing for a scum to do. But that doesn't seem consistent with CSL's style. He is not a sophisticated player, and I doubt he would attempt such a thing. So I think the rest of town can safely say that, while this option is possible, it is improbable.
So, the alignment options (as far as the rest of town is concerned) are as follows:
1.) Mae is town, YB/CSL is town, and are not paired in any way
4.) Mae is scum, YB/CSL is town
5.) Mae is scum, YB/CSL is scum
and the improbable (but included for completeness)
3.) Mae is town, YB/CSL is scum
So, in the case that we lynch Mae, and she pops scum, town should lynch me. From my pov, I know this is a mislynch, but with CSL's budding behavior to Mae, this slot is simply to dangerous to keep around for town (think LYLO). Despite the mislynch, town is still 1 for 2 on scum, and has eliminated a dangerous slot, so its a pretty good position.
In the unlikely event that Mae flips town, this eliminates a good portion of the case against this slot (not all -- as the meta Sotty mentioned is still valid, and option 3 is still unlikely but technically possible).
Either way, lynching Mae does a lot to resolve what has been a pretty central issue on D1.
As for other scummy people, outside of Mae, CK, and BM (in that order) there is a person who have been seeming a little "off" to me - Nikanor. This is based solely on meta from an ongoing game he and I were both in (but we are both dead at this point). He was town in that game, and I feel his playstyle is somewhat different in this game. I think he is being more quiet/participating in scum hunting less. Nothing huge...but worth noting.
"Someone is playing with my mind, with my little gray cells. " - Hercule Poirot
YB wrote:As for other scummy people, outside of Mae, CK, and BM (in that order) there is a person who have been seeming a little "off" to me - Nikanor. This is based solely on meta from an ongoing game he and I were both in (but we are both dead at this point). He was town in that game, and I feel his playstyle is somewhat different in this game. I think he is being more quiet/participating in scum hunting less. Nothing huge...but worth noting.
It's because I've been lurking through a good portion of this game.
You can take a look at my meta, if you'd like. I've only flipped scum in three games - one of them is ongoing, but I was obvscum since day one, one of them I didn't even really get a chance to play, and one of them I replaced in as scum and immediately jumped on every bandwagon that formed.
I'm actually pretty bad at playing scum. If I were scum in this game, you'd know it.
YB: To answer your question, I capitulated because I'm honestly tired of being bullied by BM, Jason and Nikanor. There are only so many ways to say "I don't think YB should have to answer for CSL's actions", and it seems that they're going to continue to harass whoever their current target is - you, me, whoever. I capitulated because this game is no longer fun to me, and isn't that what this whole site is supposed to be about? I probably should have asked for a replacement a few pages ago, but I really do hate to quit....At least this way, I can hopefully prevent the town from making a serious mistake today.
My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
Temporarily retiring following the end of my current obligations.
Appeal to emotion is slightly annoying, don't you think?
@Netopalis: Show me where I was 'bullying' and 'harass'-ing you. Then I might be inclined to fall for your AtE.
Deadline is just under 2 days away. I will give notice at about the 24 hour mark and will try to post more frequent notices from there as time allows. When the deadline passes, you will have till I get to the thread before the day officially ends.
@Nik
1.BM's "not doctor" statement is forcing the doctor to claim when he should under his own accord. If the town did follow suite, it's basically outing the doctor when he doesn't want to. You stated that:
Nik wrote: I believe the correct move for a doctor counterclaim is at the beginning of day two. However, if Neto is scum, it's up to the real doctor (if we have one) to decide when to counterclaim, so long as he doesn't wait until lylo.
You can seriously regard this action has heavy role fishing since the doctor would have no choice but to claim if the above situation occured. The best way to test the claim if he's unCCed is to deal with it on day 2. You out of all people should know this with your above statement.
2. Its slightly more gut then anything. The point of Neto's topic just read as frustration towards BM's play style. If you consider his actions, he demonstrates this consistently. Unless BM nailed the scum team as YB, Neto and Mae, (and maybe you) I don't see why he would rant about it.
But for now without a CC and a night to test this claim, best focus on other issues.
@Town
I just noticed. Mae is questioning/attacking whole outside information that BM and Haylen supposedly in 512. Such an odd contradiction (questions whether there is rule breakage going on). :<
I capitulated because I'm honestly tired of being bullied by BM, Jason and Nikanor.
EXCUSE ME? Bullying? please show me where I am bullying anyone. This is a BS accusation and nothing but a complete appeal to emotion. In fact I don't think I have seen ANY bullying in this game.
DTM wrote:You can seriously regard this action has heavy role fishing since the doctor would have no choice but to claim if the above situation occured. The best way to test the claim if he's unCCed is to deal with it on day 2. You out of all people should know this with your above statement.
Other people have different opinions. I can understand that. He thinks a doc should CC immediately, I think a doc should CC tomorrow. He's not scummy for having a different opinion.
Okay I am happy with my Yellowbunny vote at this point. It's almost as if she knows Mea will flip town and wants to use that to clear her, even floating the idea of her being the lynch the next day if Mea flips scum. She seems to be on the Mea wagon because it is not her wagon, unless you have some
real
suspicions of Mea you would like to voice Yellow? Because all I got out of your 535 was that we should lynch Mea to figure out what alignment you are. I would rather lynch you to see that.
No but asking the rest of the town if they aren't doctor is scummy. It's like putting a giant sign over someone if everyone else but doctor claimed not doctor. If these soft claims are true, BM just narrowed down the NK pool for the real doctor if Neto is scum.
Sotty, you need to justify some of your above statements.
Sotty wrote:
It's almost as if she knows Mea will flip town and wants to use that to clear her, even floating the idea of her being the lynch the next day if Mea flips scum.
I explained my logic for stating that why town would consider a CSL/YB-scum, Mae-town combo is improbable, but the basis of your quoted statement is that very combination. Explain to me how a scum CSL defending a town Mae makes ANY KIND OF SENSE AT ALL. I don't know, maybe I'm missing something, but atm your assertion seems illogical.
Sotty wrote:
She seems to be on the Mea wagon because it is not her wagon, unless you have some real suspicions of Mea you would like to voice Yellow? Because all I got out of your 535 was that we should lynch Mea to figure out what alignment you are. I would rather lynch you to see that.
If that is all you got out of the post, then you missed a big chunk of explanation and should reread it. I have three paragraphs dedicated to why I moved my vote from BM to Mae, and NONE of them have anything to do with figuring out my alignment.
"Someone is playing with my mind, with my little gray cells. " - Hercule Poirot
Best deadline lynch I can think of.
@Jason: What do you think of Netopalis's doc claim?
Its very interesting, but all the asking people to claim not doc on top of Nets claim could be a trap to lure out the real doc, scum sacrificing himself to out the doc maybe a fair trade in their eyes. They lose one person but take out a powerful town role.
It seems Doc or Cop is a standard claim in any game on day 1 if pressured. I am not fully sure I buy it hence the reason my vote is on him still.
yellowbunny Post 547 wrote:I explained my logic for stating that why town would consider a CSL/YB-scum, Mae-town combo is improbable, but the basis of your quoted statement is that very combination. Explain to me how a scum CSL defending a town Mae makes ANY KIND OF SENSE AT ALL. I don't know, maybe I'm missing something, but atm your assertion seems illogical.
I don't see why Mea town you scum combo is so improbable. That's the part that doesn't make sense to me. Why wouldn't hyposcum CSL defend a townie he thought there was a weak case on? In this case he is clearly looking for town points if Mea ever flips townie. Plus with BM being BM maybe CSL really thought the Mea wagon would take off. You say all this is improbable, I don't agree.
yellowbunny Post 547 wrote:If that is all you got out of the post, then you missed a big chunk of explanation and should reread it. I have three paragraphs dedicated to why I moved my vote from BM to Mae, and NONE of them have anything to do with figuring out my alignment.
I was reading in between the lines because that is how your post felt to me. I just can't shake my unease about CSL and your whole “if Mea flips town I look better” part really rubs me the wrong way. If Mea was this scummy to you before, why were you focused on BM? It's like you just decided to drop the BM suspicion and then agree with his inital conclusion on Mea.
