Mini 847 Murder in Zachtown (Game over!)

[Netopalis]

Ok, fine. Sorry, I was hoping you could tell me which questions in particular you were so nervous about. Since you're so desperate for my answers, though...


1) Battle Mage seems to think that he can simply put a vote on someone without reason and expect them to claim. Is this scummy, or is it merely meta? If it is meta, how should we interpret that in-game?

I've answered my feelings regarding BM a number of times. I find him supremely ineffective and distracting to the town.


2) There were several players who seemed willing to proxy their votes based on a joke. This seems rather reckless to me, but what are your takes on that?

Answered in question - I chalk it up to silliness rather than scumminess. Still, not a good play.

3) Does the note from the mod and BM's response imply anything about his role? It seemed odd when I first read it.

Since BM dropped the whole proxy vote thing, I guess not. I thought originally it might have had something to do with his role, but I was clearly wrong.

4) What is your general playstyle and meta, since it seems to be rather important in this game?

In general, I try to watch before posting....I like seeing a clear, logical progression of games with every player contributing, but without the mastin-posting that we've been seeing in this game. I refuse to make those posts because I find that generally the same thing can be said in a shorter post. I also take a number of measures to try to separate idiocy from scumminess - I think that a lot of mislynches are caused by well-meaning townies who lynch bad players because they take their bad play to mean scumminess.


Hope that helps...I thought I had answered all of those in other posts - I guess I did, with the exception of #4.

As for my supposed "wishy-washiness" on YB, it wasn't so much that as me caving to a barrage of attacks on her and realizing that I don't seem to be getting anywhere. You seem to be rather relentless, Jason - what is it exactly that has made you so dead-set against me and YB?

Also: What do you expect me to do in regards to the other game with CSL? I can't link you to it, as that is against the rules and I don't want to be modkilled.

[Zachrulez]

16th vote count of day 1:

Yellowbunny - 3 (DTMaster, Sotty7, Battle Mage)
Battle Mage - 2 (Netopolis, Yellowbunny)
Kittymo - 2 (Haylen, Nikanor)
Hitogoroshi - 1 (Maemuki)
Nikanor - 1 (ckool5000)
Netopolis -1 (jasonT1981)

Not voting (hitogoroshi, KittyMo)

With 12 alive it's 7 to lynch.

If I made any mistakes, let me know asap.

Deadline is September 30th at 9pm central. No further extension will be granted.

Still looking for a replacement for ckool5000

[DTMaster]

Neto 465: Why? If you believe she is townie why are you so complacent with her lynch. Who would you rather go for?

I find it scummy that you are so complacent with the direction against YB when you strongly disagree with us. I also find it scummy that you aren't scum hunting more suspects with your recent posts when addressing this.

EDIT: 471: Why aren't you doing the questioning? Why aren't you taking a more proactive approach to scum hunting when you want to contribute to scum hunting? You are very passive here and I dislike this.

FoS: Neto

YB

472: Partially, but the theory you put out isn't helpful in any reasoning because white knighting makes no sense unless you are him. I would prefer the answer: "I don't know" then the whole he's trying to protect someone instead of your theory since it says: There is a link because CSL chose to defend Mae because he wanted to protect her. You try to discount there is no reason for it, but you still establish that link.

It also doesn't clear the fact that you are tunneling on BM with more personal attacks then actually trying find reasons he is scummy.

Also I find it fishy that you want me to respond before you choose your top scum list. That greatly creates confirmation bias and give you more chances to "follow the bandwagon".

HoS: YB

for withholding a scum list when I requested it.

You can change it after your questions are answered, but as of now I want something.

@Townies
Some people are awfully quiet here. What are your thoughts, Haylen, BM, Nik? If I miss someone, then point it out since those are the people I can think of right now.

[DTMaster]

EBWOP: It shouldn't be strongly disagree I guess. It's "too strong of an" adjective. So It should just read as: disagree with us.

[Netopalis]

DT, I am not complacent with you guys lynching YB - I'm simply tired of explaining my reasoning again and again as to why I don't think she should be lynched today. I've made 6 posts reiterating the fact that I don't find YB's play to be scummy, nor do I find it a good policy to lynch her for CSL's play. I've been beaten down into submission . Do as you want, but I'm not voting for her. Savvy?

As for why I've not been doing more scumhunting, it's mostly because I kept getting shouted down by BM and company. I've become increasingly frustrated at having to ask people for reasons for their actions and trying to point out logical inconsistencies that I'm honestly at my wits end over this game. I'm very close to asking to be replaced just so that I can find a game that has a bit more sanity to it.

[DTMaster]

@Neto
1. Being on the offensive to scum hunt doesn't just include defending people and pointing out inconsistencies, that's just passive action. It's all based on reactions here. You can't say BM is drowning you out right now since his last post was 3 days ago either. Saying you are frustrated just plain poor play and scummy.

It makes me think you want to stay centered around the current circle when you could perfectly draw a new line of questioning to get us out of here.

You saying that you are frustrated and unwilling to take the initiative to address someone is very anti-town play laced with scumminess. Threatening to replace out is anti-town. Not contributing to new debate and complaining that other people are keeping you from scum hunting is scummy in itself.

2. Also I addressed actions that YB did herself, it's not CSL centric. Why are aren't you attacking those if YB is townie here. I pointed out a few things that YB did that doesn't seem townish to me, which contributes to the whole package. You have nothing to say about that?

Unvote

Vote: Neko

I will count that under the assumption that it is a netopolis vote.

[DTMaster]

Whoops lol. I don't understand why I typed Neko. >>;;; Yeah its Netopalis. Thanks though.

[Netopalis]

Trust me, I would much rather move on to any other mode of play than the one we've been on. Since you seem to have such faith in my analysis doing something else, I guess I can try again.


Nikanor - Largely lurking in the last few days and not much content when they were here. Possible scum.

ckool5000 - Largely lurking in the last few days and not much content when they were here. Possible scum. However, he's being replaced...

Sotty7 - Early on, we didn't see much content from him, and that does make him somewhat suspicious. He has improved, however.

Haylen - Her odd play does make her a bit suspect, but for some odd reason, I get a town feel from her. I really don't know why, her actions are probably amongst the more suspicious ones on here...but my gut says town.

Yellowbunny - Already posted my thoughts. I think that the case against her is largely constructed from whole cloth and a hatred for CSL's style of play. Some find her defense of CSL's play to be scummy, others keep asking her to explain his actions. She's stuck in a catch 22.

Maemuki - Mae is perhaps the second scummiest one outside of BM and Jason, in my opinion, because of her wishy-washy play. That being said, I could understand her actions as town, too - although I wouldn't agree with them.

Battle Mage - I've already amply posted my feelings, but I would like to ask his supporters this: We've been through 20 pages of discussion, 5 of it posted by BM. Many of you seem to think that he is this amazing scumhunter, but answer me this: where are we now? We're at page 20, nearing a deadline and we *still* don't have a freaking clue as to what we're doing. His play, even if he is town, is inherrently detrimental to the town.

jasonT1981 - I find his rather spurious attacks over the last few days to be suspect. Especially his very, very odd analysis of the whole "sorry to ask" thing. It's a common enough phrase. Do you really need to jump on it like that? It seems as if he's a scum who's trying to lynch just about anybody right now.

KittyMo - Kitty is generically town, but we haven't seen a whole lot from her that would push her in either direction.

hitogoroshi - I find Hito to be one of the stronger town calls in this game. His actions, to me, seem very constructive.

DTMaster - Which leaves you. I'm honestly not sure how to read you - I'll call it town for now, but I do find you to be somewhat suspicious for your continuous attacks over the last few days. That's not an OMGUS, it's an analysis of the way that you and Jason have just started attacking YB and then me over the last few days. Also, the two of you do seem rather close...

[Sotty7]

And I have no idea if CSL was/is scum in the other game (He asked to be replaced, then took that request back). All I'm saying is that his gameplay was similar - he COULD be scum in both, but it is statistically unlikely. My point is that his actions may not be indicative of a scum PM, just indicative of bad play.

Okay, I didn't realize it was an ongoing game. We shouldn't be talking about it.

Ok, fine. Sorry, I was hoping you could tell me which questions in particular you were so nervous about. Since you're so desperate for my answers, though...

You do realize Jason and myself are two different people right? I wasn't nervous about any questions, I wanted you to take some ownership of the ones you asked everyone. Not only did you ignore me twice when I asked about them but you did nothing with any of the answer players offered up. At this point I believe you just threw those questions out there to make it look like you were doing some scum hunting, almost like a distraction.

As for why I've not been doing more scumhunting, it's mostly because I kept getting shouted down by BM and company. I've become increasingly frustrated at having to ask people for reasons for their actions and trying to point out logical inconsistencies that I'm honestly at my wits end over this game. I'm very close to asking to be replaced just so that I can find a game that has a bit more sanity to it.

Ridiculous.

BM and “company” (who is the company exactly?) shout down everyone they disagree with. That's the whole point of this game. We aren't all going to agree for one reason or another. Asking people for reasons is another part of this game we call mafia. You are basically complaining because you have to pay the game? How does that even work.

jasonT1981 - I find his rather spurious attacks over the last few days to be suspect. Especially his very, very odd analysis of the whole "sorry to ask" thing. It's a common enough phrase. Do you really need to jump on it like that? It seems as if he's a scum who's trying to lynch just about anybody right now.

Err, you realize that BM analyzed the sorry to ask thing right? You have this point wrong.

Mod: We need some prods. Haylen, BM, KittyMo maybe. Those are just off the top of my head.

[jasonT1981]

Sotty7 - Early on, we didn't see much content from him, and that does make him somewhat suspicious. He has improved, however.

This comment makes me LOL so damn much....

jasonT1981 - I find his rather spurious attacks over the last few days to be suspect. Especially his very, very odd analysis of the whole "sorry to ask" thing. It's a common enough phrase. Do you really need to jump on it like that? It seems as if he's a scum who's trying to lynch just about anybody right now.

Ummm, I was the one who said 'sorry to ask' I didn't analyze it.... that was BM. if this whole thing is an attempt to make your attacker (me) look bad, . Your accusations are laughable especially since you are completly wrong and have it the wrong way around. and especially since you say I am doing things I did not.

[jasonT1981]

Yellowbunny - Already posted my thoughts. I think that the case against her is largely constructed from whole cloth and a hatred for CSL's style of play. Some find her defense of CSL's play to be scummy, others keep asking her to explain his actions. She's stuck in a catch 22.

Some find her defense scummy while others ask her to explain his actions?

how is this a catch 22?

[Haylen]

I'm here.

I better

V/LA til Monday

I'm trying to move out and start a new job ect all in the space of a few days. I will be continuing to post occassionally in the newbie game I'm ICing though, I'm not sure if anybody will understand why that is but it involves ICing being a massive responsibility and the newbies in my game can't really afford to have their IC missing for days.

[hitogoroshi]

Four days until deadline. As much as I don't just want to "lynch a lurker", the fact is we have Nik, Hayl, Ck-replacement, Mae, and BM, all who haven't contributed anything significant in quite a while, and if we assiduously pick an

active player

only to lynch we turn not posting into a winning strategy.

I don't know if any of you have scum reads strong enough that you have an active player you're certain is scum, but I certainly don't, and in this odd situation of no-activity we have to start thinking about how we're gonna pick our lynch.

Personally, I'm in favor of Maemuki. If you sort all posts by Maemuki, she's done less than a page, NONE of which have been content posts. And of course there's:

@ Town,

School came up, and my legs (and brain) aren't working very well. D: Which sucks.
Post coming up tonight, and this time, string me up if I don't make it.

That was September 22nd.

Vote:Maemuki

[yellowbunny]

^Completely agree with this.

I have like 5 minutes before I run out the door (got a wedding to go to, and then more grading tomorrow /sigh...) so I thought I'd see if anything new happened in my games, and I saw Hito beat me to the punch line. This was going to be the thrust of my "Top Most Scummy Player" list which I will post asap (mb tonight after the wedding, most likely sometime tomorrow). So, for now:

unvote; vote: Mae

and expect an explanation about this, along with why I'm less suspicious of BM and my thoughts on a few other players (as was requested) in the near future.

[KittyMo]

I hereby swear to have posted content by the end of the day today (my time).

[KittyMo]

Okay. I'm not in the mood for huge content, so if you have specific questions for me, please let me know and I'll answer them.

Main Things Worth Noting:

Maemuki - Her posts used to scream active-lurker scum and now the lack of posts screams lurker scum. I also noticed her name pop up on the Who's Online list about 2 hours ago, and find it interesting that we've heard nothing from her.

Haylen - She's active lurking. She voted for me 14 days ago for misrepresenting her (I disagree, but that's not important here), and has not changed her vote, or posted much since, and what she has posted hasn't been content. I'm really interested to hear her thoughts on the game.

Nikanor - Since the deadline's nearing, I'd like to know who he finds suspicious, since he hasn't really stated that lately.

ckool5000 - Needs replacement now. I can see him pretty easily as newbie-town or newbie-scum, so I think it's best to just wait and see how his replacement acts.

vote: Maemuki

- she apparently needs more pressure to bother posting here.

[Nikanor]

Nikanor, you've seen me play town. I tend to overexplain as town as well, imo. Do you agree?

Now that I've reread that game, no. You did quite a poor job at defending yourself in that game, actually. Mind trying to convince me or point me to where I should be looking in that game where you overdefended?

Post nothing but nonsense
refuse to scum hunt

replace out as scum

YB..

the similarities here are identical to Sottys game.

The italics in particular appear to be a slip implying knowledge of alignment.
This will be brought up again if YB ever flips scum, and ignored if YB flips town.

I fail to see how my statement about CSL's actions can be regarded a question as no such question was asked. I was merely making a factual comment based on CSL's scum meta that has been backed up by other players in this game

This looks like a really scummy attempt to throw some dirt on YB.

No...but I don't see *her* actions as scummy and I don't see people attacking her for *her* actions - I see people attacking her for CSL's actions which were indeed scummy.

If YB flips scum, Neto is very likely scum as well, due to this post.

All I'm saying is that his gameplay was similar - he COULD be scum in both, but it is statistically unlikely.

Wow, that's the first time I've ever seen someone use the gambler's fallacy to defend someone.
Hopefully it will be the last.

Unvote. Vote: Netopalis.

I'm not going to vote for Maemuki simply because I feel as if we can learn more from her if we let her live for the moment. As it is now, the only thing we'll know if she flips scum is that YB would be very likely scum. I feel as if we should get more from that playerspot before eliminating it.

[Netopalis]

Nikanor, my point wasn't gambler's fallacy, my point was that this seems to be CSL's mode of play and not unusual behavior from him. Also, care to explain how my defense of YB makes me scummy? It seems to me that everyone is simply making an ad hominem attack against her without analyzing her actions too much...There have been a few posts with critiques of her stuff, but for the most part I haven't found any of it to be particularly useful.

Due to the deadline, I guess I'd be OK with a Maemuki lynch....She has been acting oddly scummy and particularly unhelpful. That being said, I'm going to withhold my vote until a bit closer to the deadline, just because I want a few other reactions first.

[jasonT1981]

Post nothing but nonsense
refuse to scum hunt

replace out as scum

YB..

the similarities here are identical to Sottys game.

The italics in particular appear to be a slip implying knowledge of alignment.

I was talking about him replacing out as scum in the last game, and showing how his actions where true to his scum meta and could be used in this game.

I fail to see how my statement about CSL's actions can be regarded a question as no such question was asked. I was merely making a factual comment based on CSL's scum meta that has been backed up by other players in this game

This looks like a really scummy attempt to throw some dirt on YB.

no, quite simply saying that it was not a question to him and mearly a statement others can back up.

[Sotty7]

Due to the deadline, I guess I'd be OK with a Maemuki lynch....She has been acting oddly scummy and particularly unhelpful. That being said, I'm going to withhold my vote until a bit closer to the deadline, just because I want a few other reactions first.

If there was no deadline, who would you be pushing us to lynch?

I like the Maemuki wagon that has built up over the last few posts. She has been lurking and seems happy enough to allow yellowbunny to take all the CSL heat even though she was a big part of that whole exchange. Still I really want to see Yellowbunny's detailed reasons for her switch over. the hop looks a tad opportunistic to me. Vote stays for now.

[Netopalis]

Sotty: Probably BM, if for no other reason than the fact that I feel that he should be held to the same standard of logic as all other players. If not him, then Nikanor is actually starting to look good in a sense - she's been lurking for a while and now seems to be focused on what I feel are rather spurious attacks (the ones on myself and Kitty).

[Battle Mage]

just weighing in to say, i dont support the current wagon on Maemuki. Due to information from outside of the game, that has been brought to my attention recently, i think applying standard scumtells to Maemuki is a bad idea. I also feel that if anyone will be able to give an accurate read on Maemuki, it is Haylen. So, we need to hear from her.

I'm catching up now, but without the go-ahead from Haylen, i wont be voting Maemuki at deadline (whenever that is).

BM

[KittyMo]

Nikanor, you've seen me play town. I tend to overexplain as town as well, imo. Do you agree?

Now that I've reread that game, no. You did quite a poor job at defending yourself in that game, actually. Mind trying to convince me or point me to where I should be looking in that game where you overdefended?

I recall going back and explaining the same thing several times. Want me to quote things?

[Battle Mage]

Unvote. Vote: Netopalis.

I'm not going to vote for Maemuki simply because I feel as if we can learn more from her if we let her live for the moment. As it is now, the only thing we'll know if she flips scum is that YB would be very likely scum. I feel as if we should get more from that playerspot before eliminating it.

I actually like this alot. I get "end of day bussing" vibes from it. At the point you made this post, a Netopalis lynch looks highly unlikely, but you wanna get some good distancing in. On the plus side for you, i totally agree with your view on what we do with Maemuki. And i dont think a Maemuki-scum flip necessarily means YB is scum. As we've already discussed here, they are very close outside of the game, and i think that's what we got a taste of here.

I can also sympathise with a Netopalis vote. He isn't likely to help much, and if me and him both stay alive for any duration in the game, it's likely to cause countless problems if he is town. I could well see him as scum.

Unvote, Vote: Netopalis

BM

[Battle Mage]

Nikanor, you've seen me play town. I tend to overexplain as town as well, imo. Do you agree?

Now that I've reread that game, no. You did quite a poor job at defending yourself in that game, actually. Mind trying to convince me or point me to where I should be looking in that game where you overdefended?

I recall going back and explaining the same thing several times. Want me to quote things?

Kitty, join the Netopalis wagon. Let's see if Nikanor has the kahunas to stay, or whether he will bail, now he knows that if Neto flips scum, he'll be next.

BM