Open 169 - [Alternating 9P] OVER

[RayFrost]

Ray:

Um, what? A policy lynch is lynching someone for being unhelpful, annoying, anti-town whatever, but NOT scummy. That is what the khamisa lynch is to me.

Its a win win situation? We don't know khamisa is scum. If we get rid of an anti town player and get mafia closer to their win condition, thats a win for town? What alignment exactly are you?

Khamisa has been scummy by being anti-town.

If I think somebody is scum, and they aren't being in any way beneficial to town, then it's a win-win, in my mind.

One way, they flip scum and woot, we killed scum.

The other way, we kill a townie that has been virtually useless and will no longer be distracting or a target for scum to use in the future (say, lylo).

In essence, assuming we mislynch today and tomorrow (but don't lynch khamisa), then we are letting khamisa fly by through lylo on the off chance that being so anti-town, unhelpful, and harmful to town is actually all

such

a townie thing to do. So, basically, letting khamisa fly by on being "too scummy" to be scum. Hence the logical fallacy comment that you have conveniently avoided replying to.

[Paradoxombie]

I'm trying to decide if khamisa is just a poor player or considerably scummy. He should at least have some sort of suspicions at this point.

She didn't play like this when I've played with her before.

Well all three of us were in Open 146 where she only had one vote all game.

Which means she has played like this when you played with her before.

unvote, vote: Empking

?

[RayFrost]

Hi paradox!!!

why don't you weigh in on the dank & me debate?

[Lynx The Antithesis]

Paradox if she exhibited this behavior before then why have you been pressing her for it. She was town in that role correct? And why did you put a question mark after your vote on empking?

Dank, please tell me who you suggest would be a more profitable lynch in place of khamisa.

[dank]

Ray's strong insistence on what he basically calls a policy lynch pulls me back in his direction once again. I really don't like how he's saying that town wins if khamisa happens to be a townie and we mislynch. I'm sorry, a mislynch of a townie does not help my win condition. She is not sabotaging our game, she just has a more cautious playing style, a style which, like paradox said, matches other games. I honestly can't fathom mafia purposefully playing this kind of game on d1; it makes no sense to me.

Ray's last few posts were very interesting. He really wants this lynch to go through, on what I think is a very weak case. He seems to be really grasping at straws to explain her scumminess, when all it is is just antitown. Again, his points of 1. lynching an unhelpful townie as being good for town, and 2. anti-town = scummy really seem like scum trying to hang on to what looked like an easy lynch as it might start to slip away.

Of course, i'm not proclaiming Ray as scum at this point, there's plenty more to analyze, and it'll be interesting to see what happens next, but Ray is prime suspect at the moment. Call it blatant defense of khamisa if you'd like, but this makes alot more sense to me than a khamisa lynch.

vote: RayFrost

Would very much like to hear from the rest of you about the latest discussion we've been having.

[Paradoxombie]

Paradox if she exhibited this behavior before then why have you been pressing her for it. She was town in that role correct? And why did you put a question mark after your vote on empking?

Well I was kinda lazy about checking the games we were in, and pressing people is it's own reward. Looking back, she was actually less passive in another game the three of us were in where she was scum. That seems more significant to me, but I'm unsure if I want to change the lynch this close to deadline, because there are still aspects of her play that bother me, like her interest in lynching the claimed doc.

[dank]

Paradox if she exhibited this behavior before then why have you been pressing her for it. She was town in that role correct? And why did you put a question mark after your vote on empking?

Well I was kinda lazy about checking the games we were in, and pressing people is it's own reward. Looking back, she was actually less passive in another game the three of us were in where she was scum. That seems more significant to me, but I'm unsure if I want to change the lynch this close to deadline, because there are still aspects of her play that bother me, like her interest in lynching the claimed doc.

Why would close proximity to the deadline stop us from making a more informed, and perhaps better, choice?

[Paradoxombie]

Hi paradox!!!

why don't you weigh in on the dank & me debate?

Khamisa is likely to be the best lynch in my mind, but I share dank's concerns.

[Paradoxombie]

Paradox if she exhibited this behavior before then why have you been pressing her for it. She was town in that role correct? And why did you put a question mark after your vote on empking?

Well I was kinda lazy about checking the games we were in, and pressing people is it's own reward. Looking back, she was actually less passive in another game the three of us were in where she was scum. That seems more significant to me, but I'm unsure if I want to change the lynch this close to deadline, because there are still aspects of her play that bother me, like her interest in lynching the claimed doc.

Why would close proximity to the deadline stop us from making a more informed, and perhaps better, choice?

Because it's hard to simultaneously scumhunt and line up an agreeable lynch. Which is also why I'm hesitant to go after Empking.

unvote, vote: Khamisa

[RayFrost]

Ray's strong insistence on what he basically calls a policy lynch pulls me back in his direction once again. I really don't like how he's saying that town wins if khamisa happens to be a townie and we mislynch. I'm sorry, a mislynch of a townie does not help my win condition. She is not sabotaging our game, she just has a more cautious playing style, a style which, like paradox said, matches other games. I honestly can't fathom mafia purposefully playing this kind of game on d1; it makes no sense to me.

Ray's last few posts were very interesting. He really wants this lynch to go through, on what I think is a very weak case. He seems to be really grasping at straws to explain her scumminess, when all it is is just antitown. Again, his points of 1. lynching an unhelpful townie as being good for town, and 2. anti-town = scummy really seem like scum trying to hang on to what looked like an easy lynch as it might start to slip away.

Of course, i'm not proclaiming Ray as scum at this point, there's plenty more to analyze, and it'll be interesting to see what happens next, but Ray is prime suspect at the moment. Call it blatant defense of khamisa if you'd like, but this makes alot more sense to me than a khamisa lynch.

vote: RayFrost

Would very much like to hear from the rest of you about the latest discussion we've been having.

Hi dank!

Busting out the chainsaw for your friend so soon?

So... your case on me is pushing the lynch of somebody I think is scum and, even if they aren't, wouldn't help town anyway. Okay, I admit that I'm aggressively pushing the case of my biggest suspect. What a shock.

Also, I've pushed cases that are far worse than this one (check my first game, for example: pushed for a lynch on somebody I had no evidence against... got fought down, but it turns out they actually were scum, and they got lynched at a later date) as town, so yeah.

[dank]

Your counterargument is that your cases are typically crappy?

[RayFrost]

Hi paradox!!!

why don't you weigh in on the dank & me debate?

Khamisa is likely to be the best lynch in my mind, but I share dank's concerns.

Dank's concerns that I'm scum that's being hyperaggressive, reaching, and overall making a complete and total idiot of himself if this goes wrong? That about sums it up, except I'm town.

[RayFrost]

Your counterargument is that your cases are typically crappy?

Nope.

My counterargument is that you finding me scummy for doing this weird thing called

pushing for the lynch of the one I find to be the scummiest player

is, in fact, a crappy case.

[dank]

Do notice rayfrost tossing aside the two page discussion about khamisa being scummy vs antitown, in favor of saying i'm voting him just because he's confident in his case.

It's very interesting.

[Paradoxombie]

Hi paradox!!!

why don't you weigh in on the dank & me debate?

Khamisa is likely to be the best lynch in my mind, but I share dank's concerns.

Dank's concerns that I'm scum that's being hyperaggressive, reaching, and overall making a complete and total idiot of himself if this goes wrong? That about sums it up, except I'm town.

I just meant I'm often second guessing whether what I think is scummy really is reason to lynch someone.

[Tenchi]

---

VOTE COUNT

(4) Khamisa - Empking, CSL, Lynx The Antithesis, Paradoxombie

(1) RayFrost - dank

Not Voting: Khamisa, Haylen, Deuxieme Octopus, RayFrost

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch
DEADLINE: September 28, 2009 6:30 PM PST

[RayFrost]

Do notice rayfrost tossing aside the two page discussion about khamisa being scummy vs antitown, in favor of saying i'm voting him just because he's confident in his case.

It's very interesting.

Do notice dank has argued the semantics between anti-town and scummy for two pages with me and is somehow using said semantic to call me scummy.

It's very interesting.

[Paradoxombie]

Do notice rayfrost tossing aside the two page discussion about khamisa being scummy vs antitown, in favor of saying i'm voting him just because he's confident in his case.

It's very interesting.

Do notice dank has argued the semantics between anti-town and scummy for two pages with me and is somehow using said semantic to call me scummy.

It's very interesting.

You're reacting quite a bit to one vote. No need to lose composure.

[Paradoxombie]

[RayFrost]

Do notice rayfrost tossing aside the two page discussion about khamisa being scummy vs antitown, in favor of saying i'm voting him just because he's confident in his case.

It's very interesting.

Do notice dank has argued the semantics between anti-town and scummy for two pages with me and is somehow using said semantic to call me scummy.

It's very interesting.

You're reacting quite a bit to one vote. No need to lose composure.

Eh, I'm calm. I'm just defending myself blow for blow

[Paradoxombie]

Do notice rayfrost tossing aside the two page discussion about khamisa being scummy vs antitown, in favor of saying i'm voting him just because he's confident in his case.

It's very interesting.

Do notice dank has argued the semantics between anti-town and scummy for two pages with me and is somehow using said semantic to call me scummy.

It's very interesting.

You're reacting quite a bit to one vote. No need to lose composure.

Eh, I'm calm. I'm just defending myself blow for blow

But then your response feeds the conflict, rather than alleviating it. Looking town isn't the town's primary responsibility, it's scum's.

fos

[RayFrost]

Do notice rayfrost tossing aside the two page discussion about khamisa being scummy vs antitown, in favor of saying i'm voting him just because he's confident in his case.

It's very interesting.

Do notice dank has argued the semantics between anti-town and scummy for two pages with me and is somehow using said semantic to call me scummy.

It's very interesting.

You're reacting quite a bit to one vote. No need to lose composure.

Eh, I'm calm. I'm just defending myself blow for blow

But then your response feeds the conflict, rather than alleviating it. Looking town isn't the town's primary responsibility, it's scum's.

fos

Ummm... this has nothing to do with "looking town" at all, for me. I'm pushing my case for khamisa while dank is pushing his case fo rme. I defend myself while trying to attack khamisa, and dank is attacking me while defend khamisa.

They are intertwined, so to separate one part from the other is difficult at best.

[Lynx The Antithesis]

Ray, Dank is pushing you because you claimed that it's a win win to lynch khamisa. Regardless of whether he comes up scum or town. This is wrong because even if a townie acts against the town he is still valuable for the majority over scum. It's anti-town in itself to not care about lynching a townie.

Looking town isn't the town's primary responsibility, it's scum's. fos

This isn't necessarily true. Vanilla's should try to look as town as possible to draw the nightkill away from the power roles.

You are right though, Paradox, that it's a little too late to orchestrate another lynch properly. A hasty wagon switch this close to deadline would be chaotic and probably lead us to an even worse choice. Khamisa isn't helping with the lack of any solid participation.

[Empking]

I'm trying to decide if khamisa is just a poor player or considerably scummy. He should at least have some sort of suspicions at this point.

She didn't play like this when I've played with her before.

Well all three of us were in Open 146 where she only had one vote all game.

Which means she has played like this when you played with her before.

unvote, vote: Empking

?

I really can't remember alkl the games I've played.

I could only recall one specific game when I made that post.

[Paradoxombie]

Ummm... this has nothing to do with "looking town" at all, for me. I'm pushing my case for khamisa while dank is pushing his case fo rme. I defend myself while trying to attack khamisa, and dank is attacking me while defend khamisa.

They are intertwined, so to separate one part from the other is difficult at best.

Yeah but to me it seems like it became more serious after he put a vote on you.

You say you're going "blow for blow" but the argument is his responsibility more than yours. Going blow for blow in his argument on you makes it look like your trying to prove yourself innocent now.


Lynx, the best way to appear townie is to concentrate on scumhunting over making arguments about why youre doing the right things. For me anyway. Someone clearly trying to look townie is being counterproductive in a game with me because that's going to attract my attention.