Mini 856 - Star Control: Zeta Sextantis - Over

[Locke Lamora]

/confirm.

[Locke Lamora]

Keelie, I hear what you're saying. I generally avoid stuff like saying I'm Town and/or commenting on deaths at the start of a Day as any alignment simply because it's not worth the bother I'll get for that sort of thing as any alignment. I suppose I felt a little looser with that tendency than usual because it was the beginning of the game. I would say it's a personal nulltell - like slightly breaking out of my overall, town-scum-whatever meta in general - but consider it how you will.

If you don't think it's worth the bother, why the change of heart? Isn't this the stage of the game when people often pick up on looser comments as a way of getting discussion started?

Excedrin: what would your read on Papa Zito be if he entirely failed to stop looking scummy?

[Locke Lamora]

If there's anyone who's overexpaining here, it's you

Yeah, you've convinced me. My case against Excedrin was a bit too much of a stretch, I'm actually much happier with a vote on you.

Unvote.
Vote: Dry-fit

So you think you were reaching with your tell on Excedrin?

[Locke Lamora]

Excedrin: do you think KMD isn't that serious with his vote and accusation? If you do think he's serious, what do you mean by 'solid'?

[Locke Lamora]

There's nothing scummy about the votes on you either. Porkens clearly wanted a reaction. Excedrin is obviously a newer player and newer players tend to be either VERY opportunistic or VERY cautious.

Either? So his sarcasm isn't scummy?

[Locke Lamora]

Zito wasn't newbish in Boost 2.

Locke, guess I mis-spoke lol.

Or you don't really think his sarcasm is scummy, you were just doing it to get a reaction.

Sigma: so Porkens is less scummy because he hasn't posted at all since you asked him a question than if he'd posted and hadn't answered it? Yes, that is another question.

[Locke Lamora]

Thanks. I'm very proud of it.

I'm dubious of KMD. I know that his confident "Zito's scum" stance was probably to get a rise out of Zito as much as anything but I think he's then used whatever he can get from Zito's reaction to make him look scummy. That's why I challenged him on the sarcasm comment; it just looked like point-scoring to make Zito look bad, dropping one of his earlier points against Zito in the process which indicates to me that he never really thought it was scummy in the first place. Now that I think about it, I'm going to go ahead and:

Vote: KMD

Do you stand by your statement that Zito's "Me?!? Nooo" style reaction is scummy?

[Locke Lamora]

If Papa Zito

doesn't

come up with a valid and sensible explanation, he will of course remain looking like scum. But if he

does

come up with a valid and sensible explanation, he fits right into Excedrins proposed scenario of a likely scum-behaviour.

This is exactly why I asked Excedrin what he'd make of a player who failed in his attempts to look less scummy.

Thanks. I'm very proud of it.

I'm dubious of KMD. I know that his confident "Zito's scum" stance was probably to get a rise out of Zito as much as anything but I think he's then used whatever he can get from Zito's reaction to make him look scummy. That's why I challenged him on the sarcasm comment; it just looked like point-scoring to make Zito look bad, dropping one of his earlier points against Zito in the process which indicates to me that he never really thought it was scummy in the first place. Now that I think about it, I'm going to go ahead and:

Vote: KMD

Do you stand by your statement that Zito's "Me?!? Nooo" style reaction is scummy?

His sarcastic response was scummy. Not as scummy as Rising though. Doing "whatever I can" to make Zito look scummy is a misrep. Hell, I'm not even voting the guy right now.

Ok, "whatever I can" was perhaps too much. Nevertheless, what basically happened was that he said the sarcasm argument was stupid, and you came back with "well, so is your voting argument". If you'd had any conviction in thinking his sarcasm is scummy, I would have thought you'd work a little harder to refute it. Also:

A little sarcasm for fun isn't scummy. Sarcasm that shows you are annoyed at the attacks against you

is

scummy. Town would just say it's a bad argument, shrug it off, and scumhunt. Again, who do you think is scum?

Do town players generally react less to bad arguments than scum players?

[Locke Lamora]

So essentially you think Zito is scummy because he's not playing very well?

[Locke Lamora]

Kast: I think Porkens' vote was a case of seeing where KMD was going with Zito and adding some extra pressure to see his response. Excedrin's was similar, in my opinion. Zito was visibly getting annoyed at KMD's method of attack so I can see why they would want to pressure him; equally, I can see why Zito thinks they're opportunistic, because they were playing on his frustration with KMD. All in all, a null-tell for me. Plum's vote I like less, mainly because I don't really see how Zito was 'pushing BS'. I don't think it's an uncommon townie reaction to see two people quickly hop on your bandwagon and think that at least one of them is opportunistic scum. I'd like to hear what's so BS about it.

That said, I need to read some Zito meta to determine if this is really very unlike his town self. I'll check out Boost 2 as soon as I can.

[Locke Lamora]

Here Rising is playing the semantics game. If he is wrong, he just changes the definition of a key word and suddenly he is not technically wrong, just misunderstood.

Is being 'wrong' scummy, or is it just the manner in which he was wrong?

Plum: two things. First of all, why is it not opportunistic for scum to vote for a townie who's clearly getting annoyed with the suspicion on him to the point that it makes him look scummy? Secondly, can you tell me where Zito said that NOT being on his wagon is a towntell, rather than being on his wagon is scummy?

[Locke Lamora]

First of all, I'll go ahead and:

unvote

Having read Zito's meta, KMD's assertion that he usually scumhunts more seems accurate. I think Zito's reaction could well be that he's simply a frustrated townie annoyed by the argument against him and I'm still a little uncomfortable about the way KMD attacked Zito but not to the point where I want a KMD lynch.

Porkens: what did you think the strategic benefit to town of revealing this info would be? What do you think is the point of being put on an anti-town ship with powers you can't use and that you can just blow up on night 1?

[Locke Lamora]

That's my main problem with this: it's very weird. Either a) there's someone in this game who that makes sense to, and if you're on a scum ship that may well be scum, or b) you've got ulterior motives in trying to get someone to pick you up. I'm leaning towards the latter because I just don't see why you would be given the option to simply blow a ship up that's of no use to you personally.

Mod: will we be told when ships are blown up and what alignment those ships are?

[Locke Lamora]

I don't really see the case on Dry-fit at all. It seems pretty tentative and there's not a lot of weight behind it. I'm not sure why Sigma is worried about Dry-fit in 162 when the reasons he gave don't exactly reek of scum. The more I read Zito's meta, the more I agree that he's reacting to votes differently in this game than he previously has done as town. I think the nature of the bandwagon is slightly different here but even so, there's a significant difference in his attitude between this game and Mini 817, where he seemed far more casual even being at L-2. I'm getting the feeling that one of the wall-of-texters is scum but it's hard to get a read when there are so many pointless arguments and semantic debates to wade through. I can't help but feel that at least one of them is doing it deliberately to bog the game down and look like a committed townie at the same time.

Given all that, I will:

Vote: Papa Zito

[Locke Lamora]

I wouldn't say it's just Rising. I think Kast has also made some pretty sizeable posts and I found Plum's 159 to be very difficult to wade through at certain points, particularly this:

Because Sigma actually posted both clauses ("convince other players to vote your lynch target" and "convincing players that you've found scum?") before Dry-fit's comments and Sigma's actual posts make it pretty clear that he equates the two clauses. It's not in any way a case of Dry-fit "not remembering things right", it's a case of Dry-fit not liking the vote or the little bit that expounded upon the vote/reexplained it. Also Post #43

does

imply a misrepresentation of Sigma's part to Dry-fit's mind clearly indicated when Dry-fit stated his entirely different (from Sigma's) interpretation of Kmd's post and questions him with implications of Sigma-suspicion/incredulosity at Sigma's interpretation of said post.

I can't help but feel that could have been said in less words, or at least worded in a way that didn't make you feel like you had to read it six times. That might just be playstyle, of course, so I'll be reading up on these players as much as I can.

[Locke Lamora]

[quote="Kast]@LL-
-Do you have any suspects other than Zito?
-You have been gathering information on other players for the majority of the game. Do you have any analysis of this information available?
-You dislike the Dry-Fit wagon. Do you dislike it more than the Kast wagon?
To be clear:
-You would like to lynch Zito.
-Are you willing to lynch others to secure a lynch rather than no lynch?
[/quote]

To answer 1 and 2 together: I'm finding Porkens' claim and the way he put the information out there suspect. I don't really see that much scumhunting going on from him and he's pretty much tunnelled on Kast since that claim and vote. It's also enabled him to contribute quite a lot in terms of discussion without actually doing any scumhunting. I'm feeling better about KMD than I was because I agree with his assessment of Zito's meta but I still don't like his 'your reasoning is crap too' type post. I'm getting a bad feeling from Plum; some of her posts are quite roundabout and I think she was misrepping Zito with her comment about not being on his wagon being a towntell (my question about which she still hasn't answered, incidentally).

As for your wagon, I dislike people following Porkens onto Kast because I don't think he's by any means obvtown and I'm particularly dubious of Excedrin's willingness to follow his suspicions. As to the validity of the objections raised against you, I'm finding your posts to be longer than is necessary and I think it's unhelpful this close to the deadline but without meta knowledge of you I don't think it's lynch-worthy.

I would like to lynch Zito; I read /invitational 2 at his recommendation and I still found his reaction to pressure there to be different to his reaction here. His manner as a townie in all three games I've seen seems clearly more relaxed to me than he has been in this game. I would be willing to lynch others to avoid a no-lynch.

[Locke Lamora]

This game feels like it's unusually crazy to me. Suspects are flying around left, right and centre and wagons are appearing and disappearing in a matter of hours.

KRW's vote is spectacularly horrible and combined with her extreme lurking she's looking pretty lynch-worthy. I really don't like the speed of the wagon and some of the reactions to it on both sides, though. Several points I'd like to address:

Plum: I felt better about KMD attacking Zito because I agreed with his meta assessment. I still think he was point-scoring off Zito to make Zito look bad but given that I agree with KMD's meta against Zito I'm less sure that it's scummy.

Excedrin: can you at least give us some examples of how people have reacted to KRW that give you that pro-town read? I don't see what your aim is in throwing a gut read out there in the face of a rapidly building wagon less than 48 hours from the deadline.

Porkens: why throw out your information in an attempt to give the town something to discuss and then push ahead with a policy lynch? Why the vote on me in the middle of that vote flurry?

Kast: do you think a KRW lynch is preferable to a Zito lynch despite the lack of information we'll get from it? You strike me as a player who likes quantifiable information: who suspects who, first, second, third suspects, etc. Why vote someone who's barely posted and whose lynch may tell us very little about the scumteam as a whole?

[Locke Lamora]

Apologies for the absence, having difficulties getting online for enough time.

Let me get this straight: in addition to KRW's red ship, Porkens, sigma, Rosso Carne and Dry-fit are all also on red ships, and Porkens, sigma and Dry-fit all claim to be town?

[Locke Lamora]

If people think there are going to be 5 red ships, as seems to be the case, then they are all accounted for (not that difficult to count, Excedrin). Either the scum are on those 5 red ships, which means the scum are in Porkens, sigma, Rosso and Dry-fit, or there are scum on town ships as well as town on scum ships. Rosso's a pointless vote at this stage and Dry-fit needs to full-claim. I'm not going to vote Dry-fit without a vote count but I'm not buying this 'I guess I'm a miller' stuff. I think it's more likely that he claimed red ship to get an easy excuse for a future investigation.

[Locke Lamora]

I have to confess I am slipping behind with this game. I won't be able to get on until Monday and I was going to come and vote Dry-fit with my final post for the day but as he's already at L-1 I will hold off. For the record, I do not buy his claim and I agree that his attitude towards red ships is completely inconsistent with his own claim. I'm no expert on the flavour of this game but based on what I know, the claim seems incomplete and implausible; in short, it reads like KRW's as a player trying to fakeclaim flavour they don't know much about.

Mod: will be V/LA until Monday.

[Locke Lamora]

Well, at least I was right about KMD, not that my investigation did any good. I have to say I fell behind in this one and made myself look scummy by not contributing enough. Great job to the town for winning and thanks to Spyrex for modding, the setup was pretty cool, although it might have helped if I knew SC better!