California Trilogy: City of Angels - Off Stage (Game Over)

[StarKiss]

~dram~

[MrJellyLee]

[PJ Posting]

Before I forget, I'm not sure if anybody has asked about this yet:

Your ignoring a win condition.

MafiaJin, please explain what you meant when you said this. If you have already explained, please link us to that explanation.

[Gaspar]

This bothers me for a number of reasons. I understand that a "religion" such as "Scientology" can lend itself towards thinking there is a "cult," but there is evidence against that -- such as the fact that cult members don't generally say "I think there's a cult" when they know they're about to be lynched. Furthermore, I feel that eliminating an alignment as being "mafia-like" based on flavor is ridiculous. Where in the rules of Mafia does it say that a Mafia has to be "militant" in flavor?

But we also have evidence agaisnt Scientology being the mafia, what with CKD's claim. I doubt he'd have given a fake name to the mafia, it's a master plan to get himself killed <<

Not really. I don't think anybody suspects CKD for saying "There is a Screen Mafia Guild."

And if CKD is a Scientologist, claiming the existence of a Screen Mafia Guild has already spread misinformation among the town, which is :goodposting: for the scumbags.




Guys, when you say "X wouldn't do this, because it would get themselves killed,"

STOP AND THINK ABOUT ENDGAME SELECTION AND MECHANICS.

No matter how many [Something Else]s are alive when Endgame hits,

ONLY TWO OF THEM CAN BE ALIVE IN ENDGAME

.

So saying "This person wouldn't do this as scum because it would get themselves killed" is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT if they would have to die because their scumbuddies are the ones headed into endgame.

[hewitt]

I agree, I don't believe that Scientology and the Screen Mafia Guild are the same scum group. If they are then that means CKD is lying and that would be quite the silly move for him. And Tom Cruise was recruited into Scientology himself by Mimi Rogers so he doesn't have to be a recruiter for it to be a cult.

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

So saying "This person wouldn't do this as scum because it would get themselves killed" is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT if they would have to die because their scumbuddies are the ones headed into endgame.

You've just added another reason as to why the scum was outnumbered on camera in the previous scene. You'd expect them to go in there and sacrifice themselves. But they turned over and let us have the point without saying a word. Oh wait. I forgot about Elmosaurian.

He's the scumikaze.

-DGB

[Gaspar]

DGB, I think it's silly to assume that the people who voted for Door #1 are necessarily protown. You seem to be treating them as infallible non-scums, when "scums pushing the right Door" -- while sub-optimal -- is not out of the question.

[Gaspar]

EBWOP: I want to clarify my own stance. I am inclined to believe that at least three of the people who voted for Door #1 are protown for a variety of reasons. I feel that scums voting for Door #1 is a poor play because when I put myself into the mindset of the scums, I can't think of a reason to push Door #1 other than "to look more protown." However, I don't know what the scums know about the game, setup, decisions, and endgame, so I'm trying not to discount the possibility that "Scum voting for Door #1" is a reasonable (even good) play for the scums to make.

I hope that made things clearer, and not murkier.

[Mr. Grey]

Mod Note:

Clarification on Endgame:

Any living Actors who are not chosen for the Endgame will be "fired". Their Alignments will not be revealed until the game is over.

[Gaspar]

Bleh. Not the answer I was hoping for.


I asked Mr. Grey if the alignments of Living-Players-Not-Chosen-For-Endgame would be revealed to those who are in Endgame. That largely invalidates my previous point about suicidal scums. I have to stop and think about this for a few.

[curiouskarmadog]

ok, rereading endgame rules, it is most important to have the most protown people on screen as possible....

[Gaspar]

Not necessarily, CKD.

If we leave all the scums Off-Stage, they could lead a series of mislynches. Remember that regardless of what Decisions we make in Scenes, if all but five Innocents die, we wind up in Worst Possible Endgame.

[MrJellyLee]

[PJ Posting]

Been doing some thinking (surprise) and here is what I end up with:

CKD only claimed to be offered a position specifically with the "Screen Mafia Guild"

after Scene One was completed

-- i.e., after it was dreadfully clear that KY Krew was going to be lynched. If the Scientologists are a Cult, then I now doubt CKD is part of the Cult.

Why?

Because unless he was actually telling the truth (which I would doubt if he is a Scientologist -- why would mith seriously give him the opportunity to switch to a different scum group?), then he would necessarily be making up a name for the Mafia. And if there

is

a Mafia (which I presume CKD would have no reason to know), then the Mafia would know CKD was lying scum -- unless their name just

happened

to be the Screen Mafia Guild.

What I come down to: It's difficult to see why a Scientologist would make up a name for a Mafia Group risking that there might be an actual mafia group who would pretty much know him to be lying.

That said, I can still see reasons for such a lie -- for example, if the Scientologists know they are the only scum group and want to spread confusion (such that a town Vigilante, for example, might be seen as the Mafia, etc.).

But at the same time, if the Scientologists are a Cult, I just plain do not understand why KY Krew would hype the existence of a Cult.

I think it is clear that KY Krew was a Scientologist on Day One, presumably before any recruiting could have occurred. But he was not denoted to be the "Leader" or any such thing. This makes me doubt that the Scientologists recruit, or in the alternative, there must have been multiple Scientologists in the Cult at the beginning of the game. I don't think Mr. Grey would balance a game like this (where the Town is trying to lynch down to 2 [Something Else]'s) with a Cult in mind while allowing for that Cult to be completely extracted on Day One.

/ end rambling

Pre-Post Edit:

Actually, the more I think about it, it

might

be a semi-smart idea to put as many pro-town people On Screen as possible. I can only imagine that it would be very easy to pick out scum if they are forced to manufacture mislynches largely by themselves.

Unless I'm the one lynched, of course. Then, by God, there will be Hell to pay.

/ end subsequent rambling

[MrJellyLee]

[PJ Posting]

Actually, no, that's stupid. I stick by original thought: try to keep On Screen and Off Screen as a good mix. I think we might as well try to get the best result in both threads.

[Gaspar]

[PJ Posting]

Actually, no, that's stupid. I stick by original thought: try to keep On Screen and Off Screen as a good mix. I think we might as well try to get the best result in both threads.

Bingo.

Your thought processes in your long post just now are nearly identical to what I went through last night. I also noted that CKD claimed the name "Screen Mafia Guild" after KY Krew mucked up Scene One, and I reasoned out that Krew has no reason to claim that there's a Cult if he's part of a Cult.

Like I said, I think either:
Cruise was acting alone and there is an SMG; OR
CKD (as a Scientologist, aka [Something Else], aka the only scumgroup), and made up the idea of an SMG to confuse the town after Krew's screwup and claim that there may be a Cult

The idea of trying to push a Cult, then passing off Mafia kills as "Vigilante Kills" intrigues me. It's an excellent ploy by scums to make. Keep in mind that just because there wasn't a kill Pre-Scene-Two, doesn't mean the scums can't kill.

I'm still leaning towards the idea that [Something Else] is Scientologists, and that CKD and Elmosaurian are both part of this group.

[curiouskarmadog]

lol,

think I have pretty much made my decision.

I have picked 5, 3 I feel are town, 1 neutral, and 1 I think is scum.

any objections to that break down and why?

do you think I should provide the list before the scene starts..why or why not?

shall we move to the, what particular cues mean (audio and visual) part of this conversation...even though I dont think we used any that we came up with last time, might be a good idea.

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

DGB, I think it's silly to assume that the people who voted for Door #1 are necessarily protown. You seem to be treating them as infallible non-scums, when "scums pushing the right Door" -- while sub-optimal -- is not out of the question.

That's not how it came down (re: Elmosaurian) but I would be willing to forgive a player that picked door #2, while giving zero town cred to players that picked door #1.

But all you needed is a bit of momentum one direction (door #1 or door #2) and the apathetic masses would follow... and the apathetic masses did follow... except that there was little to no momentum for door #2. I find that very telling.

There was little to no town cred to be earned by leaning towards door #1, and little to no risk by leaning towards door #2.

[Gaspar]

Okay, I must have misunderstood what you meant. I thought you were saying that the act of voting Door #1 itself was protown, which would have concerned me.

I do understand your point about "Why was there zero initial momentum towards Door #2?" I am inclined to believe that a large portion of the players On Camera for Scene Two are Innocent, though I'm very hesitant to say that Elmosaurian is the only scumbag who was On Camera based on this issue.

[Gaspar]

CKD, I'd like to see the list simply because I want to know exactly what you think of the five people. You may have already commented on how you feel about their alignments, but getting to see it before I get shunted On Camera would be nice.

[elmosaurian]

Hi, I'll probably get back into this game in the next couple days. I didn't do much more than occasionally skim day 1, I was busier than I thought. Then I didn't think I could help much on day 2, since most of what happened on camera seemed dependent on off-stage reads, so I left it to Yos. Imma read up.

If you've got anything specific to ask me or so, please do?

Elmo

[curiouskarmadog]

CKD, I'd like to see the list simply because I want to know exactly what you think of the five people. You may have already commented on how you feel about their alignments, but getting to see it before I get shunted On Camera would be nice.

the question was do you want to see it before the scene starts and WHY?

once the scene starts, you will know because they will be in the scene...and I have no problem providing the 5th name (and reasons) after...what I want to know is why YOU want to know before the scene.

[Gaspar]

The reason I asked for the information ahead of time is solely so that I'll have definite, last-second opinions from you before I can no longer see this thread.

If you just want to give me a rundown of what you think of every player in the game, so that you can hide the identities of the 5 you selected, that's fine. In fact, that's better, because I get your thoughts on EVERYONE instead of just five people.

[Thok]

Posting partially just to show I exist.

Is it obvious from what CKD said that SMG (if it exists, which I agree is unclear) must be antitown? I know that mith doesn't have problems with roles that have misleading descriptions.

@MafiaJin: why did you say relatively little about your thoughts of the choice of door before your vote?

Also, I agree with any sentiment that I should be kept off-screen: I don't think anybody believes that it's a good idea for me to on screen for three scenes in a row, which is likely if I'm sent on screen today.

(Will answer SL's question about posting a scum list later.)

[MafiaJin]

Ok the whole cult discussion is stupid. Lets all read the rules again: (I cannot quote the mod so I am summarizing)

During endgame 7 actors are chosen: 2 something else, 5 innocent.

Therefore, how the hell can there be another alignment? There could I suppose be 3rd party players who win or lose before endgame (whom the neutral options during on-camera favor? /WIFOM)- but that is it. By the way, with the evidence of no night kills, I would venture to say that it is even MORE imperative to get on screen decisions correct rather than off screen lynches. 7 Scenes with 7 deaths means we will have 13 or so people left assuming just the one lynch death per day. I find it unlikely we can remove all but 2 of the mafia before then because of the mass of people they have to hide behind.


I would further venture to guess this is the reason why it was stated that modkills will not hurt the setup that much. If 2 people were modkilled for instance, all that would happen is we would reach endgame with 11 instead of 13. Endgame would still be played with 7 of the 20. Perhaps bad decisions will lead to someone dying but I doubt it.


Therefore, I would hazard a guess to say that lynches are not nearly as important as on camera decisions are. This is not your standard mafia game- stop proving conclusions based on that as a foundation.

Furthermore if the Assistant producer can maintain anonymity and be put into endgame that is a huge advantage for us as we have a person that needs to be CCed or be cleared.

@PJ- I said that in response to Gaspar who was saying that on screen is unimportant. I accused him of ignoring a win condition- that condition being "best conditions for winning" by way of getting good on camera decisions. He was indeed ignoring that as he was solely concerned with lynches at the time. In fact I think that is by far the best path to winning we can take.


I need to head back to work, will post more later. I know I have more stuff to respond to. I will elaborate on my working theory about this game then.

PS: All the on camera posts were by me.

PSS: CKD- Picking those people is not that easy, eh? Expect to be criticized for whoever you picked. The rational for my choices coming up later today.

-Sajin

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

can't we just like lynch all of da scum and win?

[Gaspar]

Sure, Pooksters. Tell me who the scums are and I'll lynch them.